Here is why Universal is a better value than Disney (get those flames ready!)

[macraven]

Oops! My bad! I didn't notice the board I was on.

i don't get it.......

how could you not know you were in the universal forums?


on the front disboard page, it lists all the different boards and then the threads pertaining to it.

 

[keishashadow]

The logic that Disney enforcing fastpass return times would make the standby line shorter and the logic that they should enforce it during busy times are both highly flawed. The rides have the same hourly capacity whether the park is busy or not. If they allocate 50% of the capacity for fastpasses, it is no different than any other day. At Soarin', the same amount of fastpasses are distributed on a Tuesday in September as on Easter or July 4th. There is no reason to differentiate busy from slow in that regard.

Late fastpasses do not make the line longer. If someone's window opens at 10AM and they don't come back, someone from the standby line is temporarily taking their spot on the ride, which lowers the standby line. When they come back at 6, they are taking a spot out of the standby line, BUT if they had come back at ten, it would have pushed the line out then. It makes no difference and is a net equal for the standby line because it's one for one (or two for two and so on). The only time the fastpass line holds up the standby line is when the ride has been down for a significant period of time, so hours of fastpasses are all entering the line at once, which brings standby to a halt because that late person's place in line was not taken, nobody rode during that time at all. Late fastpasses do not otherwise impact the standby line.

What is happening is you are standing in the line and are watching people get on faster than you and forming conclusions about that system that are rooted in frustration, not logic. If you just plan better and get your own fastpass, there is nothing to be frustrated about. It could not be easier or more convenient to use fastpass. Don't get in the standby line of a headline attraction more than two hours after the park opens or an hour before it closes. The frustration is self inflicted on the people complaining and can easily be avoided.

sorry, I beg to differ via logical frustration

Using your example - if the slots are allocated evenly for FP's/Stand-bys and a large number of 'expired' FP holders decide to return during a peak time, the FP line will be proportionally longer that it was designed to be (whatever the # of valid FP returns were doled out for that time period).

I assume you're correct with 1 FP - 1 standby ratio as you suggest, then those who legitimately have a FP return window for a busy time (say 6:00 p.m.) could easily be in line with several hundred additional FP guests that elect to wing their return time.

I'm not sure of the # of FPs doled out in any given time frame, but if you use example of 100 people in a given FP time frame & another 100 people decide to finally utilize their FPs @ the same time, it effectively could increase a FP line's window wait time by 100%. Therein lies the annoyance @ waiting in a long FP line & watching guests in the standby line move along faster many times on popular attractions.

perceived or not, why even bother printing a return time if they're not going to enforce it?

 

[nytimez]

sorry, I beg to differ via logical frustration

Using your example - if the slots are allocated evenly for FP's/Stand-bys and a large number of 'expired' FP holders decide to return during a peak time, the FP line will be proportionally longer that it was designed to be (whatever the # of valid FP returns were doled out for that time period).

I assume you're correct with 1 FP - 1 standby ratio as you suggest, then those who legitimately have a FP return window for a busy time (say 6:00 p.m.) could easily be in line with several hundred additional FP guests that elect to wing their return time.

I'm not sure of the # of FPs doled out in any given time frame, but if you use example of 100 people in a given FP time frame & another 100 people decide to finally utilize their FPs @ the same time, it effectively could increase a FP line's window wait time by 100%. Therein lies the annoyance @ waiting in a long FP line & watching guests in the standby line move along faster many times on popular attractions.

perceived or not, why even bother printing a return time if they're not going to enforce it?

It doesn't matter if half of these people came at 2 and half came at 6 or if they all came at 6 -- if you're in standby at 6, all of these people were ahead of you at some point and your wait time would be the same.

The only way you'd have a longer wait if all these people came at 6 is if there was a period of time between 2 and 6 during which there was no line at all -- if the ride zeroed out, effectively, for a period longer than it would take to board 100 people.

 

[keishashadow]

It doesn't matter if half of these people came at 2 and half came at 6 or if they all came at 6 -- if you're in standby at 6, all of these people were ahead of you at some point and your wait time would be the same.

