Permit Filed: France Pavilion at Epcot

[lockedoutlogic]

From an attendance point of view, and general acceptance by the average Disney fan, DCA was rejected by Disney fans while DHS and AK were just "half-day" parks in some people's minds and still, overall, embraced.

Heck, some might argue (not me ) that WDW fans are spoiled. They got not one, not two, not three, but four parks in a 27 year period (1971-1998). That is tons of attention. As mentioned earlier, DLR has gotten one new park (which was DOA and needed a complete overhaul) and DL has not gotten a major new ride in 22 years. Yes, the WDW effort was pre-Iger. But when he took over, other parts of Disney were in deeper trouble. It affected the brand. I do not think they forgot about WDW, but they focused on other things for WDW (like MDE). For that first 6 years (2006-2012) neither resort saw much actually installed. Starting in 2012 things came to fruition.

Anyways, it is surprising (and instructive) for me to hear some of you folks down on Iger. I had no idea folks felt that way. So I have learned something.

They got 4 parks because there was much more money to be made on the east coast...considering where it was In relation to the megalopolis and Western Europe...

And again...it was wide open land...not slammed next to the 5.

Half of the us population...including most of the old money...is within a 2 hour flight of Orlando.

And Eisner did like the east coast customer...there was no doubt.

But the rest is just simple money concerns.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply TSMM is an E-ticket. I agree that it is a solid D-Ticket even though it did hold the mantle of most popular ride at WDW for several years.

I was just saying that TSMM was the only ride of significance built at either WDW or DLR during those years.

The fact that midway mania was the most popular - mobbed - for several years...and mine train has been since is an indictedment of how they've managed the park...

These things are not correct.

 

[HydroGuy]

I can agree with this. I am an Eisner fan but Eisner did have a rough go around his last few years. To me Eisner was a theme park fan. Iger doesn't seem to be as much of one. Iger was one the one that pushed Shanghai. Eisner had Hong Kong which is a great park but underbuilt because of budget cuts.

I do like both acquisitions. I agree Disney has been great at the box office but even without those two Disney has really always done well in many ways because of the name. Look at the Disney renaissance under Eisner and Katzenburg for example. Have you read Disney War? Highly recommended.

I totally agree about the renaissance part. Some will argue this was heavily influenced by old hand Frank Wells. When he died (in 1996 I believe) Disney animation lost its way and we got a bunch of duds like Hunchback and Hercules. Creative people within Disney left the company in frustration with how Eisner manged things. By the time 2005 rolled around, Disney had lost the ability to create animated movies of any quality. They were 100% dependent on Pixar by then, and the agreement with Pixar was expiring (in 2006 ?). Sure Disney could still trot out Woody and Buzz and Nemo, but the pipeline was ready to be shutoff. Steve Jobs would no longer talk to Eisner about Pixar he was so annoyed by him.

I see Eisner as having been brilliant in his first decade (up to 1995, around when Lion King came out in 1994) and a near failure in his second decade with the construction of DCA and the ridiculously terrible Walt Disney Studios park in Paris.

To my view, Iger rode in a white horse and saved the company. He acquired more IP (especially Pixar), got John Lasseter involved, got lots of good advice from Disney's new largest shareholder (Steve Jobs) about "brand deposits" and "brand withdrawals".

Again, I am really intrigued some of you folks' view on Iger and Eisner.

 

[umichigan10]

They got 4 parks because there was much more money to be made on the east coast...considering where it was In relation to the megalopolis and Western Europe...

And again...it was wide open land...not slammed next to the 5.

Half of the us population...including most of the old money...is within a 2 hour flight of Orlando.

And Eisner did like the east coast customer...there was no doubt.

But the rest is just simple money concerns.

Also Disneyland has as many rides in two parks as wdw does in 4. That doesn't count things like the paths/exhibits in animal kingdom I don't think but irregardless it's closer than you'd think it would or should be

 

[umichigan10]

I totally agree about the renaissance part. Some will argue this was heavily influenced by old hand Frank Wells. When he died (in 1996 I believe) Disney animation lost its way and we got a bunch of duds like Hunchback and Hercules. Creative people within Disney left the company in frustration with how Eisner manged things. By the time 2005 rolled around, Disney had lost the ability to create animated movies of any quality. They were 100% dependent on Pixar by then, and the agreement with Pixar was expiring (in 2006 ?). Sure Disney could still trot out Woody and Buzz and Nemo, but the pipeline was ready to be shutoff. Steve Jobs would no longer talk to Eisner about Pixar he was so annoyed by him.

I see Eisner as having been brilliant in his first decade (up to 1995, around when Lion King came out in 1994) and a near failure in his second decade with the construction of DCA and the ridiculously terrible Walt Disney Studios park in Paris.

To my view, Iger rode in a white horse and saved the company. He acquired more IP (especially Pixar), got John Lasseter involved, got lots of good advice from Disney's new largest shareholder (Steve Jobs) about "brand deposits" and "brand withdrawals".

Again, I am really intrigued some of you folks' view on Iger and Eisner.

