Marathon Weekend 2017!

[DopeyBadger]

@DopeyBadger

Compression calf sleeves are something I have never incorporated into my running routine or post run recovery. Looking for some info on the benefits of this and what brands might be best to look into.

I personally use Zensah brand. I've got nothing to say their brand is any better than any other on the market (other than their personal marketing mumbo-jumbo).

Personally, I only use the compression calf sleeves post races for recovery. The compression sleeves help improve circulation in the legs. This increased circulation helps expedite the recovery process by continuing to flush the area of fatigue by-product making the muscles fresher sooner. The concept is the same for diabetic patients who use the compression calf sleeves to improve blood flow in their legs. There have been several research studies showing a good correlation between calf sleeves post run and a better performance in another run soon after.

There are claims that compression gear like calf sleeves could help with during running as well. But at this point, the independent research hasn't caught up to the claims yet. It doesn't mean the claims aren't real, just that the right scientific study hasn't been conducted to validate the claims. They could be real physiological results, or they also could be a placebo (mental) effect. Although regardless of which, if it produces the desired effect, then it doesn't really matter if its physical or mental. And I am a big believer that mental games matter a lot in running.

Now, I personally only use the compression sleeves post race because during training I don't want my body to "fully" recover between training runs. I believe in the concept of "cumulative fatigue" in which the training you do continues to slowly build upon itself. It raises the bodies tolerance on what it can train on. It teaches the body to run on tired muscles. It teaches the body to adapt and create more abilities to create and use energy (like increased blood capillaries and mitochondrial density and volume). Not necessarily training in a fatigued state, but not training in a rested state either. It's a middle ground of training. So, I find that if I use compression sleeves during training post run, then I am dampening the effects of my training because I recover too much before the next run. The next run will be easier because of the reduced fatigue (via compression sleeves) but the end result on race day will fall short if I had chosen not to use as many recovery methods during training. I stick with 1) chocolate milk (other options available too) for recovery by replenishment of muscle glycogen and teaching the body to increase energy storage and 2) stretching as my only two training recovery methods.

 

[Nole95]

Thanks @DopeyBadger

I started training using the culmulative fatigue method of thought last year. First cycle I went through was training for the Savannah RNR Marathon, and I could really see the difference in my endurance and running. I used a slightly modified Hanson plan, and ended up getting a PR by 13 minutes.

I want to keep with this type of plan going forward so this is good info.

 

[Ariel484]

Can anyone else who has started a TR link them here? I'd love to follow along.

http://disboards.com/threads/a-dwar...7-dopey-grumpy-challenge-trip-report.3570623/

 

[jfinke]

Brief recap:

First, sorry about everyone who had their race cancelled. It stinks, but mother nature will always win out.
Second, kudos to those of you who signed up for the half and left with the full. That is no joke, so congratulations!!

I came into this race with not great expectations. I had a good five miler race in early November. But we had a cruise in late November. We had planned the cruise a year in advanced, far before we had decided to run the marathon. The cruise probably added some pounds and moved some training runs to the treadmill. My other issue with the Disney Marathon is generally the heat and humidity. I do not perform well in the heat and humidity. I bonked really hard in 2015 while trying to qualify for Boston. You can look at my pace chart and just see a giant drop starting at mile 19.

So I was moderately excited when I watched the weather predictions and saw that it was predicted to be cool. Then, it was predicted to be cold. 40 degrees is about perfect for me to race in. But when it starts to get below freezing and with the wind chill, I worry about tight muscles over that long of a race.

We spent a couple of hours at one of the outlet malls to find some more winter running gear. I ended up getting a pair of shorts with built in compression, some light tights, a long sleeve running hoodie, and a couple of pairs of gloves. I had gotten a beanie the day before over in animal kingdom. I assembled everything together that night planning on wearing the gloves and a pair of tights under my normal marathon shorts.

When we woke up at two the next morning, we discovered it was not as cold as they were predicting. So I went back and forth over 30 minutes and decided not to wear any of the stuff I bought the day before. I went with stuff I brought plus the beanie. Shorts, thin long sleeve shirt under a short sleeve shirt, injinji socks, thin gloves with throw away gloves, and my beanie. In addition, I had throw away sweatpants and sweater, plus a trash bag for wind.

