Permit Filed: France Pavilion at Epcot

[rteetz]

Next look at China. To see the type of architecture and garden in the China pavilion, one has to go in search of tourist areas that represent the China of centuries past. The Forbidden City and places like that. To me it does not fit your desire for "real places". It is real in the touristy real sense.

If they went with real China they'd have to put in a major city with smog. That doesn't seem very appealing to me.

When I walk around Epcot, I see Snow White M&Gs at Germany. And a Snow White topiary during Flower & Garden. Did anything in that movie say it was Germany? I do not remember it. They certainly did not speak with German accents. To me it was a placeless fairy tale, even more so than Arendelle which intentionally is based on Norway.

To me a character standing outside a pavilion or a topiary outside a pavilion is not the same than a major meet and greet building and ride. Frozen took over the Norway pavilion. Snow White didn't take over Germany.

 

[HydroGuy]

I disagree. Sure there are some connections never in the movie is it said they are in Norway or near Norway. I believe they mention Scandinavian culture but to me that doesn't specifically mean Norway. I think Imagineering did a good job creating the facades of the attractions to look like Norway but that doesn't mean the movie or ride have a cultural link. There is nothing we can do about it now though. To me there is a clear connection between Ratatouille and France but not as clear with Frozen. With that said I'm a believer that IP isn't necessarily needed to make World Showcase better. Apparently I'm in the minority in that.

Being a Disneyland person originally, I think many DLR vets struggle with Epcot. From a DLR point of view, Epcot does not feel very "Disney". WDW vets who have been visiting for decades have apparently internalized that Epcot feels Disney to them. And as we all know, what Epcot is today has little more than the name in common with what Walt Disney himself was envisioning.

I have gone on a couple of Disney tours in Epcot and gained greater appreciation for Epcot. World Showcase alone does not make sense to me in a Disney park. Until I step back and realize how Walt Disney was so enamored by World Fairs. Like the 1964 one in New York. That gave me some context and made it easier to see how WS derives from Walt Disney himself.

Back to the idea of "what is Epcot/World Showcase supposed to be?", it does seem like Disney is taking the approach that they need push their IP into as many places as possible. I wonder if the IP pendulum has swung too far? Back before Iger Disney IP was dying with the impending loss of the Pixar connection and the loss of most of the creative movie making talent within Disney under Eisner. To his credit, Iger has recognized that Disney is at its best when they control IP and leverage it across as many endeavors as possible.

Those arguing in support of Maelstrom, heck, all I remember from that ride were the vikings - from a millenium ago (!) and hardly representative of Norway today or in any recent century. Changing that ride to FEA seems like a no-brainer to me. But maybe you are right that Disney should have gone to the extra expense and built a Frozen ride at MK instead.

What really bothers me is how they took an exceptionally well themed E-ticket ride at DLR (Tower of Terror) and turned it into Guardians of the Galaxy. Some rides Disney nails with a perfect theme, and IMO ToT is one of them. Further, even more so than at DHS, ToT at DLR was in DCA park's HollywoodLand where the Hollywood Tower Hotel was a perfect fit for the theme of the land and in truth the entire park. In other words, it fit better at DCA's land than at DHS's. Disney should have shelled out the bucks and built an entirely new GotG ride at DLR if they wanted to build it. How a GotG ride fits into the California theme of DCA is beyond me. Way, way, WAY further out there than the FEA fit at WC/Norway IMO. Again, it strikes me as Iger's great idea of leveraging Disney IP has now run amok. And the pendulum maybe swinging too far that way. They spent huge bucks ($1.2 billion) to fix the misguided DCA theming around California (in 2012) then closed ToT there in favor of GotG in 2017.

Overall Iger and the Disney team have been making many more good calls than bad calls. So we can be thankful for that.

Anyways, I continue to be intrigued by how long time WDW visitors view Epcot and what they think should (and should not) be there (be it WS or FW).

 

[HydroGuy]

If they went with real China they'd have to put in a major city with smog. That doesn't seem very appealing to me.

So then I ask, if one accepts the China pavilion's interpretation/representation of the nation of China, is Norway and FEA really all that off the mark? I think I know your answer based on how you have been presenting your thoughts here. But to me WS already is a bit of a romanticized version of real places.

