Harvey Weinstein

[Hikergirl]

First, this is a subject that riles me. I am not intending to upset/offend anyone. BUT if you (general) are upset or offended by my words/tone, take a step back and look into yourself and ask yourself why before you respond, please.

On behalf of survivors everywhere, Lisa (and believe me we are EVERYWHERE)....
Thank you. Thank you. THANK YOU.

There IS. NO. RIGHT. WAY. FOR. VICTIMS. TO. ACT. P E R I O D.

Not a SINGLE ONE of these survivors are responsible for Weinstein's actions. They are not serial predators/rapists. They have not been abusing their positions of power to victimize the powerless for decades. They have not forcibly (Yep, forcibly INCLUDES COERCION) claimed another persons body/mind through their actions. They are not responsible, they are not required to act a certain way, and they don't owe you (general) or society ANYTHING.

And EVERY SINGLE PERSON who reacts with this victim blaming horse... poo is PART OF THE REASON MEN LIKE THIS ARE ALLOWED TO SURVIVE AND THRIVE!

When society responds by scrutinizing the victims actions, we end up thinking of these cases almost like perfect storms. "Well yes, he acted horrendously... BUT if the victims had/hadn't done XYZ and the other then it wouldn't have happened/been as bad." I get that mindset. It protects you. it makes you feel like you would have some measure of power to stop it if you found yourself/a loved one in that situation.
But guess what? That security is FALSE. It CAN happen to you, your daughters/sons, your sisters/brothers, your mothers/fathers.

And until we as a society can all together, every single one of us, lay blame ONLY at the perpetrators feet, this will always be happening.

"But why oh why didn't these women come forward earlier??????"

Look at what's being said about them. Look at how they are being treated. There's your answer.

Yes you are right, we are everywhere.
The two women I mentioned were victim's of Harvey's inappropriate advances. They were not raped, they were not physically molested, they were not victims of physical sexual abuse. They were victims of verbal sexual harrassment, and according to them it was 1 time. 1 time.
And of course the victims are not responsible for his behavior, nobody ever said it was, that is just a strawman argument.
Now, you can continue to stick your fingers in your ears because you don't want to hear this but it is the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts. Here it is.
Those 2 specific women who I mentioned have been vocal publicly about sexual abuse against women. They were harassed by someone who was known to behave that way, and there were women who he physically violated, raped, not just verbally harassed. In all the years that those women kept silent they condoned that behavior. They knew what he was doing to women, but they had their own career to worry about. I didn't see either of them at their podiums mentioning Weinstein when talking about how we as a society can't tolerate sexual abuse against women. So yes I will call those women hipcorites because that is exactly what they are. Telling others it can't be tolerated, and to stand up against it. Where they hell were they when HW was raping those other women? They were enjoying their life made possible by the industry that protects those who make the money, that is where.

 

[Party.Of.4-NY>>>FL]

Whistling and catcalling by boys is pretty normal behavior for boys and men. Not even in the same league as sexual harassment.

Boys-maybe/maybe not

Men-definitely not

 

[porschegrl]

Whistling and catcalling by boys is pretty normal behavior for boys and men.

Common? Sadly, yes.

Normal? No.

 

[hereyago]

So he is saying he is going to rehab for a sex addiction? Really? Is he having countless CONSENSUAL affairs, prostitutes?

Cause what he did to those women had nothing to do with an sex addiction, it had to do with power and control (not just his professional power).

 

[NYCgrrl]

The adolescent cat caller of today could be the sexual harasser of tomorrow.
If no one teaches a young person to NOT objectify another person based on appearance they will continue to think it is fine as an adult.

 

[Party.Of.4-NY>>>FL]

....and for the sake of perspective, and reciprocity I would submit the following:

(As a man, I shudder to think of this actually happening in the real world. I probably would have hid in my house, under my blanket, with lights off and the curtains closed all through my teens and 20's for fear of being exposed to this type of treatment from random women walking down the street.)

 

[NYCgrrl]

Apparently, the NY Times had this story in 2004, but refused to run it. Go figure.

Are you sure you didn't confuse the NYT with a different part of the media?
The Times wrote a 2 part story on Mr. Weinstein's recent accusers and essentially broke the story.

Going to double check but pretty sure they also reported on the Italian actress/model who accused Weinstein of sexual misconduct at a NYC hotel some years back.