My wife and I made our way to the B and A corrals respectively. There was a bit of road still left to warm up on. So we stretched and did some light jogging with pickups. Then we kissed and wished each other good luck.

Within the first mile I felt pretty relaxed and calm. Pacing seemed decent. It was relatively slow, but it was early. I fought through the wind as we went North. It was hard to find someone in my pacing to trade off the work with, so I just went by myself. I managed to keep in check as we entered MK. That is the big emotional part of the race. It is unfortunate it is so early.

As we headed South, I figured I would fly with the wind. I figured it may bite me in the end, but I was kind of hoping that by the time I had to turn North again, the wind would have died down.

As we exited AK, I ditched my throw away gloves. They were becoming a hassle. Plus, I figured I had warmed up enough by now that my thin gloves were good enough.

Somewhere in mile 15 I started to get a cramp on my right side, but I was able to mentally push it away. Along the highway as I got closer to the turnoff I saw the lead man and then second place as they headed towards DHS. They were a second apart at mile 20, but first place finished seven minutes ahead.

I bonked in the stadium two years ago. This year was a different story. I am actually smiling in my pictures. I knew that this point was further along than it was in that race due to changes in the course. I just had to hold on. As I turned North, I hit the wind. Now there was almost no one to draft with. I will say I let it get to me in the last few miles.

Starting around mile 21 I was losing about 5-10 seconds a mile. But I kept on swimming upstream. I finally got into Epcot. I made the mistake of looking at the ball and it seemed so far away even though I knew I was 1+ mile from the finish line. I just put my head down and pushed through. My right hamstring started to tighten up at mile 26 as it did in my BQ race 1.3 years ago. I don't remember much about the finish line. I picked it up in the last .4 miles vs. mile 26. I was just happy to be done at that point. I probably should have ditched the hat at some point later in the race. I may have been overheating, but who knows. I am thinking it cost me 30 seconds on the backend.

Due to the chilly weather I did not feel like I was ready to die. I was sore though. I had just run the hardest in my life. I ended up with an official PR of over five minutes at 3:05:38. According to my watch I raced 26.39 miles, so my 26.2 time was 3:04:22, which is helpful to know for a course where it is easier to run the tangents.

Both my wife and I set PRs and requalified for Boston, so we will be going in 2018. But more importantly, without being lean and not feeling terribly prepared I managed a 3:05 on a course (granted, in much better conditions) that I ran a 3:26 on two years previously. I am hoping that that sets me up for the elusive sub 3:00 sometime in the near future.

 

[rteetz]

http://www.wdwinfo.com/walt-disney-world/how-disney-made-the-best-out-of-a-bad-situation/

An article I wrote regarding this last weekend.

 

[DopeyBadger]

Brief recap:

First, sorry about everyone who had their race cancelled. It stinks, but mother nature will always win out.
Second, kudos to those of you who signed up for the half and left with the full. That is no joke, so congratulations!!

I came into this race with not great expectations. I had a good five miler race in early November. But we had a cruise in late November. We had planned the cruise a year in advanced, far before we had decided to run the marathon. The cruise probably added some pounds and moved some training runs to the treadmill. My other issue with the Disney Marathon is generally the heat and humidity. I do not perform well in the heat and humidity. I bonked really hard in 2015 while trying to qualify for Boston. You can look at my pace chart and just see a giant drop starting at mile 19.

So I was moderately excited when I watched the weather predictions and saw that it was predicted to be cool. Then, it was predicted to be cold. 40 degrees is about perfect for me to race in. But when it starts to get below freezing and with the wind chill, I worry about tight muscles over that long of a race.

We spent a couple of hours at one of the outlet malls to find some more winter running gear. I ended up getting a pair of shorts with built in compression, some light tights, a long sleeve running hoodie, and a couple of pairs of gloves. I had gotten a beanie the day before over in animal kingdom. I assembled everything together that night planning on wearing the gloves and a pair of tights under my normal marathon shorts.

