Marathon Weekend 2020

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Charlie and I completed week 12 of the Hal Higdon Marathon Intermediate 1 schedule in the CVNP. I rolled my ankle in mid-September (just prior to the Akron Marathon), and I had to take almost a month off. Ankle is finally feeling okay, and things are looking good for the marathon.
 
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SAFD:
I just got back from our family trip to Disney. We had a great time, Galaxy’s Edge is just incredible! I can not wait to go back to ride Rise of the Resistance. I share this to say that this past week was not good in terms of runs... The day we left I got in my long run for the week but had three other runs planned during the week and only got one completed. I did have a lot of time on my feet this past week, averaging 10 miles a day. Unfortunately, I came back from the trip sick and missed my long run scheduled for today. I will have to try and fit it in later in the week or create a brutal weekend of back to back long runs.

Doing my Dopey simulation the next week so going to be a rough few weeks. Getting excited for Marathon Weekend and plan to go to HH on Friday but will likely not be able to go to DATW on Monday. Hope everyone has a good week of running!
 
SAFD: I'm training for my first HM. Hadn't missed a single planned run until last week, when we relocated our business to a new shop. Two of my easy runs were dropped; no time. But I did haul a lot of heavy equipment which I'm counting as cross-training.

@DopeyBadger , my long run went well and I'm feeling completely fine today! This week I'll have to shift/combine some runs (to cover all prescribed weekly milage). Back on track next week. Looking forward to the peak phase! Is that when people see the most gains in VDOT?
 
Not that I'm happy that others have been dealing with injuries, but it makes me feel better to know I'm not alone.

I did a half marathon in late September. Unfortunately, I suffered a torn calf muscle a couple weeks before the half marathon. I was able to complete the half marathon and my injury was diagnosed a week or two later. The recovery process included a little over four weeks of limiting walking, taking the elevator instead of stairs and letting it heal. Not good when 48.6 miles are on the horizon.

I got the go-ahead to resume training in early November. It has taken a few weeks to gain confidence that I won't re-injure the calf, but I am now starting to get back to form. However, my runs are still in the single digits in terms of miles. I'll likely need to adjust my time/pace goals for Dopey, but I'll still have fun. I'm hoping to get to double digits in miles for my training runs soon!
 


Has anyone every run with one of the run walk pace groups when their training didn't include run walk?

I am concerned that the run portion being 30 seconds faster than what I've been training towards is going to throw me off.
 
Has anyone every run with one of the run walk pace groups when their training didn't include run walk?
When I did the 2017 WDW Marathon, I tried to run with them, when I was struggling around ESPN WWoS. No chance! I made it five to six intervalls, than I had to leave them. You should better train that ;)
 
@DopeyBadger , my long run went well and I'm feeling completely fine today! This week I'll have to shift/combine some runs (to cover all prescribed weekly milage). Back on track next week. Looking forward to the peak phase! Is that when people see the most gains in VDOT?

So there are two opposing forces acting at this time.

1) Gains in fitness occur when the training you're currently doing is different than what you have been doing. Not too different that it's too much to handle and forces more recovery than adaptation. And not too small a difference that it's barely different than what you were doing thus causing no adaptation to the stimulus. So with that in mind, you should make incremental gains in fitness along the entire path of the training plan. Going through multiple cycles of increases in training, gains in fitness, and then recovery weeks to allow another increase in training. So yes, you should see gains during the peak phase (hoping that it's different than what you had been doing), but additionally, you should have been seeing incremental gains all along the way.

Screen Shot 2019-12-02 at 6.51.42 AM.png

Each of the colored portions represent different training plans (or lack of training). The black line represents my Garmin VO2max value. You can see consistently that the training plan causes incremental gains in VO2max from the beginning of the plan throughout.

This is where missing runs can hurt long term gains. Because if you try and "catch up" you may end up doing too much, and if you "hold pat" then you might end up in stagnation. A little here or there won't mess everything up, but a consistent pattern of missing things will.