 

[LadyOfDunBroch]

Yes you are right, we are everywhere.
The two women I mentioned were *1* victim's of Harvey's inappropriate advances. They were not raped, they were not physically molested, they were not victims of physical sexual abuse. They were victims of verbal sexual harrassment, and according to them it was 1 time. 1 time.
*2* And of course the victims are not responsible for his behavior, nobody ever said it was, that is just a strawman argument.
*3* Now, you can continue to stick your fingers in your ears because you don't want to hear this but it is the truth, and sometimes the truth hurts Here it is.
Those 2 specific women who I mentioned have been vocal publicly about sexual abuse against women. They were harassed by someone who was known to behave that way, and there were women who he physically violated, raped, not just verbally harassed. *4* In all the years that those women kept silent they condoned that behavior. They knew what he was doing to women, but they had their own career to worry about. I didn't see either of them at their podiums mentioning Weinstein when talking about how we as a society can't tolerate sexual abuse against women. So yes I will call those women hipcorites because that is exactly what they are. Telling others it can't be tolerated, and to stand up against it. Where they hell were they when HW was raping those other women? They were enjoying their life made possible by the industry that protects those who make the money, that is where.

Well, I wasn't aiming that at any person in particular but since you responded....here we go.

*1* They were victims. Your words. I didn't tried to categorize them, but am I understanding correctly that are victims and there are VICTIMS? Will you elaborate?

*2*

They were definitely in a position to be believed and keep him from doing it to the new generation of actresses trying to get to the A-list.

Can you understand my confusion with this being labeled a "strawman argument" when you yourself said they could "keep him from doing it" to other women?

*3* I am willing to hear and listen to anything and everything from any and every type of person, and then decide for myself if it is logical. I am still struggling to see the logic in your argument, but I assure you am willing to listen and discuss.

*4* I will stand by my original comment that victims, *all victims*, do not owe anybody anything.

 

[snoodledoo]

Whistling and catcalling by boys is pretty normal behavior for boys and men.

 

[smiths02]

Where they hell were they when HW was raping those other women? They were enjoying their life made possible by the industry that protects those who make the money, that is where.

From an article: Judd explained that it took awhile to fully realize what happened to her, and also elaborated on her thought process in the months and years after it occurred. “I beat myself up for a while,” she said. “This is another part of the process. We internalize the shame. It really belongs to the person who is the aggressor. And so later, when I was able to see what happened, I thought: Oh god, that’s wrong. That’s sexual harassment. That’s illegal. I was really hard on myself because I didn’t get out of it by saying, ‘O.K. motherf—er, I’m calling the police.‘”

It wasn't just enjoying their careers.
Also, as you pointed out, they were each harassed one time. And for Judd, Paltrow, and Jolie, they were able to say no.
They were young and did not have the same podium they have now, if they each came out one at a time....either they would have been settled with and not allowed to disclose or they would have been destroyed (career, sued, everything). It would be he said/she said, boys will be boys, etc.

ETA: Also, apparently they did warn others in the business. They also made public statements about a Hollywood bigwig, but they may not have been allowed to say his name (news agencies, publishers, etc. might have just edited it out anyhow)

 

[lisaviolet]

In all the years that those women kept silent they condoned that behavior. They knew what he was doing to women, but they had their own career to worry about.

We don't know if they kept completely silent Hikergirl. We don't know what actions they took or not. And we certainly have no clue if their career was a deciding factor. Calling them hypocrites means that you think that you know all the ins and outs of their choices and decisions over the years. We do not. Yesterday I did not know what Ashley Judd's complete story was in regarding to Weinstein. I was merely adding more possibilities of the why one makes certain decisions if one has prior assault - I obviously have no clue if Judd's prior childhood sexual abuse impacted anything with Weinstein - and lives with those decisions.

I think it is a stretch to think that either of these women thought I better go directly to the police as it might go further and he might rape other women. I have had harassing behaviour towards me. I certainly did not leap to the conclusion that they are or would become rapists. And two out of the three times I went absolutely nowhere with it.

 

[LadyOfDunBroch]

From an article: Judd explained that it took awhile to fully realize what happened to her, and also elaborated on her thought process in the months and years after it occurred. “I beat myself up for a while,” she said. “This is another part of the process. We internalize the shame. It really belongs to the person who is the aggressor. And so later, when I was able to see what happened, I thought: Oh god, that’s wrong. That’s sexual harassment. That’s illegal. I was really hard on myself because I didn’t get out of it by saying, ‘O.K. motherf—er, I’m calling the police.‘”

THIS. And when the knee-jerk societal response when we find out someone was victimized is "What did you do wrong?" you can definitely see why so many survivors harbor shame and guilt about what happened to them.

 

[Gumbo4x4]

Whistling and catcalling by boys is pretty normal behavior for boys and men. Not I even in the same league as sexual harassment.

While not on the same level as groping, it's absolutely harassment.

 

[AnnaFloridaLover]

Whistling and catcalling by boys is pretty normal behavior for boys and men. Not I even in the same league as sexual harassment.

Not for my boys and men is it normal behaviour. They were raised to respect females not to objectify them. Only punks catcall and whistle and it absolutely IS sexual harassment. But you know that, don't you?

 

[mom2rtk]

Not for my boys and men is it normal behaviour. They were raised to respect females not to objectify them. Only punks catcall and whistle and it absolutely IS sexual harassment. But you know that, don't you?

Totally agree. My boys would never do this. I would consider it a failure in my parenting if they did.

