DVC was Sears but it's become Saks . . . in case you wonder why you're feeling whiplash

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Mickey of the Villages

Can't have nice things
Joined
May 6, 2019
Compare OKW to RIV. Compare Olivia's Cafe to Topolino's Terrance. Do you see where I'm going?

OKW was intended to be a utilitarian first step into time shares that appealed to a broad group of middle-class vacationers: large rooms, affordable price, and the amenities of a moderate-deluxish resort. It was Sears. Well, Sears is dead.

RIV appeals to the wealthy or at least the young with disposable income and tastes like the wealthy. It is priced for the group for which it is intended.

Disney sees the future. The future is making more money from fewer people unlike the past where it needed to make money from a broad swath of the economy.

When you wonder why folks will buy RIV with all of its restrictions, when you wonder why anyone would pay so much for points, when you wonder what's going to happen next you may be a Sears shopper. Because the folks in Saks (buyers at RIV and future DVC resorts) are not worried about all that stuff, at least not worried enough to not buy contracts.

All of this reminds me of the Rule on Yachts. If you have to ask how much they cost you can not afford one. I think more and more if you have to ask whether you can afford RIV (and its restrictions) or future resorts than you probably are not the intended audience.

BTW, I love Sears. But Saks sure is fancy.
 
We don’t fit in to any of the above-mentioned categories. We are not fools, wealthy or young. Do you feel the same way about those that bought at Grand Floridian? Very pricey and pointy to stay at.

Disney today is not the Disney that us older folks grew up with. It’s been slowly changing, sometimes for better and sometimes not so much. Just like everything else in life. You can accept it and go with the flow as much as you are comfortable with, or you can walk around being resentful , angry and sad. Life is too short. I choose to be happy and don’t let the bad bring me down.
 


We don’t fit in to any of the above-mentioned categories. We are not fools, wealthy or young. Do you feel the same way about those that bought at Grand Floridian? Very pricey and pointy to stay at.

Disney today is not the Disney that us older folks grew up with. It’s been slowly changing, sometimes for better and sometimes not so much. Just like everything else in life. You can accept it and go with the flow as much as you are comfortable with, or you can walk around being resentful , angry and sad. Life is too short. I choose to be happy and don’t let the bad bring me down.
I think that one can draw a line from OKW to RIV with Grand Floridian along the way. I believe that DVC is moving towards much more "pricey and pointy." I agree that Disney today is not Disney of my 20s (the 90s). I think the direction that it is going is mostly positive (I don't like stories of drunk folks at EPCOT). I do think it is conceivable that prices there could rise to a point where there is a fundamental change in the place.
 
This isn't quite the analogy in my mind of what is happening. The clothes and shoes of Saks are/were certainly nicer than those of Sears. This reminds me of the mom of a childhood friend. She would insist in buying goods from a privately owned high end store - the kind with a bridal registry vs. the local Kmart down the street. She would buy the exact same Kodak camera at the specialty store for more $$$. It wasn't a better camera. It wasn't a different camera. It was the same camera from the high end store with the nicer shopping bags but she felt it was a 'nicer camera' because it came from Murray's vs. Kmart. The offerings aren't nicer: They are just more expensive.
 
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OKW was around $56 when it first sold, which is around $113 in today’s dollars. Back then, the minimum was 230 points so I think those buying in were spending a good chunk of money.

Yes, the price now is more, and RIV is certainly a move away from that “home away from home” feeling of condos to a large hotel.

Not sure I’d characterize today’s DVC buyer, though, as the way you did. Just think people today have different ideas of what they want and DVC is adjusting that.
 


Not sure I agree with the “it’s not nicer just more expensive” thing. I’ve read soooo many threads about how shabby and worn and dirty BWV is. Although I vehemently disagree with those observations. And can’t really comment about how much nicer Riviera will be until I stay there. Which will be soon. Sadly my BWV will end in 2042. But my Riviera will still be around for a few decades. And I have to say, as much as I love my BWV, Riviera has so much going for it. Reviews from many blogs say the counter service there is phenomenal. Topolinos is outstanding. An adults only pool....deal breaker! The “quiet pool” is anything but sometimes at BWV. So frustrating...those that enjoy the quiet pool know what I speak of. At Riviera you Don’t have to go outside for anything (many will say that’s a drawback with BWV). Yes definitely more expensive. So is a new car vs a pre owned. But to each their own. I just think it is really not nice to disparage people that have decided to buy at Riviera.
 