2) Garmin VO2max is better described as "VO2peak" than it is "VO2max". Your VO2max is your maximal rate and almost always comes under ideal conditions. What is ideal is probably a bit personalized, but in general it's going to be colder than warmer. So in item #1 above you're hoping to see incremental gains all along the training plan. But the training itself doesn't always occur under static environmental conditions. If you were to start training in cooler weather, and then the end of the training is in warmer weather it might give the appearance that you made no additional fitness gains in the latter portion. But it's entirely possible this case of stagnation is due to the environment and not "fitness gains". In this case, VO2peak is being used as a term to describe your current fitness level under the current conditions. Whereas, VO2max is your current fitness under ideal conditions. So use the "Lakefront M 2017" box in the above graphic. It would seem on the surface that there were little to no gains in Garmin VO2max (or better called VO2peak in this case). But when taking into consideration that that training was started in Spring and finished in late Summer, then it's entirely possible the actual VO2max would be higher. How would we know? Well, let's say that training phase done in the heat ended with a race in cold conditions. You may suddenly find yourself able to race much much faster under the colder conditions. Thus helping to confirm that the fitness did increase but the change in environmental conditions masked that change during the plan itself. Living in the Souther Hemisphere means you're about to enter the Summer months when the temps will increase. So it may seem like you're slowing down for the same effort level and possibly not gaining fitness (or even losing it), but the heat is masking it. If once Disney comes up and it is colder, then you may find yourself racing faster.

Since VDOT is a method of race equivalency, it's more of a in the middle type value. Daniels used other runner's VO2max values and race performances to determine a race equivalency for a single value (VDOT). So the original question was, "When entering peak phase, is this when runners see the most gains in race performance?" And the answer is, the gains are incremental all along the way, and someone's final racing ability will be dictated by the environmental conditions in which the race occurs.
 


Has anyone every run with one of the run walk pace groups when their training didn't include run walk?

I am concerned that the run portion being 30 seconds faster than what I've been training towards is going to throw me off.

Depending on how long the run interval is, you might be able to adjust without too much trouble. If you've been training at 9 min/mile, running 830 for 30 seconds and then walking for 30 seconds sounds much easier than 830 for 90 seconds and walking for 30 seconds. I suppose one other option would be to start just in front of them, allowing you to pull ahead when they walk and for them to catch up when they run. I'd rather do that than start behind them and chase them as they walk.
 
Has anyone every run with one of the run walk pace groups when their training didn't include run walk?

I am concerned that the run portion being 30 seconds faster than what I've been training towards is going to throw me off.

Here were the 2019 Marathon Weekend pace groups:

Screen Shot 2019-12-02 at 8.52.23 AM.png

Which one were you aiming for? We could try and figure out some calcs to determine the pace they might be running at during the run portion.
 
Not that I'm happy that others have been dealing with injuries, but it makes me feel better to know I'm not alone.

Me too. I have had some pain in my hip. I am not a doctor, but foam rolling my IT band greatly helps with it. I have been getting my miles in, but at a slower pace than I would like. It is my first marathon, so I am nervous enough without a tweak in my hip.
 
Roller coaster weather here in Orlando this week. Fairly typical winter weather here. I hope we can ride a low point of the coaster track during Marathon weekend...

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Depending on how long the run interval is, you might be able to adjust without too much trouble. If you've been training at 9 min/mile, running 830 for 30 seconds and then walking for 30 seconds sounds much easier than 830 for 90 seconds and walking for 30 seconds. I suppose one other option would be to start just in front of them, allowing you to pull ahead when they walk and for them to catch up when they run. I'd rather do that than start behind them and chase them as they walk.
My concern with starting ahead of them is that I wind up going out to fast. I usually use pacers to make sure I don't get frisky and go too fast early on when everything seems easy.

Here were the 2019 Marathon Weekend pace groups:

View attachment 456038

Which one were you aiming for? We could try and figure out some calcs to determine the pace they might be running at during the run portion.
I was looking at the 3:50 and 3:40 full pacers. I think those work out to about 8:13 and 7:52 run intervals
 
SAFD: I'm torn on how I feel about my training. I haven't gotten in every single short run I've wanted to, and I still don't quite have the hang of interval training down, but my long runs have all been accomplished and are, on the whole, looking good. And, best of all, I'm injury and Lupus-flare-free so far! the weather down here in Central Florida has been great in the mornings, and I'm enjoying it after a particularly scorching summer/fall. (November Mileage: 105.6 Average Pace: 9:49 minutes/mile)


Now, a question: My longest run so far has been 18 and, while the run itself was great, I felt incredibly nauseated about 15 minutes following the run. The feeling lasted for about 2 hours. Am I right in thinking this is a nutrition issue? I've never had that happen before. I DID take the run faster than I planned, but was feeling so good that I figured I should take advantage of it...
Thoughts?
 
SAFD: I'm torn on how I feel about my training. I haven't gotten in every single short run I've wanted to, and I still don't quite have the hang of interval training down, but my long runs have all been accomplished and are, on the whole, looking good. And, best of all, I'm injury and Lupus-flare-free so far! the weather down here in Central Florida has been great in the mornings, and I'm enjoying it after a particularly scorching summer/fall. (November Mileage: 105.6 Average Pace: 9:49 minutes/mile)


Now, a question: My longest run so far has been 18 and, while the run itself was great, I felt incredibly nauseated about 15 minutes following the run. The feeling lasted for about 2 hours. Am I right in thinking this is a nutrition issue? I've never had that happen before. I DID take the run faster than I planned, but was feeling so good that I figured I should take advantage of it...
Thoughts?

