Autism lawsuits to continue on appeal

[Hoodie]

It looks like the appeals court upheld that Disney is not in violation of ADA, but that the plaintiffs still have standing to sue. Now it's on the plaintiffs to prove that what they want is "reasonable," "necessary" and "does not fundamentally alter the nature" of Disney parks. I think the last one will be the one that will fail.

http://www.wdwinfo.com/news-stories...ul-autism-lawsuits-against-disney-to-proceed/

 

[lanejudy]

There's a thread on the DIS Unplugged Podcast forum with some good explanations of both the current ruling and what needs to be proven for the next decision:
https://www.disboards.com/threads/a...wsuit-over-disability-access-service.3701176/

 

[DOREEN1779]

I have a question. If Six Flags can ask for a Dr.s note to validate a disability and the state can ask for a detailed Dr.'s statement for approval to obtain a placard or handicapped plates, why doesn't Disney? I'm just looking for clarification.

 

[lpereira]

Because those entities are offering enhanced access where Disney is only offering equal access.
Before you ask. Disney used to offer enhanced access. It consumed too much ride capacity. Somewhere in the exhibits is the data that goes with 3% of the park attendees were utilizing 30% of the ride capacity. There will be no more enhanced access at Disney.

 

[DOREEN1779]

Because those entities are offering enhanced access where Disney is only offering equal access.
Before you ask. Disney used to offer enhanced access. It consumed too much ride capacity. Somewhere in the exhibits is the data that goes with 3% of the park attendees were utilizing 30% of the ride capacity. There will be no more enhanced access at Disney.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[SueM in MN]

Because those entities are offering enhanced access where Disney is only offering equal access.
Before you ask. Disney used to offer enhanced access. It consumed too much ride capacity. Somewhere in the exhibits is the data that goes with 3% of the park attendees were utilizing 30% of the ride capacity. There will be no more enhanced access at Disney.

Yes.
The ADA says that proof can’t be required as a condition of providing access.
There are allowances to require proof for things of value, like discounts or free things, and for things that are not available to other people - like handicapped parking or enhanced access.

This article mentions the small number of guests utilizing a large proportion of ride capacity:
http://www.disunplugged.com/2013/01/16/guest-assistance-cards-vs-fastpass-let-the-battle-begin/

I’ve read other articles showed an even higher impact. The first attraction that was mentioned in articles was in Radiator Springs in Disneyland.
Interestingly, if you read the actual lawsuit, many of the plaintiffs in the lawsuit say they need to be able to have immediate access because their child needs to ride the same attraction over and over again in a row - sometimes for hours at a time. Many of the attractions that were mentioned are things with long waits - Peter Pan, Test Track, Winnie the Pooh, etc. Someone going on those attractions repeatedly does impact the waits of other riders.

 

[DisneyOma]

Wow, where are these families getting all the money to pay for these lawsuits?

 

[Hoodie]

What I think is interesting is the plaintiffs seem to be arguing for a right to have equal enjoyment not equal access. I don't know if that is measurable. As both courts noted, DAS provides equal access and is not in violation of the ADA.

I can't imagine the mess that will result if equal enjoyment of anything becomes the legal standard.

 

[paisleys]

Wow, where are these families getting all the money to pay for these lawsuits?

Guessing Attorney Dogali is/was expecting a huge payoff from Disney so it's a pay if you win situation. I'm glad Disney is fighting this instead of just paying like usual. Living in FL, I saw the rampant abuse. I just chaperoned a field trip there where one of the kids told me their parents would have the kids fake being disabled (I won't use the word she used and really had to bite my tongue that day!) to get the GAC. That's just one of many stories I have. A group of adults looping Toy Story with a GAC because one 'had a bad back', yet they could golf all day. I feel like the profoundly disabled have fallen through the cracks due to abuse but I don't know how they could gage being profoundly disabled or not.

 

[stitchloversith]

As a future law student and someone who the ADA covers I have been following this case with interest. The families are not asking for the same access to attractions as the average park goer, they want their child to be able to ride whatever ride they want with no wait and as many times as they want. Disney does not offer a service for this but Universal does called Express Pass. What I would love to see answered and may never be, are these same families willing to pay for Express Pass? If they would be then maybe Disney could bring the GAC back for those that need it and people who want this 'enhanced' experience can buy it. Having done Universal many times both with and without Express Pass I can say that it does not effect the wait times that much. Sure I get more done on an EP day than without but I also like to take my time in the parks due to some of the issues that the ADA covers. At Disney I get fastpasses and if the line is reasonable I will wait otherwise I walk around mostly. When we could still get the GAC I would do more but the system as it is right now doesn't work well for my needs. I do what I can, I go back to my hotel and repeat. Though the number of Disney trips I take has been reduced from about 5 per year to 3 at the top end. This coming year I have two trips planned only one of them includes going into any Disney Park.