When we woke up at two the next morning, we discovered it was not as cold as they were predicting. So I went back and forth over 30 minutes and decided not to wear any of the stuff I bought the day before. I went with stuff I brought plus the beanie. Shorts, thin long sleeve shirt under a short sleeve shirt, injinji socks, thin gloves with throw away gloves, and my beanie. In addition, I had throw away sweatpants and sweater, plus a trash bag for wind.

My wife and I made our way to the B and A corrals respectively. There was a bit of road still left to warm up on. So we stretched and did some light jogging with pickups. Then we kissed and wished each other good luck.

Within the first mile I felt pretty relaxed and calm. Pacing seemed decent. It was relatively slow, but it was early. I fought through the wind as we went North. It was hard to find someone in my pacing to trade off the work with, so I just went by myself. I managed to keep in check as we entered MK. That is the big emotional part of the race. It is unfortunate it is so early.

As we headed South, I figured I would fly with the wind. I figured it may bite me in the end, but I was kind of hoping that by the time I had to turn North again, the wind would have died down.

As we exited AK, I ditched my throw away gloves. They were becoming a hassle. Plus, I figured I had warmed up enough by now that my thin gloves were good enough.

Somewhere in mile 15 I started to get a cramp on my right side, but I was able to mentally push it away. Along the highway as I got closer to the turnoff I saw the lead man and then second place as they headed towards DHS. They were a second apart at mile 20, but first place finished seven minutes ahead.

I bonked in the stadium two years ago. This year was a different story. I am actually smiling in my pictures. I knew that this point was further along than it was in that race due to changes in the course. I just had to hold on. As I turned North, I hit the wind. Now there was almost no one to draft with. I will say I let it get to me in the last few miles.

Starting around mile 21 I was losing about 5-10 seconds a mile. But I kept on swimming upstream. I finally got into Epcot. I made the mistake of looking at the ball and it seemed so far away even though I knew I was 1+ mile from the finish line. I just put my head down and pushed through. My right hamstring started to tighten up at mile 26 as it did in my BQ race 1.3 years ago. I don't remember much about the finish line. I picked it up in the last .4 miles vs. mile 26. I was just happy to be done at that point. I probably should have ditched the hat at some point later in the race. I may have been overheating, but who knows. I am thinking it cost me 30 seconds on the backend.

Due to the chilly weather I did not feel like I was ready to die. I was sore though. I had just run the hardest in my life. I ended up with an official PR of over five minutes at 3:05:38. According to my watch I raced 26.39 miles, so my 26.2 time was 3:04:22, which is helpful to know for a course where it is easier to run the tangents.

Both my wife and I set PRs and requalified for Boston, so we will be going in 2018. But more importantly, without being lean and not feeling terribly prepared I managed a 3:05 on a course (granted, in much better conditions) that I ran a 3:26 on two years previously. I am hoping that that sets me up for the elusive sub 3:00 sometime in the near future.

Great recap! Kudos to you and your wife. You put in some solid training during 2016 and it payed off!

 

[croach]

Reading some peoples trip reports and it made think of this from last weekend(or any race really) - I always get anxiety when there are all those people waiting to give you your medal at the finish. Which one do I choose? The first person? Maybe someone at the back who people don't get to as often? Maybe they rotate? It's overwhelming. I'm kidding about the overwhelming but I do always feel a little awkward trying to pick a person.

 

[ZellyB]

@jfinke great recap and what an amazing race you ran. Congrats on your and your wife's PRs and BQ. WOW!

 

[Barca33Runner]

Just posted the first park day of my recap in my journal (which is linked below). Hopefully I'll get the full TR done in the next few days. Lots of pictures to sort through.

 

[SheHulk]

First "run" since the marathon was a slow 2 mile jog today. Knock wood, it looks like I did not injure my knee in the race, even though it was painful and swollen for 2 days or so after. I just asked a lot of it on Sunday so it was complaining a bit. DS who is a HS cross country runner actually laughed at how long it took me to jog 2 miles but it was worth it to have no pain during or after. Taking it back up slowly now and can feel it was a success even if I didn't get the time I wanted in the race.

 

[SheHulk]

@DopeyBadger if I ever did want to try for run a sub 5 hour marathon again, what time should I aim for in a half that would let me know I'm ready to train for that? I know I was dehydrated and getting over illness at the start of this race but I don't think I would have hit it under the best of conditions this time. My PoT for this year was 2:26 for a half last April.