Did you follow a fueling / hydration strategy during the 18 mile run? You may need to adjust the fuel/water/sports drink intake. BTW, I'm not a doctor, trainer, or any kind of health/fitness professional.
 
My concern with starting ahead of them is that I wind up going out to fast. I usually use pacers to make sure I don't get frisky and go too fast early on when everything seems easy.


I was looking at the 3:50 and 3:40 full pacers. I think those work out to about 8:13 and 7:52 run intervals

Calculator here if that will help.

http://www.coachdino.org/runwalk.htm
 
Did you follow a fueling / hydration strategy during the 18 mile run? You may need to adjust the fuel/water/sports drink intake. BTW, I'm not a doctor, trainer, or any kind of health/fitness professional.

I typically run first thing in the morning. I do a GU gel with caffeine about 15 minutes prior to the run, followed by about 4 ounces of coconut water. Following that, I do about 5 Sport Beans every 6 miles and a half bottle of Gatorade around Mile 10. Even typing this out, it seems haphazard and insufficient...
 
SAFD: Add me to the dealing with injuries group. Sprained my ankle pretty badly at the end of September. Running a marathon and Wine and Dine without the ankle healing properly didn’t help. Ankle still hurts especially after long runs so I’ve been keeping the mileage low and doing back to back Spin classes instead.
 
My concern with starting ahead of them is that I wind up going out to fast. I usually use pacers to make sure I don't get frisky and go too fast early on when everything seems easy.


I was looking at the 3:50 and 3:40 full pacers. I think those work out to about 8:13 and 7:52 run intervals

The known variables are the run duration, walk duration, and average pace. The unknowns are the run speed and walking speed. So I used several different walking speeds as inputs to generate the possible run speeds being used. Most people walk around a 16-17 min/mile. But I know people who walk faster and slower. I personally walk at a 19-20 min/mile pace normally.

Screen Shot 2019-12-02 at 12.55.51 PM.png

If the walking pace ranges from a 12 min/mile to a 20 min/mile, then the run pace ranges from a 7:40-8:00 min/mile for the 3:40 M and 7:54-8:20 min/mile for the 3:50 M.

3:40 M race pace equivalency
Screen Shot 2019-12-02 at 12.56.20 PM.png

So for a 3:40 M runner, a 7:40-8:00 min/mile is roughly 10k to HM pace for 3 min with a 30 second rest. Or something like 620m (0.385 miles) intervals at 10k to HM pace.

3:50 M race pace equivalency
Screen Shot 2019-12-02 at 12.56.30 PM.png

So for a 3:50 M runner, a 7:54-8:20 min/mile is roughly 8k to 11 mile race pace for 2.5 min with a 30 second rest. Or something like 500m (0.31 miles) intervals at 8k to 11 mile pace.

The difference between the two is that the 3:50 runner will have to run slightly faster relative to their own fitness level for a slightly shorter time. If a 3:50 M runner tried to do the 3:40 M pace group, then they would be doing roughly 5k-10k pace for those intervals instead of 10k-HM pace.

Interval distance wise the 3:40 is close to 1.5 miles after 4 sets (1.542 miles) and 3:50 is close to 1.5 miles after 5 sets (1.552 miles). So you might consider trying to do an every other type training run to see which methodology you feel most comfortable with. Do 1.5 miles at 8:24 pace, and then 1.5 miles at run/walk, and then 1.5 miles at 8:24 pace, and then 1.5 miles at run/walk. See how they feel differently and whether one feels more sustainable.

Would you mind including the Full/4:30 pace in your analysis. Thank you!

Screen Shot 2019-12-02 at 1.05.19 PM.png

If the walking pace ranges from a 12 min/mile to a 20 min/mile, then the run pace ranges from a 8:52-9:50 min/mile for the 4:30 M.

4:30 M race pace equivalency
Screen Shot 2019-12-02 at 12.56.40 PM.png

So for a 4:30 M runner, a 8:52-9:50 min/mile is roughly 4k to 20k race pace for 90 sec with a 30 second rest. Or something like 262m (0.163 miles) intervals at 4k to 20k pace. Because of the shorter ratio vs the 3:40/3:50 groups above, the walking pace actually used by the pacers becomes more important as to what the actual run pace would end up being. If they walk slower, then it dramatically increases the necessary run pace.

Six intervals gets you to 0.978 miles.
 

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