To me a character standing outside a pavilion or a topiary outside a pavilion is not the same than a major meet and greet building and ride. Frozen took over the Norway pavilion. Snow White didn't take over Germany.

Ahhh, I thought I read folks arguing about the principle of the matter of Disney IP at WS. You here seem to be arguing more about the degree of Disney IP. Lesser is maybe OK?

 

[rteetz]

Being a Disneyland person originally, I think many DLR vets struggle with Epcot. From a DLR point of view, Epcot does not feel very "Disney". WDW vets who have been visiting for decades have apparently internalized that Epcot feels Disney to them. And as we all know, what Epcot is today has little more than the name in common with what Walt Disney himself was envisioning.

I have never been to DLR so I guess that could be the case but Epcot was something that Walt wanted and true Walt lovers would probably understand it. Now the Epcot that was built is not necessarily the Epcot was built.

I have gone a couple of Disney tours in Epcot and gained greater appreciation for Epcot. World Showcase alone does not make sense to me in a Disney park. Until I step back and realize how Walt Disney was so enamored by World Fairs. Like the 1964 one in New York. That gave me some context and made it easier to see how WS derives from Walt Disney himself.

You said it right there. Epcot represents a World's Fair which is something Walt loved.

Back to the idea of "what is Epcot/World Showcase supposed to be?", it does seem like Disney is taking the approach that they need push their IP into as many places as possible. I wonder if the IP pendulum has swung too far? Back before Iger Disney IP was dying withe impending loss of the Pixar connection and the loss of most of the creative movie making talent within Disney under Eisner. To his credit, Iger has recognized that Disney is at its best when they control IP and leverage it across as many endeavors as possible.

Imagineering can surely still build/create attractions that are without IP still today. Look at the non-IP rides. Things like Soarin, Figment, HM, Pirates, etc. Those are all their own IPs today. Figment is and can continue to be the character of Epcot. It doesn't have to be Frozen, Gaurdians, etc.

Those arguing in support of Maelstrom, heck, all I remember from that ride were the vikings - from a millenium ago (!) and hardly representative of Norway today or in any recent century. Changing that ride to FEA seems like a no-brainer to me. But maybe you are right that Disney should have gone to the extra expense and built a Frozen ride at MK instead.

Maelstrom had a refurb plan but execs wanted Frozen.

What really bothers me is how they took an exceptionally well themed E-ticket ride at DLR (Tower of Terror) and turned it into Guardians of the Galaxy. Some rides Disney nails with a perfect theme, and IMO ToT is one of them. Further, even more so than at DHS, ToT at DLR was in DCA park's HollywoodLand where the Hollywood Tower Hotel was a perfect fit for the theme of the land and in truth the entire park. In other words, it fit better at DCA's land than at DHS's. Disney should have shelled out the bucks and built an entirely new GotG ride at DLR if they wanted to build it. How a GotG ride fits into the California theme of DCA is beyond me. Way, way, WAY further out there than the FEA fit at WC/Norway IMO. Again, it strikes me as Iger's great idea of leveraging Disney IP has now run amok. And the pendulum maybe swinging too far that way. They spent huge bucks ($1.2 billion) to fix the misguided DCA theming around California (in 2012) then closed ToT there in favor of GotG in 2017.

I definitely agree with you. Execs pushed this Guardians tower thing hard. To me it looks ugly but people are loving it. DCA of course is getting a major marvel land and ToT is just the start. Execs are too afraid to have original ideas rather than shoehorning popular IP into the parks.

Overall Iger and the Disney team have been making many more good calls than bad calls. So we can be thankful for that.

To each there own. I have liked some things Iger has done but he hasn't been particularly the best for the WDW parks. He sat and did nothing to them from 2005-2011.

 

[toonaspie]

When I walk around Epcot, I see Snow White M&Gs at Germany. And a Snow White topiary during Flower & Garden. Did anything in that movie say it was Germany? I do not remember it. They certainly did not speak with German accents. To me it was a placeless fairy tale, even more so than Arendelle which intentionally is based on Norway.

It is widely assumed that Snow White is set in Germany since it is the original source of the fairy tale and throughout the film you do see some German-influenced designs (particularly in the Dwarfs cottage).

Again, I am not looking for a big argument. In fact, I struggle a bit with Epcot and how it all fits within Disney more so than any of the other parks. So I would appreciate any insight on Epcot from folks like you here.