 

[MommaoffherRocker]

Reading some peoples trip reports and it made think of this from last weekend(or any race really) - I always get anxiety when there are all those people waiting to give you your medal at the finish. Which one do I choose? The first person? Maybe someone at the back who people don't get to as often? Maybe they rotate? It's overwhelming. I'm kidding about the overwhelming but I do always feel a little awkward trying to pick a person.

I handed out medals at W&D this past year and trust me it is just as awkward for the person giving you the medal, especially since they changed it to having them stand in a line.

 

[FFigawi]

Reading some peoples trip reports and it made think of this from last weekend(or any race really) - I always get anxiety when there are all those people waiting to give you your medal at the finish. Which one do I choose? The first person? Maybe someone at the back who people don't get to as often? Maybe they rotate? It's overwhelming. I'm kidding about the overwhelming but I do always feel a little awkward trying to pick a person.

I always try to pick someone near the back who looks like no one else has been to recently. I feel bad for them standing out there in the cold or heat or whatever and not handing out many medals because the people in front get more of the action.

 

[DopeyBadger]

@DopeyBadger if I ever did want to try for run a sub 5 hour marathon again, what time should I aim for in a half that would let me know I'm ready to train for that? I know I was dehydrated and getting over illness at the start of this race but I don't think I would have hit it under the best of conditions this time. My PoT for this year was 2:26 for a half last April.

Using McMillan:
-The race equivalent of a 5hr marathon is a 2:22:33 HM
-A 2:26 HM is a race equivalent 5:07 marathon.

Using my Hansons adapted calculator:
-The race equivalent of a 5hr marathon is a 2:24:00 HM
-A 2:26 HM is a race equivalent 5:04 marathon.

Using my Jack Daniels adapted calculator:
-The race equivalent of a 5hr marathon is a 2:23:53 HM
-A 2:26 HM is a race equivalent 5:04 marathon.

The use of a "race equivalency" is useful when the runner is "fully trained" for the distance you are equating to. So, just because you can hit one time on the chart does not necessarily mean you will hit the matching time on another distance.

With that disclaimer being said, given your half marathon time of 2:26 in April 2016. A 5 hour marathon is definitely possible after a good 16-18 week marathon training plan. Given how good of a training plan you choose to use, and how much your fitness has improved since April 2016, a 4:45-4:50 marathon could be your ceiling in a 18 week timeframe (estimate based on the limited data you've provided and a standard improvement rate on a good training plan). With that being said, base your training plan (and specifically paces) on your current fitness and not on any goal. So if you feel a 2:26 HM is your current fitness, then train for a 5:04 marathon.

 

[SheHulk]

With that disclaimer being said, given your half marathon time of 2:26 in April 2016. A 5 hour marathon is definitely possible after a good 16-18 week marathon training plan. Given how good of a training plan you choose to use, and how much your fitness has improved since April 2016, a 4:45-4:50 marathon could be your ceiling in a 18 week timeframe (estimate based on the limited data you've provided and a standard improvement rate on a good training plan). With that being said, base your training plan (and specifically paces) on your current fitness and not on any goal. So if you feel a 2:26 HM is your current fitness, then train for a 5:04 marathon.

Thanks! It's never been clear to me what those predictions mean: is that what you could train for, if you ran the "input" race at the start of the training plan, or is it your predicted if you ran the half at the peak of your training?
And lol I'll bet nobody trains for a 5:04 marathon, or a 4:04 or 3:04 for that matter. You're a numbers guy I'm sure you've seen the numbers that show marathon finishers' times bunch up in frequency just under each hour mark. A 4:59:59 is a victory and a 5:00:56 is defeat.

 

[AThrillingChase]

Anyone choosing to defer registration to a different half heard anything yet? DD & DSiL sent emails today, hoping to register for W&D.

I emailed them before the 13th - to avoid them auto sending a gift card - to do this. Haven't heard back yet. I also resent my email on the 13th. No gift card has come, so taking that as a positive.