The only way you'd have a longer wait if all these people came at 6 is if there was a period of time between 2 and 6 during which there was no line at all -- if the ride zeroed out, effectively, for a period longer than it would take to board 100 people.

i wasn't quibbling re the standby line (which i never do on an eticket ride anyway unless the parks are dead)

I specifically referenced the FP wait time not the standby, see below

if the slots are allocated evenly for FP's/Stand-bys and a large number of 'expired' FP holders decide to return during a peak time, the FP line will be proportionally longer that it was designed to be (whatever the # of valid FP returns were doled out for that time period).

I agree that the standby line isn't affected at all using a 1 - 1 pass-through, however, the FP line that can dramatically increase via expired FP holders joining the line imo.

 

[nytimez]

i wasn't quibbling re the standby line (which i never do on an eticket ride anyway unless the parks are dead)

I specifically referenced the FP wait time not the standby, see below

if the slots are allocated evenly for FP's/Stand-bys and a large number of 'expired' FP holders decide to return during a peak time, the FP line will be proportionally longer that it was designed to be (whatever the # of valid FP returns were doled out for that time period).

I agree that the standby line isn't affected at all using a 1 - 1 pass-through, however, the FP line that can dramatically increase via expired FP holders joining the line imo.

Sorry if I didn't quite get the nuance, but it still doesn't matter. The only way it matters is if the fast pass line zeroed out at some point.

Otherwise, all those people would still have been in front of you at some point in the day, and the line would still be where it was when you go there.

If you're going to suggest that people with expired Fast Passes would not show up at all rather than show up on time, you might have an argument -- but even then, I don't buy it. If Disney enforced return times, they would quickly adjust for the estimated number of people who don't return at all (they already do) and increase the number of FP tickets accordingly.

 

[MamaJessie]

Keep in mind that the $.85 refills are not on butterbeer. Butterbeer refills are in the $3.00 plus range if I remember correctly. The $.85 refills in the Butterbeer mugs are only on sodas in the parks and things such as iced tea, pear cider ect at the Three Broomsticks.

Ooh Pear Cider. It doesn't sound as good as Butterbeer, but still sounds good!

 

[Dolby1000]

I'm glad you experienced low wait times at Universal, as I plan on doing IoA and Disney on our next trip. But don't you think it's possible your wait times at Hollywood Studios had SOMETHING to do with the fact that you rode Star Tours 5 times? And it only just reopened after a major refurb less than a week ago? I'd kind of expect long lines on a basicaly brand new attraction. Speaking of Universal, HOW long was that line for Forbidden Journey during its first week?

I kept doing Star Tours because it was the only ride that, IMHO, had a manageable wait time. I could do that one 2-3 times while other rides, like TOT were over an hour and the FP return time was 3-4 hours later, and I didn't plan on being at the park that late. So, returing to ST over and over again gave me the most rides for my time.

Dolby1000

 

[Dolby1000]

With all due respect this is the Universal boards..I don't see alot of bashing other than the OP...It is No different than going over to the Disney theme park forum (I hang there too) and bashing Universal...which loads of people seem to like to do there,funnily enough by people that went once, went for a half day in the middle of a 14 day disney vacation or have never been there at all.

I am a bit confused, are you saying I am bashing Disney?

Nothing could be further from the truth, just because I felt Universal was a better value, I clearly said that I wasn't saying that Universal was better overall. This a a far, far cry from bashing anything.

And just because I am not a fan of the Fast Pass system and I'm critical of it, again, is not Disney bashing, it is just some constructive criticism.

Dolby1000

 

[tinydancer09]

first time i heard you say that about being nickled and dimed.

Haha. I mean I love Universal Orlando and I probably wouldn't mind as much if we weren't on a tight budget... and it also might be because I'm in the property management business and have my pet peeves...

I dislike rates that are not all inclusive. Yeah not everyone brings a car, not everyone wants a fridge or microwave... but when you have a nice hotel like that I just feel like it should come with all of those things as well as parking and internet.

We try and keep our food budget down by eating breakfast and either lunch or dinner in the room- but at $15 a piece for microwave and fridge per day it saves me nothing. Also, when we travel with our dogs we require a fridge and microwave (they're elderly and have meds and are picky eaters ) so we pay $30 extra bucks a day to bring them.

Anyways I hate rates that are not all inclusive. If they would up the fees $5 for the masses they could skip nickel and diming others and provide their guests with a more convenient stay. Thats my rant for the day thanks for listening


P.S.Also wanted to say that refils were 79 cents when we went in March and September last year.