That's because Epcot was not originally designed/meant to be a Disney park or have anything Disney in it at all. As a result, once it was discovered that Epcot wasn't being well received and one of the biggest complaints was the lack of Disney, that's when Epcot had to find ways to get more Disney in there. Mickey Mouse had nothing to do with Epcot until a year or two after it opened as Figment was meant to be the park's signature icon.

 

[rteetz]

So then I ask, if one accepts the China pavilion's interpretation/representation of the nation of China, is Norway and FEA really all that off the mark? I think I know your answer based on how you have been presenting your thoughts here. But to me WS already is a bit of a romanticized version of real places.

Ahhh, I thought I read folks arguing about the principle of the matter of Disney IP at WS. You here seem to be arguing more about the degree of Disney IP. Lesser is maybe OK?

That China was built in 1982. If it wasn't accepted I think it would've changed by now. I am confused as to why you find fault to the way the China pavilion looks. I also don't really see how the look of a historical China compares to Frozen in Norway. The World Showcase pavilions are not supposed to show you everything about a country but give you a peek at some things where then maybe you would then travel to them.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Fantastic news.


But I thought people didn't want IP in World showcase.... lol

As always with the obtuse "absolute" arguments when the bucket brigade shows up...this is a misleading/incorrect statement.

It depends on what and how it's used. Ratatouille was at least set in paris...and it's about food, so that could lead to some interesting, tangible tie ins...

Frozen in norway was/is/will be STOOOPID...it is what it is.

 

[HydroGuy]

To each there own. I have liked some things Iger has done but he hasn't been particularly the best for the WDW parks. He sat and did nothing to them from 2005-2011.

To be precise he took over in 2006 not 2005.

I am trying to see things from your perspective about WDW so bear with me.

In many ways Iger inherited a mess from Eisner. His priorities (rightly so to me) were salvaging the relationship with Pixar. That brought many changes including Steve Jobs to be on the board of directors and John Lasseter as Chief Creative Officer (if memory serves). Not sure the year but they also started the process of Shanghai DL which for the company in general was brilliant but maybe not for DLR and WDW.

He also took on the StarWars (2008 ?) and Marvel (2009 ?) acquisitions, both, again brilliant moves for Disney. When you look at the last few years, Disney has been killing it at the box office with blockbuster after blockbuster like a machine.

As for the parks, Iger inherited a mess at DCA. DL itself was doing fine but (still) has had no major new rides since Indiana Jones in 1995. Yes really. They have made major upgrades to many rides (including a 2.5 year refurb on Space Mtn in 2003-2005), plus Star Tours 2. The closest thing to a major new ride is Buzz Lightyear Astro Blasters in 2005. This is till the case today. No major new rides for 22 years. Yes, 22. SWL will change that in 2019. But DCA was far and away Disney's weakest American park and frankly an embarrassment to Disney. It needed attention much more than WDW did.

In 2008 they opened Toy Story (Midway) Mania at both DHS and DCA. It was in late 2007 or early 2008 I believe when they announced the $1 billion investment into DCA (which ended up costing 1.2 billion reportedly) to basically retheme the entire park because of poor theming and weak attendance. That did not help WDW (not directly anyways) as Disney was focused on their grand new project CarsLand. John Lasseter and his team conceived the whole thing and to Iger's credit he gave the green light. There was a lot of work done on DCA (and a major new show World of Color in 2010) and this all came to fruition 5 years ago this month with the opening of CarsLand and the Buena Vista Street entrance in 2012.

During this time WDW got Expedition Everest (which would have been courtesy of Eisner not Iger as it opened in 2006). MK New FantasyLand got the green light in 2011 I believe. And Pandora in 2013 (if I recall).

But one of the good things for WDW that came from the whole CarsLand thing was Disney saw very clearly the power of their IP to create a new land and how it influenced opinion, attendance and revenue. My guess is this played a heavy role in influencing the decisions on Pandora at AK, Star Wars Land at DHS (and DL) and Toy Story Land at DHS. So WDW did benefit from all this and will see the full impact in 2019 after TSL and SWL have both opened.

Along the way Disney made the famous (or infamous) decision to pursue MDE at WDW which as you know is rumored to have cost upwards of $2 billion. That obviously drew resources away from the things Disney fans want like rides and shows. Now that MDE is, for better or worse, behind us (as far as investment goes) Disney seems to be unleashing massive investments in new rides and shows at WDW.

