Response to ADA Suit

[CPT Tripss]

Why does one "have" to go back and forth across the park repeatedly? Seems like something one either chooses to do or chooses not to do. Traveling in the park at a slow pace my mean that I get fewer attractions than someone moving at a quicker pace, but it certainly is not a barrier to access that Disney needs to accommodate. It may well affect my enjoyment, but not my access.


I must be missing something. If one does not enter a park, how can Disney possibly make a reasonable accommodation for the missed attractions?


As far as where does the suit go . . . Discovery will be interesting. I would really love to be "a fly on the wall" when plaintiffs are deposed. I have a hunch that some of them will, intentionally or not, throw others "under the (proverbial) bus.

 

[goofieslonglostsis]

I get what you're saying but disney doesn't need to try to make sure one gets to ride the same number of rides per day that the average person rides.
First, how do you decide who is an average guest, and how many rides they should have been able to do based on whose opinion?
Second, people don't always so full days in the parks for various reasons. Some of which have to do with disabilities and some don't. Elderly, pregnant, families with small children who need breaks, people who don't like to be out during the hottest part of the day, people who aren't disabled but tire easily so went back to the hotel early, people who don't go on too many rides because they tend to get motion sickness, people who have to leave because their flight home leaves early, people who didn't get to do anything at all in the park that day because a member of their party suddenly got sick so they had to leave for the day this wasting their ticket?
Do we need to make sure everyone experiences a certain ideal number of rides during the time they have available in the parks?
People tour the parks in various ways, for various reasons, and what they choose to do with the time they have available to them is their own decision.

Agreed. Asides from that, just the number of those you could make it stick thwy do much less due to health or disability reasons are HUGE. Heck, even if Disney would be so crude as to state "we'll limit it to those who can proof a life expectancy of less than 5 years" the numbers are staggering. After all, staggering amounts if folks put disney on bucket lists. The numbers alone imho would clogg up so much it does more harm overall than good.

But than again, I dont read/view it as disney offering a so-called average experience. I see it as them offering access, some great extra magic for wish trips. The not average isnt disneys blame, responsibility nor them to "make up for" used very loosely, since my view is it would negatively impact others unacceptably and that of itself will undo the whole "average" it ones started out with). Sometimes life hands out lemons and for some it can mean a below so-called average nr of rides. If any thats mother natures "blame" and just sometimes life is what it is.

 

[beaprn]

I think that there are possible solutions that Disney should explore, but there is definitely some merit to the lawsuit as it stands right now.

Mind you most of the problems are not what official Disney policy is, but rather what has become the operating norm for those with DAS cards and other needs, such as wheelchairs, not being able to do stairs, etc.

Where the lawsuit doesn't have merit is that they expect to be able to completely bypass the wait time.

So, I am guessing the courts will order Disney to do something to accommodate them, but not require Disney to eliminate the waiting.

My thoughts are that the courts will order Disney to eliminate the return times and instead say the card is not valid for the length of the standby line after riding the attraction.

But that is what this person wants no waiting, be able to plan out their day without having to worry about stressors such as lines. I am sorry but every parent should want their child to feel special but not at the expense of bypassing everybody else. Everyone would love to be able to finish their day at 5pm. I understand this person's children have issues however if they are that "fragile" she should not be taking them into the parks especially during Xmas week ,expecting everyone to stop and allow her family a stress free vacation. In the "real world" you wait your turn or at Disney come back at a predetermined time, those are your choices, anywhere else you wait in line with everyone else. If these children are so prone to "meltdowns" I feel sorry for them when their pushy mother is not around any longer. How is it that she did not read up on this after the first incident and fast pass options or make any changes in her plans. She apparently did no homework on any alternate plans for her children's issues. No she expected Disney to cave just because she kept the issue brewing. This is not going away, the law states Disney has to accommodate the disabled not totally wipe out any expectations of a waiting time. The old system was being abused and not only with the incident the news about people hiring disabled people to get them to the front of the line. With the old system at times the wheelchairs with all their families would be lined up outside the disabled entrance like there was an old time healing going on inside. Most theme parks now have similar disabled systems in place so going anywhere else is not going to help again because the old systems were being abused. It is interesting that she owns Disney vacation property which is not cheap and was coming to WDW several times a year before they adjusted the system but complains about having to pay a babysitter to help her deal with her children. I came to WDW one time with my sister who needed a wheelchair because she could not stand for long periods of time (due to circulation issue) and her two grandchildren. She received a GAC for the front of the line. This was several years ago and a lot of the lines would not accommodate wc in regular line and while I understood this, each time we went to the front of the line I felt little embarrassed to be bypassing all those people in line, but that is just me. I personally think the new system is fairer but the people who have been used to the old system are use to that system and they do not want to wait in line. I am sorry this family does not feel the magic in their vacations anymore and her daughter no longer feels like a princess. Actually if you think about it- the discrimination was going on with the old system because they were being treated differently than everyone else because of their disability and now they are being treated like everyone else. They have to wait their turn but they do not have to wait in line. Just my two cents worth.