 

[Lilsia]

As a future law student and someone who the ADA covers I have been following this case with interest. The families are not asking for the same access to attractions as the average park goer, they want their child to be able to ride whatever ride they want with no wait and as many times as they want. Disney does not offer a service for this but Universal does called Express Pass. What I would love to see answered and may never be, are these same families willing to pay for Express Pass? If they would be then maybe Disney could bring the GAC back for those that need it and people who want this 'enhanced' experience can buy it. Having done Universal many times both with and without Express Pass I can say that it does not effect the wait times that much. Sure I get more done on an EP day than without but I also like to take my time in the parks due to some of the issues that the ADA covers. At Disney I get fastpasses and if the line is reasonable I will wait otherwise I walk around mostly. When we could still get the GAC I would do more but the system as it is right now doesn't work well for my needs. I do what I can, I go back to my hotel and repeat. Though the number of Disney trips I take has been reduced from about 5 per year to 3 at the top end. This coming year I have two trips planned only one of them includes going into any Disney Park.

I don't think you understand the mentality of these people suing. They want what they want, instant, repeated access to any ride they want. And there is no way that they would pay for it since it is their "right" to have it for free. We are not dealing with reasonable people here. Nothing short of them ruling the parks is going to make them happy.

 

[stitchloversith]

I don't think you understand the mentality of these people suing. They want what they want, instant, repeated access to any ride they want. And there is no way that they would pay for it since it is their "right" to have it for free. We are not dealing with reasonable people here. Nothing short of them ruling the parks is going to make them happy.

I think you are right, I do not understand the mentality of these parents. I know that when I go to Disney there are things I cannot do even though I would love to. If I could I would ride TTA for hours at a time, but nothing gives me the 'right' to do this. Not my disabilities, not my park entry, not having a frend who works for Disney. If it is a low crowd day and there is no one in line I may ask to ride a few times in a row but always allow a 'no' answer. Parents and people like the ones suing Disney ruin the fun for people who need the passes. If this is how they are acting with their lawyers as a buffer I can't even imagine what they were saying to the CMs they encountered in the parks. When I cannot stand in a line, I walk around or go back to me hotel, sure it would be nice to when I get to that point be able to use an old school GAC to do one more ride. I have gone into a park and riden one ride then went back to the hotel for the rest of the day because of crowding and lines. But I would never expect Disney to make an exception for me to bypass the system that every other person uses. But this going in for one ride is why I don't buy park tickets much anymore because I start to feel like I am wasting money to be in the park for less than two hours. If I have an active AP completely different story. I have riden the monorail for two hours one day as a park alternative and enjoyed it. Maybe these parents should do that.

 

[mamabunny]

I don't think you understand the mentality of these people suing. They want what they want, instant, repeated access to any ride they want. And there is no way that they would pay for it since it is their "right" to have it for free. We are not dealing with reasonable people here. Nothing short of them ruling the parks is going to make them happy.

Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.

As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently. No matter what anyone says. The reality is, that child has needs that are outside the "norm" and as their parent, you will have to try and meet those needs. In my case, I had one (bio) child (I'm blessed to have several "extra" kids who I love like my own, and who spend holidays with us, and who call us their family) and so I never had the opportunity to parent a "normal" or "regular" kid through childhood. I don't know what that looks like, or how it works. BUT, ask me anything about finding a car seat to fit a newborn infant with bilateral leg casts (hips to toes) or how to introduce your child - and her wheelchair - to her kindergarten class. Ask me about how to keep a suitcase packed for the *next* trip to the Shriner's Hospital - because we never, in her first 18 years, went more than 6 weeks between trips. Ask me about how to comfort a teenage girl who believed that no boy would ever love her because she was in a wheelchair. My experiences as a mother have been profoundly different from most other moms - and that's OK, because I know the truth... that "Normal" is just a setting on the washing machine.

It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable. They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything. And so that is what they do. Is it "right"? Is it "fair"? That's not for us to judge. Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can. For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over. The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again. You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.

Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know. None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story. And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.

 

[Happyinwonerland]

Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.