Up until Pandora opened I would have still given DLR the edge on rides over WDW. Now with Pandora, WDW has IMO pulled even if not passed DLR. IMO WDW is still behind DLR on shows even with the addition of the excellent HEA and the lower key ROL. But I suspect this will change too as Disney continues to invest in WDW like they have in recent years. They just have so many directions they can go at WDW both geographically and with the variety of parks and themes there. It would be easy to put in GotG at WDW somewhere and make it fit. Probably DHS would be best. But at DLR they are more limited.

In hindsight I see your point that WDW did not see much in Iger's first 5 years (until 2011 by which I think you mean New FantasyLand). But then neither did DLR. They got TSMM like WDW did, plus the WOC show (which was huge BTW). DLR too did not see much from Iger directly until CarsLand and Buena Vista Street opened in 2012 (even though he made the call to go forward in 2007/2008). I guess we can say it took a little time for Iger to work out his plans into the parks at both WDW and DLR. And he also was not as focused on WDW as he was busy fixing other problems. As I said, those fixes did (or will) eventually benefit WDW. It just took awhile. To me it looks like Disney has turned huge focus onto WDW now to integrate all of the successful things they pursued in the first few years.

 

[HydroGuy]

That China was built in 1982. If it wasn't accepted I think it would've changed by now. I am confused as to why you find fault to the way the China pavilion looks. I also don't really see how the look of a historical China compares to Frozen in Norway. The World Showcase pavilions are not supposed to show you everything about a country but give you a peek at some things where then maybe you would then travel to them.

I don't find fault with China. I just see a bit of a selective (and maybe romanticized) theme among some of the World Showcase pavilions. I am fine with that. I bring it up to say that to me (kind of a WDW outsider) I do not see a whole lot of difference between how China is portrayed and Norway (including FEA). You and others who agree with you here (there seem to be a lot of people who agree with you) are seeing something I am not and bothered by something that does not bother me. I am just trying to understand where that comes from.

 

[rteetz]

To be precise he took over in 2006 not 2005.

I'll give you that however Iger was COO in 2005 so he had plenty of power.

In many ways Iger inherited a mess from Eisner. His priorities (rightly so to me) were salvaging the relationship with Pixar. That brought many changes including Steve Jobs to be board of directors and John Lasseter as Chief Creative Officer (if memory serves). Not sure the year but they also started the process of Shanghai DL which for the company in general was brilliant but maybe not for DLR and WDW.

I can agree with this. I am an Eisner fan but Eisner did have a rough go around his last few years. To me Eisner was a theme park fan. Iger doesn't seem to be as much of one. Iger was one the one that pushed Shanghai. Eisner had Hong Kong which is a great park but underbuilt because of budget cuts.

He also took on the StarWars (2008 ?) and Marvel (2009 ?) acquisitions, both, again brilliant moves for Disney. When you look at the last few years, Disney has been killing it when at the box office with blockbuster after blockbuster like a machine.

I do like both acquisitions. I agree Disney has been great at the box office but even without those two Disney has really always done well in many ways because of the name. Look at the Disney renaissance under Eisner and Katzenburg for example. Have you read Disney War? Highly recommended.

As for the parks, Iger inherited a mess at DCA. DL itself was doing fine but (still) has had no major new rides since Indiana Jones in 1995. Yes really. They have made major upgrades to many rides (including a 2.5 year refurb on Space Mtn in 2003-2005), plus Star Tours 2. The closest thing to a major new ride is Buzz Lightyear Astro Blasters in 2005. This is till the case today. No major new rides for 22 years. Yes, 22. SWL will change that in 2019. But DCA was far and away Disney's weakest American park and frankly an embarrassment to Disney. It needed attention much more than WDW did.

Yes DCA was a mess. DL still won't see a major addition until Star Wars in 2019. That is 24 years! I believe DL should have still gotten some attention maybe. Disney needs to realize that their cable networks aren't going to be the major money maker forever. ESPN is dropping by the day. Theme parks are the next biggest revenue maker.