Not sure I agree with the “it’s not nicer just more expensive” thing. I’ve read soooo many threads about how shabby and worn and dirty BWV is. Although I vehemently disagree with those observations. And can’t really comment about how much nicer Riviera will be until I stay there.

25 years from now, based on refurb schedules, RIV will probably be shabby, worn and dirty in the same way people say BWV is now. We have also seen, repeatedly, that decor regresses to a norm once a resort is sold through and hits the refurbs.

RIV is new. That doesn't mean it'll stay new. The counter service is good? Well, that isn't part of the condo association and is subject to change. Ditto Topolino's. Both are commercial spaces subject to inevitable change, and inevitable "it's gotten so much more bland thanks to DDP" in 5 years.

I don't think RIV buyers should be disparaged, but I also think that saying it is a luxury property is off. The pricing is way up. But then again, some people pay the child price at 'Ohana for what amounts to a $3 Happy Meal, and that doesn't make it haute cuisine or fine dining. There is no luxury property on Disney property.
 
Whatever. I’m happy with my decision. My kids and grandkids will be too...and if they are not that means the whole world has gone “to pot” as my Dad used to say. Good night and have a nice life. Done with this conversation.
 
The people I know who truly have a lot of disposable income would not be caught dead buying a timeshare - they pay cash. But I get your point. I've been blown away by the expectations my peer group now have on what makes a great vacation. A week at a beautiful, all inclusive beach resort in Mexico has become the norm for a girl's trip, instead of a few nights in a hotel that has a spa. The economy has been good for a while and people are comfortable (at least around my area). Nothing wrong with these trips to be sure, but I agree that people have 'plussed' their lifestyles to some extent.

I agree with the comment above that DVC is just adjusting to what it sees people wanting right now.
 
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The people I know who truly have a lot of disposable income would not be caught dead buying a timeshare - they pay cash.
??
What's your basis for that statement? I don't think people who have managed to accumulate "a lot of disposable income" (whatever that means - it may mean something different to you as compared to me) got that way by spending it carelessly.
 
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I live in an area that has had a tremendous economy the last 10 years or so. Believe me, tons of disposable income. It was surprising to me to see that they viewed DVC the way they do, sort of as a poorer relation. I'm an owner and just shake my head and move on.

I did not intend to imply that everyone who has done well is careless, I apologize if it came across that way.
 
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Compare OKW to RIV. Compare Olivia's Cafe to Topolino's Terrance. Do you see where I'm going?

OKW was intended to be a utilitarian first step into time shares that appealed to a broad group of middle-class vacationers: large rooms, affordable price, and the amenities of a moderate-deluxish resort. It was Sears. Well, Sears is dead.

RIV appeals to the wealthy or at least the young with disposable income and tastes like the wealthy. It is priced for the group for which it is intended.

Disney sees the future. The future is making more money from fewer people unlike the past where it needed to make money from a broad swath of the economy.

When you wonder why folks will buy RIV with all of its restrictions, when you wonder why anyone would pay so much for points, when you wonder what's going to happen next you may be a Sears shopper. Because the folks in Saks (buyers at RIV and future DVC resorts) are not worried about all that stuff, at least not worried enough to not buy contracts.

All of this reminds me of the Rule on Yachts. If you have to ask how much they cost you can not afford one. I think more and more if you have to ask whether you can afford RIV (and its restrictions) or future resorts than you probably are not the intended audience.

BTW, I love Sears. But Saks sure is fancy.
The whole thing with RIV is that I really don't think the target market is the family of parents with kids. I think the target market is childless millennials, empty nesters and grandparents. This is a huge part of who pays to go to Disney and there really wasn't a resort that targeted them.
 
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'snip' The pricing is way up. But then again, some people pay the child price at 'Ohana for what amounts to a $3 Happy Meal, and that doesn't make it haute cuisine or fine dining. There is no luxury property on Disney property.

And there are no Disney Parks within walking distance of any offsite luxury property.
 
Yes, the price now is more, and RIV is certainly a move away from that “home away from home” feeling of condos to a large hotel.