As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently. No matter what anyone says. The reality is, that child has needs that are outside the "norm" and as their parent, you will have to try and meet those needs. In my case, I had one (bio) child (I'm blessed to have several "extra" kids who I love like my own, and who spend holidays with us, and who call us their family) and so I never had the opportunity to parent a "normal" or "regular" kid through childhood. I don't know what that looks like, or how it works. BUT, ask me anything about finding a car seat to fit a newborn infant with bilateral leg casts (hips to toes) or how to introduce your child - and her wheelchair - to her kindergarten class. Ask me about how to keep a suitcase packed for the *next* trip to the Shriner's Hospital - because we never, in her first 18 years, went more than 6 weeks between trips. Ask me about how to comfort a teenage girl who believed that no boy would ever love her because she was in a wheelchair. My experiences as a mother have been profoundly different from most other moms - and that's OK, because I know the truth... that "Normal" is just a setting on the washing machine.

It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable. They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything. And so that is what they do. Is it "right"? Is it "fair"? That's not for us to judge. Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can. For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over. The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again. You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.

Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know. None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story. And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.

But pretty much all children want to ride over and over again, and many will have a tantrum if/when they can't. While I have strong compassion for children/parents of children wih these needs, it doesn't mean they get to set the rules of a private business. Sometimes, life is frustrating and unpleaseant Sometimes we don't get what we want. Sometimes the good of the many overrides the good of the few.

Nowhere else would a child be able to ride over and over when there are 45 minutes to hours long lines behind them. It just isn't practical in terms of crowd flow.

Consider this: What if Disney offered sensory friendly days, where guests could have all of their needs met. Say, maybe the first hour or 2 of the day enough kids who wanted stay on all day boarded Aladdin and refused to get off, so that no new riders could get a seat. Would you feel it was fair to be in line behind them then? Or would you ask Disney to set limits so that everyone got a fair day?

 

[DisneyOma]

Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.

As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently. No matter what anyone says. The reality is, that child has needs that are outside the "norm" and as their parent, you will have to try and meet those needs. In my case, I had one (bio) child (I'm blessed to have several "extra" kids who I love like my own, and who spend holidays with us, and who call us their family) and so I never had the opportunity to parent a "normal" or "regular" kid through childhood. I don't know what that looks like, or how it works. BUT, ask me anything about finding a car seat to fit a newborn infant with bilateral leg casts (hips to toes) or how to introduce your child - and her wheelchair - to her kindergarten class. Ask me about how to keep a suitcase packed for the *next* trip to the Shriner's Hospital - because we never, in her first 18 years, went more than 6 weeks between trips. Ask me about how to comfort a teenage girl who believed that no boy would ever love her because she was in a wheelchair. My experiences as a mother have been profoundly different from most other moms - and that's OK, because I know the truth... that "Normal" is just a setting on the washing machine.

It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable. They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything. And so that is what they do. Is it "right"? Is it "fair"? That's not for us to judge. Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can. For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over. The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again. You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.

Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know. None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story. And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.

While I get the idea you are trying to reach, the contradictions in this post don't make sense to me. So, is there a "norm" or not? You state that there is and there isn't, so I'm confused.

My take on all of the fuss these parents are creating is that they want the GAC back. And that's not fair, as it blocked out the ability of many other people being able to ride some attractions, mainly at Disneyland, in my understanding. These parents have heard the explanations as to why the answer is "NO". They don't care. So they are being selfish, in the way that their kids deserve more than other people, only because they are disabled.

 

[Mrsjvb]

Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.

[...]
It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable. They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything. And so that is what they do. Is it "right"? Is it "fair"? That's not for us to judge. Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can. For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over. The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again. You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.

Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know. None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story. And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.

see the thing is that one of these kids( actually I think biologically an adult now) gets super violent according to Mom if he doesn't get his way 24/7. and she cannot control him any more. she is demanding that Disney alter everything about the park experience to cater to her kid's needs. and that IS selfish, not to mention dangerous for other park goers.

no one regardless of circumstances is entitled to loop a ride. ever. the people in this lawsuit are demanding an enhanced experience. they are basically saying they want to cram 12 hours worth of rides, shows and character interactions into half that time or less.. same with instant access. its not fair to the people who stalk the website at the 90 day mark to snag those 3 covered FP+ times on the popular rides only to be bumped by someone else who plays the disabled card.

and yes I am disabled although it is physical only and a DAS is of zero advantage to me. I can wait in lines just fine even though like most other people I would rather not.