 

[NYCgrrl]

NYPD has started a criminal investigation from an incident in 2004.
FBI has opened an investigation.
I wonder if after his "rehabilitation" in Europe we will ever see him in the US again?

Not quite an investigation by NYPD according to a statement it released:

"Based on information referenced in published news reports the NYPD is conducting a review to determine if there are any additional complaints relating to the Harvey Weinstein matter. No filed complaints have been identified as of this time and as always, the NYPD encourages anyone who may have information pertaining to this matter to call the CrimeStoppers Hotline at 1-800-577-TIPS."

More like a "pants are falling down on the merry go round" moment......

IF the FBI plans to investigate Mr. Weinstein I find the irony force strong given who the agency's head answers to currently.

 

[lisaviolet]

On behalf of survivors everywhere, Lisa (and believe me we are EVERYWHERE)....
Thank you. Thank you. THANK YOU.

At first, I was uncomfortable with the thank you as I honestly felt it was merely adding relevant information that is important for the understanding with people's decision making over time. And I felt that it was being overlooked on the first go around.

And then I came to my senses and will just say ---- you're welcome LadyOfDunBroch.

Fame and fortune rule with both men and women actors in Allen's situation. Good for the few that stand up vocally against him though.

I haven't read it Anna. I will go back later. Thanks.

Okay, I read it. Thank you Anna.

And wow. I don't know. I am uncomfortable with so many going on that this is a family matter in their defense of praising Allen and working with him. But two things stuck out to me --

*even if you see this as a situation where Allen was not charged - the case was only stopped because Farrow and the DA worried about the welfare of her daughter over time -and therefore you compute that as innocence well all you have to do is read more. Allen himself, before there were any charges, went to therapy because he was sneaking into his daughter's room at night and sleeping with her. Sneaking being an important word. And he had her suck his thumb. He has admitted both issues. That last one alone would be enough for me to not see this as a family matter (not that I ever would think in those terms and boy that must just gut his daughter, those words used over and over).

And this ---

*Ronan himself, with deep regret now, asked his sister to stop speaking about it. And that is another point people forget about speaking out. I even forgot. Sometimes loved ones, family, colleagues can really impact people's strength and decision making around speaking out. About anything - harassment to sexual abuse and assault.

 

[lisaviolet]

So he is saying he is going to rehab for a sex addiction? Really? Is he having countless CONSENSUAL affairs, prostitutes?

Cause what he did to those women had nothing to do with an sex addiction, it had to do with power and control (not just his professional power).

Unbelievable, eh?

It was just sex. So delusional.

 

[scoutie]

Those 2 specific women who I mentioned have been vocal publicly about sexual abuse against women. They were harassed by someone who was known to behave that way, and there were women who he physically violated, raped, not just verbally harassed. In all the years that those women kept silent they condoned that behavior

Have you ever had to stand up to somebody who was in a position of power when it could affect your career? I have, and it usually goes nowhere, and then your career/evaluation/reputation is in jeopardy. I'm betting the actresses you are mentioning told somebody, and then they were told there was nothing they could do. They were likely told that it would go nowhere, that others had tried, and nothing could be done. They probably weighed the pros and cons of the situation and figured they could cause a stink and nothing would change, except they would suffer. Look at the things Taylor Swift went through when she stood up to the guy that sexually harassed her. People turned on her, she was called terrible names, and she had a lawsuit brought up against her. And she's Taylor Swift, not some lesser known rising star in no position of power.

THIS. And when the knee-jerk societal response when we find out someone was victimized is "What did you do wrong?" you can definitely see why so many survivors harbor shame and guilt about what happened to them

Right. You just have to look at some of the comments here. "Why did she wait so long? Why didn't they speak up sooner?" Victims feel like they are the only ones going through something. When somebody else speaks up, there is strength in numbers.

Whistling and catcalling by boys is pretty normal behavior for boys and men. Not I even in the same league as sexual harassment.

I've dealt with catcalls which started at the age of 13 when a guy yelled, "I'd like the f*** that pretty little a**" at me out the car window, and I absolutely feel harassed when it happens. Normalizing the behavior is part of the problem.

 

[Boardwalk Jedi]

I think this is pretty normal in the Hollywood culture. Drugs, sex, pedophilia,...God only knows what goes on. Of course there's the hypocrisy of these elitist which is a whole other topic. I can't say I'm surprised nor do have one ounce of sympathy for any of them.

If you never encountered a sexual harasser then you are very young or very lucky. Most of us can walk away and avoid the person, but many times it "saturates" the work environment even if you are not a victim. I'm not calling many of these women hypocrites because a lot of them did what most women have done and avoid the particular person. I've heard a lot of people judging these girls who turned the man down and tried/did find work without having to deal with him too much. I think those making comments are pretty high and mighty, have forgotten what it's like to work with a jerk, or are little grandiose about how perfectly they would have handled it.