Not sure I’d characterize today’s DVC buyer, though, as the way you did. Just think people today have different ideas of what they want and DVC is adjusting that.
I agree they have completely changed the way they market DVC, no longer using the home away from home description or category. What's interesting to me is the progression of DVC is actually moving toward less luxury. When you think about when OKW was built, the accommodations were better and an upgrade from the hotel rooms, you were getting more space, more amenities. Now they are offering the smallest and most condensed space possible, Unless you are getting a 1 or 2 bed, the DVC studio rooms are not an upgrade from a regular hotel room. For example, the new tower rooms are smaller than a value resort room, regular studios do not even have a table or desk anymore, and I know I am in the minority here, but to me murphy beds are a downgrade from a real hotel room with two beds. JMO.

Not trying to be a total debbie downer, I mean I am an owner after all, but I do agree that it's going in another direction from what it was 10-15 years ago. I agree the target market is looking for different things.

A also agree that the "luxury" we are seeing is putting a Sack's label on Sears quality. ;)
 
I live in an area that has had a tremendous economy the last 10 years or so. Believe me, tons of disposable income. It was surprising to me to see that they viewed DVC the way they do, sort of as a poorer relation. I'm an owner and just shake my head and move on.

I did not intend to imply that everyone who has done well is careless, I apologize if it came across that way.
No apology needed! I was kind of reacting to the "would not be caught dead buying a timeshare," which made me think that they were more concerned about appearances than about actual financial benefits.

I am still curious, though. I live in the NYC metro area where anywhere you look, income disparity is incredible. There will always be someone who seems like they have lots more disposable income, but there are also a lot of people who live on credit, spend beyond their means, finance everything... what they're spending may not be disposable income, or even income at all. Here, obvious measures of "wealth" (rent v. own your home, do you own a car, do you take the subway regularly, etc.) don't really tell you anything about whether a person actually has means. I have spoken to people here who I know are wealthy by most people's definitions, and if they love Disney, they are actually listening to whether DVC makes sense for them over paying cash to stay on site.
 
regular studios do not even have a table or desk anymore
I believe this is just the refurbished rooms at Saratoga. As far as I know all other studios have a table and chairs. As for the desk one could say you are exchanging the kitchenette for a desk so it is a trade off.
For example, the new tower rooms are smaller than a value resort room
This would be the only rooms smaller than the typical value resort room. I think with it you are getting a cheaper per point cost while staying at a resort with more amenities. So to most it won't be an apples to apples comparison for some people since more than size matters.

But I agree the target audience is changing and it is a reality that happens to all businesses. They can chose to adopt to a new target audience or cater to an aging core audience, thus limiting growth. With DVC it's really about the US demographics changing and what constitutes a family (smaller size, older parents, childless couples, etc.) is quite different today than 10 or 20 years ago. But the nice part about DVC is that room sizing, heavy resort theming (think AKL, WL, etc), etc. can't really be changed easily so there is a DVC for most.
 
We don’t fit in to any of the above-mentioned categories. We are not fools, wealthy or young. Do you feel the same way about those that bought at Grand Floridian? Very pricey and pointy to stay at.

Disney today is not the Disney that us older folks grew up with. It’s been slowly changing, sometimes for better and sometimes not so much. Just like everything else in life. You can accept it and go with the flow as much as you are comfortable with, or you can walk around being resentful , angry and sad. Life is too short. I choose to be happy and don’t let the bad bring me down.
I love Disney, I do... do I like what's been trending? Absolutely not.. I do feel that current powers-that-be are making it about money and profit, but this is a business at the end of the day - they can try to spin it into being "beneficial" and "in the guest's best interest" but it is what it is - a money-making entity - point blank. Maybe one day someone will take the reigns that actually does care about making dreams come true as they used to, but until then I will continue to enjoy what I can and give my 2 cents-worth whenever I'm asked - who knows? Someone may actually listen ;)
 
The funny thing about the analogy is Sears is almost out of business.

If you look at the recent DVC openings, they fit different audiences. I think Poly and Copper Creek are more for the family crowd, GF and Riviera are more adult. Personally, I love the variety. Have stayed at all except SSR, CC, Riviera (will in April), Vero, Aulani, HH.

I've been a member over 20 years and couldn't be happier. Originally bought at BWV in 1999 and swore that was it and stayed that way for 20 years. Earlier this month, bought a VGC resale, love the place.
 
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