ETA - I still think it is amazing they are doing this. So if an email gift card comes, all good

Reading some peoples trip reports and it made think of this from last weekend(or any race really) - I always get anxiety when there are all those people waiting to give you your medal at the finish. Which one do I choose? The first person? Maybe someone at the back who people don't get to as often? Maybe they rotate? It's overwhelming. I'm kidding about the overwhelming but I do always feel a little awkward trying to pick a person.

There is a younger guy who volunteers and for at least a couple of races he wore a top hat. I would beeline for him because...top hats. If anyone knows him, please tell him he rocks and to keep it up!

First "run" since the marathon was a slow 2 mile jog today. Knock wood, it looks like I did not injure my knee in the race, even though it was painful and swollen for 2 days or so after. I just asked a lot of it on Sunday so it was complaining a bit. DS who is a HS cross country runner actually laughed at how long it took me to jog 2 miles but it was worth it to have no pain during or after. Taking it back up slowly now and can feel it was a success even if I didn't get the time I wanted in the race.

This is going to be my plan too. My PT acted up around mile 18 and while it feels fine now, I was waiting a week to let it rest!

 

[UNCBear24]

Just finished my first post marathon run. I did 4.12 miles and felt good, even did the last 2 miles in 15:10, so pretty happy with that. Wasn't sure about Dopey again in 2018, but with no half this year, I'll probably do it again. I was hoping to run all 4 races faster than last year and I did beat my times in all 3 races, so that was good. Can't go 4 for 4 with only 3 attempts, so . . . . might as well try it again next year! Congrats to everyone who ran, especially those who survived the full!

 

[mbwhitti]

Ran my 13.1 today to 'earn' my Donald medal! Having done Goofy (as part of Dopey) in 2015, I can say that this was actually A LOT harder to run 13.1 the weekend after 26.2. I'm sure the lack of race atmosphere was a huge factor but my poor hips and IT Bands were not loving it today. Regardless, I now feel as though I've earned my half and Goofy medals and will now proudly display them on my medal hanger!!

 

[DopeyBadger]

Thanks! It's never been clear to me what those predictions mean: is that what you could train for, if you ran the "input" race at the start of the training plan, or is it your predicted if you ran the half at the peak of your training?

It means that someone who runs a 2:26 HM can run a 5:04 M. Specifically with M training, people tend to get much better at their HM time because of the excess of endurance training and thus their HM time during a M training plan might drop. Although, I would be hesitant to suggest to someone right before a M to adjust their M goal based on a recent HM time mid-training.

I make my suggestions on training paces based on current fitness and race equivalency. But when race day comes, I use how training went to make my final estimates on pace strategy for my runners. I suggest running by effort and not by watch GPS pace because...

And lol I'll bet nobody trains for a 5:04 marathon, or a 4:04 or 3:04 for that matter. You're a numbers guy I'm sure you've seen the numbers that show marathon finishers' times bunch up in frequency just under each hour mark. A 4:59:59 is a victory and a 5:00:56 is defeat.

The fact that there is this cluster around time barriers that have no physiological meaning tells you everything you need to know. It's all mental... People build mental games and barriers based on these time goals of 3, 4, and 5 hours that exist as a barrier merely because of what happens to them mid-race. I absolutely train for very odd number times because I feel it's the best method for continued long term gains while minimizing the risk for injury. My goal is a sub 3 hour in October 2017. I won't train at sub 3 pace though. I'll train wherever my fitness is at when the marathon training plan comes up. So that might be 3:06:30 or 3:02:17 or 3:11:39. It's all derived from specific paces and "efforts" to train different aspects of endurance running performance.

I bet if more people raced "blind" by effort and used the method appropriately you might very well find less clusters around these time barriers. Someone might superficially hold themselves back from a 2:58 because of the goal of a 3:00, when they end up hitting 3:02 because of the increased perception of effort, or fear, or negativity from a bad split. Just a hunch though.

 

[FFigawi]

Hey @DopeyBadger, remember the PDF you put out a few weeks ago as a reminder to us of the goals we set back in April for the weekend? I think it's about time we check in on how we did.

My goals in the file were: Get to the race. Secondary Goal - Ride ToT, RnR, and TT. A beer along the way is a given.

I skipped Test Track but knocked out all the rest. How did everyone else do?