 

[Victoria3]

The logic that Disney enforcing fastpass return times would make the standby line shorter and the logic that they should enforce it during busy times are both highly flawed. The rides have the same hourly capacity whether the park is busy or not. If they allocate 50% of the capacity for fastpasses, it is no different than any other day. At Soarin', the same amount of fastpasses are distributed on a Tuesday in September as on Easter or July 4th. There is no reason to differentiate busy from slow in that regard.

Late fastpasses do not make the line longer. If someone's window opens at 10AM and they don't come back, someone from the standby line is temporarily taking their spot on the ride, which lowers the standby line. When they come back at 6, they are taking a spot out of the standby line, BUT if they had come back at ten, it would have pushed the line out then. It makes no difference and is a net equal for the standby line because it's one for one (or two for two and so on). The only time the fastpass line holds up the standby line is when the ride has been down for a significant period of time, so hours of fastpasses are all entering the line at once, which brings standby to a halt because that late person's place in line was not taken, nobody rode during that time at all. Late fastpasses do not otherwise impact the standby line.

What is happening is you are standing in the line and are watching people get on faster than you and forming conclusions about that system that are rooted in frustration, not logic. If you just plan better and get your own fastpass, there is nothing to be frustrated about. It could not be easier or more convenient to use fastpass. Don't get in the standby line of a headline attraction more than two hours after the park opens or an hour before it closes. The frustration is self inflicted on the people complaining and can easily be avoided.

Where's the like button..

 

[ssuro11]

Lets just pretend Splash Mountain has an hourly capacity of 2000 people. Pre-Fastpass that would be 2000 people in standby that would get to ride in an hour. Today, for argument, 1000 standby and 1000 fastpass get on in an hour. If you still have the same number of standby line people, only 1000 people in the standby line are getting on which makes the standby line time wait longer. Fastpass does not increase hourly capacity or reduce the number of guests in the park. This makes the line longer. What do most people do that get fastpass? They sure dont take a seat on a bench and wait, the line up in another line. In conclusion, Fastpass makes the standby line way longer than it should be. I would personally like to see Fastpass gone or reduced in some way(Deluxe Hotel, Pay...??)

 

[nytimez]

Lets just pretend Splash Mountain has an hourly capacity of 2000 people. Pre-Fastpass that would be 2000 people in standby that would get to ride in an hour. Today, for argument, 1000 standby and 1000 fastpass get on in an hour. If you still have the same number of standby line people, only 1000 people in the standby line are getting on which makes the standby line time wait longer. Fastpass does not increase hourly capacity or reduce the number of guests in the park. This makes the line longer. What do most people do that get fastpass? They sure dont take a seat on a bench and wait, the line up in another line. In conclusion, Fastpass makes the standby line way longer than it should be. I would personally like to see Fastpass gone or reduced in some way(Deluxe Hotel, Pay...??)

The line is not longer. You're taking one space in line, whether you choose to get in standby or choose to use a fastpass.

No one argues that it increases load capacity or decreases wait times - it doesn't. It allows you to do other things with your wait, which is the point.

Why is this so hard for people to understand?

 

[Stitches]

first i stay at the motherland, then move to the darkside.

best of both worlds.

I had not been on these boards in a long while. Lots of new terminology to learn. I love it!

 

[Badge]

Oh, lot of catching up to do on this post since I last commented here.

First off, I am not "bashing" Disney by me saying I dislike the Fastpass system in its current form. I enjoy using it when I visit (which is not very often anymore) but it is still a very flawed system.

To me, Disney went overboard with the Fastpass system. For major rides, its fine to have, but the return times HAVE to be enforced! Maybe have like a one hour window becuase stuff can happen, but people should never be allowed to get into the fastpass line at 6pm and their fastpass return time was 11am. Sorry, thats just not how things work.

Think of the Fastpass system like waiting for a table to eat. So, you arrive and get your name put on the list (collect a Fastpass). They tell you your table will be ready in about 30 minutes so you go and take a walk around the area. Well, 30 minutes is up and your table is ready (your Fastpass return time is up), but you are still walking around and do not return. 5-10 minutes later, your table is given to the next person waiting in line. You finally make it back 20 minutes late, but your table is gone. They can NOT give you another table and you have to go to the back of the list because your spot that was reserved was already filled. So, basically your fastpass is a reservation. If you are not there, somebody from the Standby line takes your spot.