I would agree pretty much with your view. Eisner was great at propping up the parks which were heavily neglected, and helping the studios create better movies. But he absolutely fell apart when wells died (also around the time the Paris park opened with a lot of issues).

Iger has done well in protecting the interests of the company from a Wall Street perspective. And acquiring more properties will help the company for decades to come. But he's absolutely set back the parks in Florida in particular back a ton and let universal into the game so to speak. He needs to leave, and he's really starting to tick me the you know what off because he keeps trying to hold on

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I would agree pretty much with your view. Eisner was great at propping up the parks which were heavily neglected, and helping the studios create better movies. But he absolutely fell apart when wells died (also around the time the Paris park opened with a lot of issues).

Iger has done well in protecting the interests of the company from a Wall Street perspective. And acquiring more properties will help the company for decades to come. But he's absolutely set back the parks in Florida in particular back a ton and let universal into the game so to speak. He needs to leave, and he's really starting to tick me the you know what off because he keeps trying to hold on

What? You're not buying the 2018 retirement date?

With NOBODY on earth apparently interested in taking a $100 mil a year paycheck to run a company that sells 50% of its product on reputation?

Cause boy...hard to find a CEO, huh?

 

[rteetz]

I totally agree about the renaissance part. Some will argue this was heavily influenced by old hand Frank Wells. When he died (in 1996 I believe) Disney animation lost its way and we got a bunch of duds like Hunchback and Hercules. Creative people within Disney left the company in frustration with how Eisner manged things. By the time 2005 rolled around, Disney had lost the ability to create animated movies of any quality. They were 100% dependent on Pixar by then, and the agreement with Pixar was expiring (in 2006 ?). Sure Disney could still trot out Woody and Buzz and Nemo, but the pipeline was ready to be shutoff. Steve Jobs would no longer talk to Eisner about Pixar he was so annoyed by him.

I see Eisner as having been brilliant in his first decade (up to 1995, around when Lion King came out in 1994) and a near failure in his second decade with the construction of DCA and the ridiculously terrible Walt Disney Studios park in Paris.

To my view, Iger rode in a white horse and saved the company. He acquired more IP (especially Pixar), got John Lasseter involved, got lots of good advice from Disney's new largest shareholder (Steve Jobs) about "brand deposits" and "brand withdrawals".

Again, I am really intrigued some of you folks' view on Iger and Eisner.

Hercules and Hunchback are duds? I think many would disagree with you there. Others like Treasure Island or whatever it is, is a dud.

Iger has been great for the film part but not as much on the WDW side.

Eisner loved the theme parks.

 

[umichigan10]

What? You're not buying the 2018 retirement date?

With NOBODY on earth apparently interested in taking a $100 mil a year paycheck to run a company that sells 50% of its product on reputation?

Cause boy...hard to find a CEO, huh?

If they're REALLY desperate I can take the reins. We all have to bear our burdens right?

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Hercules and Hunchback are duds? I think many would disagree with you there. Others like Treasure Island or whatever it is, is a dud.

Iger has been great for the film part but not as much on the WDW side.

Eisner loved the theme parks.

Correct...Eisner made bad late park decisions...I think he grew impatient for the process and the infrastructure investments required. I also think the failure in the Virginia project and euro difficulties really changed the outlook for that management group on parks.

There were some good movies made...Mulan, Tarzan, hercules, and hunchback...but Eisner definitely lead the movies away from where they needed to be. That's on him.

Iger has been all about movies...but parks has been mixed bag and of all things - the collapse of espn is a major bad mark on the whole outfit. He's a tv, suit...how do you run that gravy train into the ground? That's bad.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

If they're REALLY desperate I can take the reins. We all have to bear our burdens right?

Give me 5 good men and a healthy budget and the Parks are ready to roll...get off the tracks, cause the train is coming through

First order of business: a 10 year moratorium on simulators and a rediscovery of gravity, velocity, and their wonderful uses...

 

[George4]

What? You're not buying the 2018 retirement date?

With NOBODY on earth apparently interested in taking a $100 mil a year paycheck to run a company that sells 50% of its product on reputation?

Cause boy...hard to find a CEO, huh?

I'd be happy to be CEO, but there might be changes then. I don't even need $100 million a year.

 

[George4]

Give me 5 good men and a healthy budget and the Parks are ready to roll...get off the tracks, cause the train is coming through

First order of business: a 10 year moratorium on simulators and a rediscovery of gravity, velocity, and their wonderful uses...

Can I say like on the second comment about 100 times over? So sick of fake thrills. Pandora is amazing, but it will wear very quickly as has every other simulator ride.

 

[HydroGuy]

Hercules and Hunchback are duds? I think many would disagree with you there. Others like Treasure Island or whatever it is, is a dud.

Iger has been great for the film part but not as much on the WDW side.

Eisner loved the theme parks.

The lifeblood of the parks are the characters and the tie in's to stories. Today those stories come from movies. Disney lost the ability to make them due to how Eisner failed to appreciate how creative people operate and tried to run them like a conventional business. Frank Wells managed this when he was around. Without Wells Eisner could not do it on his own.