In 2008 they opened Toy Story (Midway) Mania at both DHS and DCA. It was in late 2007 or early 2008 I believe when they announced the $1 billion investment into DCA (which ended up costing 1.2 billion reportedly) to basically retheme the entire park because of poor theming and weak attendance. That did not help WDW (not directly anyways) as Disney was focused on their grand new project CarsLand. John Lasseter and his team conceived the whole thing and to Iger's credit he gave the green light. There was a lot of work done on DCA (and a major new show World of Color in 2010) and this all came to fruition 5 years ago this month with the opening of CarsLand and the Buena Vista Street entrance in 2012.

It depends who you talk to but some don't consider TSMM an E-ticket. In terms of WDW, it was one ride in a park that still needs more after SWL and TSL open. I do need to get out to DLR and see cars land though.

During this time WDW got Expedition Everest (which would have been courtesy of Eisner not Iger as it opened in 2006). MK New FantasyLand got the green light in 2011 I believe. And Pandora in 2013 (if I recall).

The Pandora deal was made in 2011 but nobody knew what was going to come of it at that point. 2013 was when we found out it would be a land at AK.

But one of the good things for WDW that came from the whole CarsLand thing was Disney saw very clearly the power of their IP to create a new land and how it influenced opinion, attendance and revenue. My guess is this played a heavy role in influencing the decisions on Pandora at AK, Star Wars Land at DHS (and DL) and Toy Story Land at DHS. So WDW did benefit from all this and will see the full impact in 2019 after TSL and SWL have both opened.

I agree to an extent. I am incredibly excited for the new lands coming. I am a huge fan of Pandora now. The point I want to make here is Disney doesn't need to have new lands all the time. Sometimes a redo of a ride, refurb, or additional ride goes a long way. Look at DHS for example. In WDW, it was always said look at the blessing of size. WDW never seems to use that though except for NFL. Everything else replaces existing things.

Up until Pandora opened I would have still given DLR the edge on rides over WDW. Now with Pandora, WDW has IMO pulled even if not passed DLR. IMO WDW is still behind DLR on shows even with the addition of the excellent HEA and the lower key ROL. But I suspect this will change too as Disney continues to invest in WDW like they have in recent years. They just have so many directions they can go at WDW both geographically and with the variety of parks and themes there. It would be easy to put in GotG at WDW somewhere and make it fit. Probably DHS would be best. But at DLR they are more limited.

WDW should be considered the premiere Disney destination and Disney should treat it as such. It the the most visited and brings in the most money of the Disney resorts. Unfortunately Disney doesn't do that. DHS would be best for Guardians but it doesn't seem that is going to happen.

 

[rteetz]

I don't find fault with China. I just see a bit of a selective (and maybe romanticized) theme among some of the World Showcase pavilions. I am fine with that. I bring it up to say that to me (kind of a WDW outsider) I do not see a whole lot of difference between how China is portrayed and Norway (including FEA). You and others who agree with you here (there seem to be a lot of people who agree with you) are seeing something I am not and bothered by something that does not bother me. I am just trying to understand where that comes from.

Understandable. To me I don't think China and Frozen are comparable. Frozen deserved so much more than what it got.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I don't find fault with China. I just see a bit of a selective (and maybe romanticized) theme among some of the World Showcase pavilions. I am fine with that. I bring it up to say that to me (kind of a WDW outsider) I do not see a whole lot of difference between how China is portrayed and Norway (including FEA). You and others who agree with you here (there seem to be a lot of people who agree with you) are seeing something I am not and bothered by something that does not bother me. I am just trying to understand where that comes from.

You see a representation of the temple of heaven and the paifang gate to be on par with gutting the adjacent pavilion and putting all fictitious elements of a fairy tale that is pretty devoid of gravitas/depth?

Can't quite jump that bridge...

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Officially...Eisner ceeded day to day control to iger on march 15,2005...and remained for figurehead/transitional duty. CEOs don't have "lame duck" periods of huge companies in respect to power and control.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm having a hard time following how the situation under iger in California has anything to do with wdw.

California has gotten more love under iger...and wdw has seen not only a very stagnant overall picture...but massive price increases to go with it.

Things are being done...now...which will help with catch up.

But let's not bs this...the aggressive approach Comcast has taken in Florida is a major component of that...they sat for as long as they could.

If iger inherited "a mess" in wdw...then he was ok with it for about 10 years...closures have kept pace with any additions and we are still a couple years from a net gain.

It's possible you can't form a Wdw opinion by comparing it to Disneyland...at least not a very accurate one.