Sure you can argue that returning after your time is fine becuase no matter what, only so many people can ride within one hour. However, becuase the spot on the ride that was being held for you was given to another guest becuase YOU were late does not change anything. Disney has it planned out so only so many guests get Fastpasses within a certain time to limit the impact of the Standby line. So, if at 6pm in the evening you have 300-400 people with expired Fastpass arrive, the Standby line will come to a halt for a very long time which greatly affects wait times. Disney really needs to get strict with this system becuase it is getting out of control. People think that waiting way past they return time is even better, but it is not. It is affecting the people that did not get Fastpasses and it is also affecting the people that got Fastpasses and returned ON TIME.

Now to my other issue with the Fastpass system...rides that should never had them! I remember when I was younger being able to ride Peter Pan all the time. However, once the Fastpass system was added to a ride that had a line that virturely never stopped moving, the line became HUGE. The same thing happened with Haunted Mansion. Why on earth would they add a Fastpass system to a ride that never stops loading and unloading guests? It made the lines so much longer becuase now they have to stop the guests in the Standby line to allow the guests with Fastpass on.

Overall, the Fastpass system is great, when it works. However, the last couple of years the system has gotten out of control. Basically Universal got the system right by having almost every single ride in the park have a different car for Express guests and another for Standby. Sure you may have to wait 5-15 minutes to get on while using Express, but you did not have to wait for hours for your return time to come up so its not that big of deal.

Also, for everybody saying to remember what Disney was like without the Fastpass system, you are sort of correct, the lines were always about the same in length. However, standing around in the same spot for 10 minutes becuase they are letting Fastpass riders on is what the problem is. If the Standby line kept moving like it did before the Fastpass system, they would be no issues and the only way to make that happen is for Disney to fix their flawed system by not allowing people with extremely expired (1 hour or more) Fastpasses to ride the ride. My rant is over once again

 

[macraven]

I had not been on these boards in a long while. Lots of new terminology to learn. I love it!

it's from Mac 101.

and there's more......

 

[nytimez]

Oh, lot of catching up to do on this post since I last commented here.

First off, I am not "bashing" Disney by me saying I dislike the Fastpass system in its current form. I enjoy using it when I visit (which is not very often anymore) but it is still a very flawed system.

To me, Disney went overboard with the Fastpass system. For major rides, its fine to have, but the return times HAVE to be enforced! Maybe have like a one hour window becuase stuff can happen, but people should never be allowed to get into the fastpass line at 6pm and their fastpass return time was 11am. Sorry, thats just not how things work.

Think of the Fastpass system like waiting for a table to eat. So, you arrive and get your name put on the list (collect a Fastpass). They tell you your table will be ready in about 30 minutes so you go and take a walk around the area. Well, 30 minutes is up and your table is ready (your Fastpass return time is up), but you are still walking around and do not return. 5-10 minutes later, your table is given to the next person waiting in line. You finally make it back 20 minutes late, but your table is gone. They can NOT give you another table and you have to go to the back of the list because your spot that was reserved was already filled. So, basically your fastpass is a reservation. If you are not there, somebody from the Standby line takes your spot.

Sure you can argue that returning after your time is fine becuase no matter what, only so many people can ride within one hour. However, becuase the spot on the ride that was being held for you was given to another guest becuase YOU were late does not change anything. Disney has it planned out so only so many guests get Fastpasses within a certain time to limit the impact of the Standby line. So, if at 6pm in the evening you have 300-400 people with expired Fastpass arrive, the Standby line will come to a halt for a very long time which greatly affects wait times. Disney really needs to get strict with this system becuase it is getting out of control. People think that waiting way past they return time is even better, but it is not. It is affecting the people that did not get Fastpasses and it is also affecting the people that got Fastpasses and returned ON TIME.

Now to my other issue with the Fastpass system...rides that should never had them! I remember when I was younger being able to ride Peter Pan all the time. However, once the Fastpass system was added to a ride that had a line that virturely never stopped moving, the line became HUGE. The same thing happened with Haunted Mansion. Why on earth would they add a Fastpass system to a ride that never stops loading and unloading guests? It made the lines so much longer becuase now they have to stop the guests in the Standby line to allow the guests with Fastpass on.