 

[sunshinehighway]

Why are people making back and forth treks across the park (WDW because I have no idea what the layout of DL is)? Splash and BTMRR are really the only solitary things I can think of. Going back and forth multiple times between lands is completely avoidable in most cases.

I wonder if the trekking back and forth is simply because people who are used to the old "GAC as fastpass" are not used to doing one area at a time.
I imagine it's a whole new way of touring for some people and that can be difficult to get used to.

 

[asc]

I would have thought that a large organization like disney would have a way to program the whole FP+ and MB's in a way that guest services could suspend the expiration of the FP+'s of a guest with a DAS or come up with a way that they are still usable even though expired as long as the person using them shows their DAS. This would make the FP+'s usable at times beyond their expiration and/or coming up with a way that when you go to use them, they initially get denied and then you show your DAS to overide the same. then people would have the same amount of FP+'s as everyone else.

 

[sunshinehighway]

I would have thought that a large organization like disney would have a way to program the whole FP+ and MB's in a way that guest services could suspend the expiration of the FP+'s of a guest with a DAS or come up with a way that they are still usable even though expired as long as the person using them shows their DAS. This would make the FP+'s usable at times beyond their expiration and/or coming up with a way that when you go to use them, they initially get denied and then you show your DAS to overide the same. then people would have the same amount of FP+'s as everyone else.

DAS users are given the same number of FP+s as everyone else. I understand there will be occasions DAS users miss their return times but that's true of non DAS users as well.

 

[aaarcher86]

I would have thought that a large organization like disney would have a way to program the whole FP+ and MB's in a way that guest services could suspend the expiration of the FP+'s of a guest with a DAS or come up with a way that they are still usable even though expired as long as the person using them shows their DAS. This would make the FP+'s usable at times beyond their expiration and/or coming up with a way that when you go to use them, they initially get denied and then you show your DAS to overide the same. then people would have the same amount of FP+'s as everyone else.

So essentially 3 anytime FP for DAS users? I wouldn't be opposed to a bit of wiggle room, but I imagine people would push it and it would just never be enough.

FP times can be changed and DAS times have no expiration. There's such a high number of reasons anyone could miss their FP time, I just personally an not a fan of the idea. And with so many current issues regarding FP+ I think it'd be disastrous in its current state.

 

[OurBigTrip]

I would have thought that a large organization like disney would have a way to program the whole FP+ and MB's in a way that guest services could suspend the expiration of the FP+'s of a guest with a DAS or come up with a way that they are still usable even though expired as long as the person using them shows their DAS. This would make the FP+'s usable at times beyond their expiration and/or coming up with a way that when you go to use them, they initially get denied and then you show your DAS to overide the same. then people would have the same amount of FP+'s as everyone else.

DAS users already have the same number of FP+ as everyone else.

 

[intheshadows]

One thing to remember:

Per ADA, Disney DOES NOT have to "change the nature of the experience." For example, if someone is terrified of the dark, Disney does not have to turn on the lights in Space Mountain or Haunted Mansion.

Also, if someone does not meet height requirements (by disability or otherwise) they are not permitted to ride.

If you cannot be safely strapped into the restraints due to missing limbs, body shape, etc, no amusement park is required to provide an "accommodation" to allow you to ride it.

 

[StitchesGr8Fan]

I've asked this before, but I think it was missed. Why do people hold Disney to such higher standards than anywhere else?

There are lines and waits everywhere in life, but you don't see people suing the supermarket (checkout line), highway department (traffic), or local amusement parks or zoos because their kids can't wait. I recall one poster on an old thread that said her ASD child freaked out when they stopped for traffic lights, but she still wanted to take a trip to Disney and was upset that her child would have to wait sometimes.