 

[rteetz]

I'm having a hard time following how the situation under iger in California has anything to do with wdw.

California has gotten more love under iger...and wdw has seen not only a very stagnant overall picture...but massive price increases to go with it.

Things are being done...now...which will help with catch up.

But let's not bs this...the aggressive approach Comcast has taken in Florida is a major component of that...they sat for as long as they could.

If iger inherited "a mess" in wdw...then he was ok with it for about 10 years...closures have kept pace with any additions and we are still a couple years from a net gain.

It's possible you can't form a Wdw opinion by comparing it to Disneyland...at least not a very accurate one.

I don't think Iger inherited a WDW mess but he surely inherited a DCA mess.

 

[umichigan10]

I don't think Iger inherited a WDW mess but he surely inherited a DCA mess.

In Florida he inherited two parks in need of love (Hollywood and animal kingdom) and proceeded to sit on them until now

 

[HydroGuy]

I'm having a hard time following how the situation under iger in California has anything to do with wdw.

California has gotten more love under iger...and wdw has seen not only a very stagnant overall picture...but massive price increases to go with it.

Things are being done...now...which will help with catch up.

But let's not bs this...the aggressive approach Comcast has taken in Florida is a major component of that...they sat for as long as they could.

If iger inherited "a mess" in wdw...then he was ok with it for about 10 years...closures have kept pace with any additions and we are still a couple years from a net gain.

It's possible you can't form a Wdw opinion by comparing it to Disneyland...at least not a very accurate one.

I won't go through it all again in detail like I did before, but in summary from a company point of view DCA needed more attention than WDW. So it got it. It was an embarrassment and the WDW parks were not. That attention resulted in (among other things) CarsLand, which I argue has shaped Disney's willingness to pour on the resources for Pandora, Toy StoryLand and Star Wars Land at WDW.

My opinion of WDW of DLR is kind of from an "outsider" point of view (which I said earlier). You all can be the judge, but since I have seen more close up than many of you (it sounds) what has been happening at DLR both pre and post-Iger, I think I can shed some light on some of the factors impacting WDW now.

Also, I know MDE is still controversial in some (many?) folks' minds, but that $2 billion investment outstripped everything Disney spent on DLR over the same period of years. WDW did get a lot of attention from an investment point of view. It was just in IT infrastructure and not rides and shows.

 

[HydroGuy]

In Florida he inherited two parks in need of love (Hollywood and animal kingdom) and proceeded to sit on them until now

From an attendance point of view, and general acceptance by the average Disney fan, DCA was rejected by Disney fans while DHS and AK were just "half-day" parks in some people's minds and still, overall, embraced.

Heck, some might argue (not me ) that WDW fans are spoiled. They got not one, not two, not three, but four parks in a 27 year period (1971-1998). That is tons of attention. As mentioned earlier, DLR has gotten one new park (which was DOA and needed a complete overhaul) and DL has not gotten a major new ride in 22 years. Yes, the WDW effort was pre-Iger. But when he took over, other parts of Disney were in deeper trouble. It affected the brand. I do not think they forgot about WDW, but they focused on other things for WDW (like MDE). For that first 6 years (2006-2012) neither resort saw much actually installed. Starting in 2012 things came to fruition.

Anyways, it is surprising (and instructive) for me to hear some of you folks down on Iger. I had no idea folks felt that way. So I have learned something.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I don't think Iger inherited a WDW mess but he surely inherited a DCA mess.

That's not in dispute...but it can't be rolled into wdw on the same premise.

I often (always) say that 1998-2001 was the peak of wdw...the opening of the fourth park, the west side, boardwalk, 3 water parks, and the millennium event - which was the best event and they really haven't tried since.

So I don't know how it was a "mess"...there were problems with build out at both AK and mgm...and Epcot was in a transition that still hasn't shook out...

But it wasn't a "mess"...that's incorrect revisionist take.

 

[HydroGuy]

It depends who you talk to but some don't consider TSMM an E-ticket. In terms of WDW, it was one ride in a park that still needs more after SWL and TSL open. I do need to get out to DLR and see cars land though.

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply TSMM is an E-ticket. I agree that it is a solid D-Ticket even though it did hold the mantle of most popular ride at WDW for several years.

I was just saying that TSMM was the only ride of significance built at either WDW or DLR during those years.