 

[gap2368]

Let's stop a second, and take a breath - and more importantly, let's assume positive intent on the part of *everyone* involved.

As the parent of a disabled child, I can tell you - from 24 years of experience - that when your child is "different", you have to parent differently. No matter what anyone says. The reality is, that child has needs that are outside the "norm" and as their parent, you will have to try and meet those needs. In my case, I had one (bio) child (I'm blessed to have several "extra" kids who I love like my own, and who spend holidays with us, and who call us their family) and so I never had the opportunity to parent a "normal" or "regular" kid through childhood. I don't know what that looks like, or how it works. BUT, ask me anything about finding a car seat to fit a newborn infant with bilateral leg casts (hips to toes) or how to introduce your child - and her wheelchair - to her kindergarten class. Ask me about how to keep a suitcase packed for the *next* trip to the Shriner's Hospital - because we never, in her first 18 years, went more than 6 weeks between trips. Ask me about how to comfort a teenage girl who believed that no boy would ever love her because she was in a wheelchair. My experiences as a mother have been profoundly different from most other moms - and that's OK, because I know the truth... that "Normal" is just a setting on the washing machine.

It's NOT OK to assume that a parent that is trying to advocate for their child is simply being stubborn or selfish or unreasonable. They may not know, or be able to see, that their request is considered by the majority to be extreme; they only know that for the entire life of their child, they have had to advocate for everything. And so that is what they do. Is it "right"? Is it "fair"? That's not for us to judge. Instead, let's try to remember that they are trying to give their child the best possible experience they can. For their children, that means being able to ride the same ride over and over. The children that they are advocating for don't know that their parents are acting outside the bounds of "normalcy" when they ask for these special accommodations - they only know that they want to ride the ride again. You don't have to agree with their request of Disney, but at least try to understand *why* those parents are asking for these accommodations to be granted.

Let's all try to discuss this without casting aspersions on people we don't personally know. None of us wish to be judged unfairly by anyone - especially someone who doesn't know us, and doesn't know our entire story. And let's give that same grace to all of the parties involved in this legal action.

@mamabunny thank you for this but mostly the bold I have had a second mom who treated me ( still does ) as her own she helped me though so much and I sometimes put her though a lot. I would not be the person I am today without her. So think younfor being there for your own child but also the others.

 

[Happyinwonerland]

see the thing is that one of these kids( actually I think biologically an adult now) gets super violent according to Mom if he doesn't get his way 24/7. and she cannot control him any more. she is demanding that Disney alter everything about the park experience to cater to her kid's needs. and that IS selfish, not to mention dangerous for other park goers.

no one regardless of circumstances is entitled to loop a ride. ever. the people in this lawsuit are demanding an enhanced experience. they are basically saying they want to cram 12 hours worth of rides, shows and character interactions into half that time or less.. same with instant access. its not fair to the people who stalk the website at the 90 day mark to snag those 3 covered FP+ times on the popular rides only to be bumped by someone else who plays the disabled card.

and yes I am disabled although it is physical only and a DAS is of zero advantage to me. I can wait in lines just fine even though like most other people I would rather not.

I don't understand the thought process of putting the child and others in harm's way in this situation. If the child becomes out of control and violent in a crowded area or on a movimg ride, it could quickly turn into a very dangerous thing. What if they fall out of a coaster or knock someone down stairs or into the water during this situation. I'm all for equality, but your rights end where another's begin.

 

[Disneylvr]

I don't understand the thought process of putting the child and others in harm's way in this situation. If the child becomes out of control and violent in a crowded area or on a movimg ride, it could quickly turn into a very dangerous thing. What if they fall out of a coaster or knock someone down stairs or into the water during this situation. I'm all for equality, but your rights end where another's begin.

Are all the families claiming their loved one could become violent if they don't get to repeat rides or is it just this one mom?

 

[Mrsjvb]

Are all the families claiming their loved one could become violent if they don't get to repeat rides or is it just this one mom?

I believe it is only this one parent who is going on the record that if Junior doesn't get to loop a ride( I think its Toy story? not sure) multiple times he gets violent. the rest of the parents are essentially wanting FOTL access to all attractions they wish to do without having to get FP+ or wait outside the line a reasonable time frame as compared to everyone else's wait. the lawsuit is claiming that none of the plaintiffs can 'wait' at all.

in other words, they are wanting special access that is not otherwise available to the rank and file. this is why Disney keeps winning the legal arguments.