Overall, the Fastpass system is great, when it works. However, the last couple of years the system has gotten out of control. Basically Universal got the system right by having almost every single ride in the park have a different car for Express guests and another for Standby. Sure you may have to wait 5-15 minutes to get on while using Express, but you did not have to wait for hours for your return time to come up so its not that big of deal.

Also, for everybody saying to remember what Disney was like without the Fastpass system, you are sort of correct, the lines were always about the same in length. However, standing around in the same spot for 10 minutes becuase they are letting Fastpass riders on is what the problem is. If the Standby line kept moving like it did before the Fastpass system, they would be no issues and the only way to make that happen is for Disney to fix their flawed system by not allowing people with extremely expired (1 hour or more) Fastpasses to ride the ride. My rant is over once again

You're getting it wrong -- the spot was never "held" for you. It's not like a table in a restaurant. It's not sitting empty, waiting for you to arrive.

Also, I don't get why Universal "got it right" by having a separate car for Express Pass. Surely, by your logic, those cars would still be better off going to non-Express Pass users?

 

[MouseEarsJenny]

I kept doing Star Tours because it was the only ride that, IMHO, had a manageable wait time. I could do that one 2-3 times while other rides, like TOT were over an hour and the FP return time was 3-4 hours later, and I didn't plan on being at the park that late. So, returing to ST over and over again gave me the most rides for my time.

Dolby1000

Mea culpa, and glad to hear Star Tours is still manageable after the refurb. I've always found that if you are at the turnstiles at opening, go straight to TSM and from there directly to ToT and RnRC you can easily manage all three major rides within an hour - it took an hour and twenty minutes with a group of 11. Then you can ride Star Tours and Muppets and anything else you'd like to experience.

Me, I have a hard time figuring out a touring plan for Universal, so I tend to get less done there. Just a case of your mileage may vary, I guess.

Oh, and beware of inflated standby times. Right after opening, ToT was listed at 50 minutes one morning, but it was actually a walk-on.

 

[ssuro11]

You're getting it wrong -- the spot was never "held" for you. It's not like a table in a restaurant. It's not sitting empty, waiting for you to arrive.

Also, I don't get why Universal "got it right" by having a separate car for Express Pass. Surely, by your logic, those cars would still be better off going to non-Express Pass users?

If your fastpass says return between 12 and 1 and it is 10 am, are you not waiting to ride? If you go get in another line, has this not created two people in line for that one paying guest? From what I have read, the fastpass line to standby ratio is something like 70(fastpass) to 30(standby). Toy story mania is good one to view if you think fastpass does not increase wait time. When I entered the building and saw the line(posted 30 min wait), i thought no way it could be this long. I waited in a line twice as long to get through security at the airport that took 10 mins.

What I think is telling as well, how many other parks tried a version of fastpass but abandoned it? I think Disney maintains it right now only due the large number of guests who believe it shortens lines and would complain. If you look at Fastpass in simple mathmatics it does nothing but increase the wait times for all standby lines. Intially it was done to get people out of lines and shopping/eating.

 

[Badge]

You're getting it wrong -- the spot was never "held" for you. It's not like a table in a restaurant. It's not sitting empty, waiting for you to arrive.

Also, I don't get why Universal "got it right" by having a separate car for Express Pass. Surely, by your logic, those cars would still be better off going to non-Express Pass users?

Sorry, I should have been more clear about the cars. Of course if nobody is waiting in the express line, they put the Standby guests in that car. In fact, if the Standby line has gotten to long, they will hold the Express line back to quickly get the Standby line down some. This happens mostly on Mummy where they will load 2 cars of Standby and then 1 car of each.

My biggest issue with the Fastpass system is the standby line. Most people do not believe that the Standby line is affect by the system, but it truely is. You could be the next person to board a car on RRR, but then they let 50-60 Fastpass people ahead of you, thus increasing your wait time. Sure, the Standby wait time posted outside takes this into account, but its not excepting 100+ people with expired Fastpasses to jump into the line ahead of you. So, I say Universal got it right, because unlike Disney, Standby has their own car and Express has their own car, thus no line is ever affected by the other, and sometimes when they is no Express, the Standby line can even move faster!