 

[North of Mouse]

I've asked this before, but I think it was missed. Why do people hold Disney to such higher standards than anywhere else?

There are lines and waits everywhere in life, but you don't see people suing the supermarket (checkout line), highway department (traffic), or local amusement parks or zoos because their kids can't wait. I recall one poster on an old thread that said her ASD child freaked out when they stopped for traffic lights, but she still wanted to take a trip to Disney and was upset that her child would have to wait sometimes.

Disney's great reputation perhaps???? No matter how good it is, some people always think they deserve more??? Entitlement????

Both of the above??? Out to get what 'they' want, regardless of who they 'trod' on in the process?? This sometimes starts out as little children always getting their way - why not as adults also??

 

[asc]

DAS users already have the same number of FP+ as everyone else.

I know that. I am suggesting that there are times when those with additional needs might miss the windows for the same and the FP does not expire.

I agree with aaarcher86, don't think that would be enough for those here but might help with those of us who find that from time to time we miss windows that are entirely related to our child's needs.

 

[wilkeliza]

I know that. I am suggesting that there are times when those with additional needs might miss the windows for the same and the FP does not expire.

I agree with aaarcher86, don't think that would be enough for those here but might help with those of us who find that from time to time we miss windows that are entirely related to our child's needs.

I can see both sides of this but a family whose child does not have a disability may miss a FP due to need as well. Little ones need to nap and if pushed much longer will reach melt down mode. Family decides it is best to head back to resort even though they have a fp. They aren't sure when they will return because JR might be done for the day. Family chooses to change their FP to whatever is available later that day.

Family 2's child suddenly becomes violently ill and has to be rushed back to resort. Family 2 has no clue when they will make it back to the park. FP is missed.

The secnerios could go on but are similar a family misses their FP due to a need. Should they also get the ok to come back whenever and use that FP even though they aren't disabled? It was their need that prevented them from making it.

 

[Mrsjvb]

I know that. I am suggesting that there are times when those with additional needs might miss the windows for the same and the FP does not expire.

I agree with aaarcher86, don't think that would be enough for those here but might help with those of us who find that from time to time we miss windows that are entirely related to our child's needs.

lots of people miss a FP+ window due to unexpected or unrelated issues: emergency potty break and the lines are huge. your TS lunch ran long cuz you got seated late. got caught up shopping for the perfect Olaf Tee shirt. just plain not keeping track of time.

something that has bugged me since the rollout of DAS that is petty I admit but still rubs me the wrong way esp when people piss and moan about not being able to do as much as 'normal' people and think they should be allowed to cram twice as much in .

you already ARE.

Family A and Family B wants to do 7DMT. Family A used their FP+ selection on something else so they get in the SB line which is at 60 minutes. for the next hour they will be standing around trying to get "its a Small World' out of their head.

Family B with a DAS walks up at the same time and gets a Return time for 50 minutes away. for the next 45 minutes THEY can : ride another ride, go shopping, grab a bite to eat, go pee, get a picture with Eeyore. any one of those things.

in the same time frame, Family B has accomplished more than Family A.

I also have serious issues with the notion of "NEEDING" accelerated access. everyone WANTS it..no one NEEDS it.. not even disabled( mentally or physical) it is up tot each family/group/individual to put a limit on what they will deal with.. for instance I will not get into any SB line that has a listed wait time of more than 30 minutes( Except Soaring.. that one I go 45 cuz I am besotted with that ride)

and I also have issues with some people's opinion that the only thing worth mentioning/doing are the rides Parades and fireworks. between shows, just wandering around soaking up atmosphere or catching a street performer, you can accomplish quite a bit in a limited time period.

 

[aaarcher86]

We head back to Disney at the end of September. I plan to do a full time write up of our trip with FP+, DAS, etc.

Granted, we aren't 'go go go' type tourers but I think it'll be interesting to see it all laid out in regards to how much people can get done.

 

[2tinkerbell]

Personally, I feel that the people who are part of the lawsuit want FOTL access, plain and simple. I feel that they are pitting their child's disability against all other disabilies (evidenced by throwing those who need wheelchairs under the bus). They are trying to make their experience so tramatic that there is no way that they won't be given FOTL passes - at least that is how it feels they are thinking.

I believe that if you approach the situation with an opened mind that Disney will work with you. I also believe that if you have the mindset that the only accommodation that you need is FOTL passes, you will be disappointed and will come away feeling that Disney isn't doing anything for those with disabilities.

Note: by FOTL passes, I am talking about any time, any attraction fast passes and/or accelerated access.

Personally, I feel that when there are so many people demanding "special" treatment, no one gets anything. It is hard to draw the line so they just don't do it. That is the one thing that I noticed about the DAS: the CM's are available to give Pixie Dust and go the extra mile. I even confirmed this with a Manager in GR when we stopped by to fill out a couple of cards.

 

[ttintagel]

If the accommodation needed or wanted is not faster access then what is it? I can't think of an instance when I have heard any of the plaintiffs ask for anything but faster access.

This discussion stopped being strictly about only the plaintiffs of the lawsuit a long time ago; a lot of pages have gone by with general discussion of how the DAS isn't helping everybody who needs assistance.

What did the GAC provide if not faster access? It may have started out as something more but at the end it had changed.

The most important thing it provided for me is accommodation for visual disability: it made sure I got to sit where I could see, and got CM’s to slow belts for loading and unloading. At some attractions, it did get CM’s to allow me to enter through a safer entrance, but that was only needed at a few attractions and was rarely used.

And before anyone says, “You can just ask the CM’s for those accommodations,” I can assure you in no uncertain terms that on the occasions when I didn’t have the card that told them that they HAD to give them, more than half the time they wouldn't. (Heck, some of them refused even WITH it, but that was mainly at one attraction.) You can’t rely on the kindness of strangers.

And I'm not sure what the question / comment is regarding only children being disabled.

I was remarking that most of the online discussion here and elsewhere centers around children with disabilities rather than including both children and adults.

 

[ttintagel]

You don't get squatter's rights at Disney, where you went first, you got faster access when it was easier to give, so now you still get it now, even though there are more people and everyone is waiting longer.

The number of times I've gotten faster access at a Disney park, I can count on the fingers of one hand. I said in my original post that faster access isn't the only concern of people with disabilities.

There may be more people coming to the parks now than there have been in the past - but how many of those people are coming because of the reputation Disney created for itself? How many of them are people with disabilities who will come once and decide it isn't worth the effort to return?

 

[wilkeliza]

This discussion stopped being strictly about only the plaintiffs of the lawsuit a long time ago; a lot of pages have gone by with general discussion of how the DAS isn't helping everybody who needs assistance.

The most important thing it provided for me is accommodation for visual disability: it made sure I got to sit where I could see, and got CM’s to slow belts for loading and unloading. At some attractions, it did get CM’s to allow me to enter through a safer entrance, but that was only needed at a few attractions and was rarely used.

And before anyone says, “You can just ask the CM’s for those accommodations,” I can assure you in no uncertain terms that on the occasions when I didn’t have the card that told them that they HAD to give them, more than half the time they wouldn't. (Heck, some of them refused even WITH it, but that was mainly at one attraction.) You can’t rely on the kindness of strangers.

I was remarking that most of the online discussion here and elsewhere centers around children with disabilities rather than including both children and adults.

When you have been denied the services provided for those with visual disability dogs you do anything about it like ask to speak with a manager? Also how did they deny you? I can imagine if you try to show up to a show only a few minutes before site time they may have none of these seats left. I am not trying to deny your experiences but trying to find out if you did anything to let Disney know a CM is not following their own rules. Plus you mentioned one specific attraction. Was there perhaps something about the attraction that made the accommodation invalid?

 

[thankudrivethru]

The number of times I've gotten faster access at a Disney park, I can count on the fingers of one hand. I said in my original post that faster access isn't the only concern of people with disabilities.

There may be more people coming to the parks now than there have been in the past - but how many of those people are coming because of the reputation Disney created for itself? How many of them are people with disabilities who will come once and decide it isn't worth the effort to return?

Faster access? ? There is two lines, a FP line and a standby line, the standby line is for those that don't have a choice but to wait minutes upon minutes (or hours) with using a FP or just don't have one for various reasons. FP line is for FP holders and DAS users. I consider FP line fast access. You are getting fast access w\the DAS,ttintagel. You want light speed access? How would that be fair to those park guests who are in the standby line waiting for their turn?