As far as the "holding" of the spot for you, thats what is happening. Taken right from the Disney website:

"Our complimentary Disney's FASTPASS Service saves your place in line for an attraction while you enjoy the rest of the theme park."

Even Disney claims that getting a Fastpass is like holding a spot in line for you. Its works just like a restaurant. If a table is empty (a car is empty), and you have not returned at the time that was said, then your SAVED spot is given to a person in Standby and you missed your chance and have to wait again. Sure they don't have a car waiting for you with your name on it, but they basicly reserve a spot in the line for you and when your time is up, you get the next avaible car, just like you would get the next avaible table. You could not go up to the host and say "Sorry I am here an hour late, can I have a table?" and get one right away. You missed your chance and will have to wait. This is how it should be at disney, if your saved spot (disneys words, not mine) is given to another person, you will have to wait again. This type of system is in place all over the place. You can not call a car repair center and say you will show up in an hour and then arrive three hours late and expect them to fix your car...they are working on somebodys that showed up ON TIME. You can not reserve a time to get your hair cut and show up an hour late excepting them to be waiting around. You will have to wait longer because you arrived late and your spot was given away. Why should Disneys system be any different? If you missed your time, you should have to wait becuase your spot was given to another person that waited and showed up on time.

 

[nytimez]

Sorry, I should have been more clear about the cars. Of course if nobody is waiting in the express line, they put the Standby guests in that car. In fact, if the Standby line has gotten to long, they will hold the Express line back to quickly get the Standby line down some. This happens mostly on Mummy where they will load 2 cars of Standby and then 1 car of each.

My biggest issue with the Fastpass system is the standby line. Most people do not believe that the Standby line is affect by the system, but it truely is. You could be the next person to board a car on RRR, but then they let 50-60 Fastpass people ahead of you, thus increasing your wait time. Sure, the Standby wait time posted outside takes this into account, but its not excepting 100+ people with expired Fastpasses to jump into the line ahead of you. So, I say Universal got it right, because unlike Disney, Standby has their own car and Express has their own car, thus no line is ever affected by the other, and sometimes when they is no Express, the Standby line can even move faster!

As far as the "holding" of the spot for you, thats what is happening. Taken right from the Disney website:

"Our complimentary Disney's FASTPASS Service saves your place in line for an attraction while you enjoy the rest of the theme park."

Even Disney claims that getting a Fastpass is like holding a spot in line for you. Its works just like a restaurant. If a table is empty (a car is empty), and you have not returned at the time that was said, then your SAVED spot is given to a person in Standby and you missed your chance and have to wait again. Sure they don't have a car waiting for you with your name on it, but they basicly reserve a spot in the line for you and when your time is up, you get the next avaible car, just like you would get the next avaible table. You could not go up to the host and say "Sorry I am here an hour late, can I have a table?" and get one right away. You missed your chance and will have to wait. This is how it should be at disney, if your saved spot (disneys words, not mine) is given to another person, you will have to wait again. This type of system is in place all over the place. You can not call a car repair center and say you will show up in an hour and then arrive three hours late and expect them to fix your car...they are working on somebodys that showed up ON TIME. You can not reserve a time to get your hair cut and show up an hour late excepting them to be waiting around. You will have to wait longer because you arrived late and your spot was given away. Why should Disneys system be any different? If you missed your time, you should have to wait becuase your spot was given to another person that waited and showed up on time.

You're getting carried away here. It's a figure of speech, not some legal definition.

When your table is ready at a restaurant, no one is sitting in it while the host finds you and seats you. It's an empty table, waiting for you, until you arrive (unless they can't locate you and have to give it away). That truly prevents someone else from being seated.

When you are not in your fastpass line or not getting on the attraction, there are no empty seats. The line keeps moving.

Additionally, if there was no fastpass, it's not like FP users would stop riding. They'd get in line, and they'd still be in line ahead of you. The only difference is now everyone is spending all their time in line instead of off doing other things.

I can't believe anyone who saw the lines pre-fastpass would argue that the lines -- even standby -- are longer now. They're not. They're often shorter, and when crowds are bigger the wait times are roughly the same -- but you don't have the mobs of people spilling out of every queue, and Disney has said on the record that their own research shows this to be true.