Someone else mentioned Tarzan and I forgot about that one which was especially good and in 1999 during what I called Eisner's terrible decade. But Hercules and Hunchback? Where are they today? Do kids clamor for a meet & greet or their merchandise? Is anyone in their right mind interested in a ride or show at the parks based on those movies? Not even close.

Eisner killed the pipeline. Not on purpose but by his inability to manage it without Wells. Maybe Eisner was friendly to the parks and especially WDW (I have no reason to doubt that) but the parks without new lifeblood were in for a long, slow death no matter how much money is on the east coast. Iger had to rebuild the pipeline. As I understand it, the first day on the job he called Steve Jobs and went to meet him immediately. He flew to meet Jobs. Soon thereafter the Pixar acquisition happened. Iger did not have much to use to rebuild the parks with all the stories dried up. He got those going again. Big time. He understands synergy. He understands the need for new stories.

I still remain intrigued by your and the others' point of view here. I came to the WDW game too late to understand what had gone on before. But I think I have a decent handle on it today. I also have been fortunate to visit Paris and Tokyo. I had a chance to visit the new Shanghai here in a month or two but want to take DW and we could not make it work. Maybe next year!

If any of you folks get a chance and have not yet done it, visit DLR and the bi-annual D23 Expo. To me the Expo gives a unique big picture view and it is just very kewl to be around so many Disney fans and so much of the energy of what is in the pipeline. And Disneyland? DL the park is the best theme park in the world IMHO.

You folks here in this thread are a tough group but I appreciate your opinions!

 

[rteetz]

The lifeblood of the parks are the characters and the tie in's to stories. Today those stories come from movies. Disney lost the ability to make them due to how Eisner failed to appreciate how creative people operate and tried to run them like a conventional business. Frank Wells managed this when he was around. Without Wells Eisner could not do it on his own.

Have you read Disney Wars? Highly suggest it as it gives an awesome insight into Eisner and how Disney operated during that time.

Someone else mentioned Tarzan and I forgot about that one which was especially good and in 1999 during what I called Eisner's terrible decade. But Hercules and Hunchback? Where are they today? Do kids clamor for a meet & greet or their merchandise? Is anyone in their right mind interested in a ride or show at the parks based on those movies? Not even close.

Personally I think Hercules is a great film. Hunchback its been a while. Both are in the new Happily Ever After fireworks show. Hunchback has a large role. Hunchback used to have a show in DHS.

Iger did not have much to use to rebuild the parks with all the stories dried up. He got those going again. Big time. He understands synergy. He understands the need for new stories.

Iger had a whole Disney animation company he could have used or maybe just maybe build something original. You don't need IP for a good attraction.

I also have been fortunate to visit Paris and Tokyo.

Since you have been to Tokyo I assume you know how good theme parks are run. OLC holds their parks to a standard even higher than Disney themselves in some areas. Paris is a work in progress. Now fully owned by Disney its seeing the love it deserves.

 

[HydroGuy]

Have you read Disney Wars? Highly suggest it as it gives an awesome insight into Eisner and how Disney operated during that time.

I have not but it sounds like I should.

Personally I think Hercules is a great film. Hunchback its been a while. Both are in the new Happily Ever After fireworks show. Hunchback has a large role. Hunchback used to have a show in DHS.

I noticed that! I was shocked actually.

Iger had a whole Disney animation company he could have used or maybe just maybe build something original. You don't need IP for a good attraction.

Yah, but in that final decade he could not manage even that. They gutted DL's Tomorrowland in 1998 and it still has not completely recovered. They built a weak DCA in 2001 (with one shining good ride in Soarin). They built a terrible Walt Disney Studios in 2002. One good decision in there was to bring ToT to DCA in 2004.

Tokyo Disney Seas did open in 2001 and that park rocks. I am afraid I do not understand enough how OLC works with Disney to know how much credit Eisner gets for that success. I suspect you may know. TDS was well done with many rides that are not strictly Disney IP. Oh yah, and AK in 1998. Which was fairly weak at first but not like DCA. And not much Disney IP either.

Anyways, it seems to be a mixed bag at best how well Eisner contributed to new attractions either Disney IP or otherwise.

Since you have been to Tokyo I assume you know how good theme parks are run. OLC holds their parks to a standard even higher than Disney themselves in some areas. Paris is a work in progress. Now fully owned by Disney its seeing the love it deserves.

Yes TDR is amazing. DLRP needs help but has some good things going for it.

 

[rteetz]

Tokyo Disney Seas did open in 2001 and that park rocks. I am afraid I do not understand enough how OLC works with Disney to know how much credit Eisner gets for that success. I suspect you may know. TDS was well done with many rides that are not strictly Disney IP. Oh yah, and AK in 1998. Which was fairly weak at first but not like DCA. And not much Disney IP either.

The OLC deal started before Eisner. The OLC controls everything in both parks and pays for licensing and design from Disney.

 

[Planogirl]

Maybe they have big plans for France. They could turn Chefs de France into a princess and rat meal and the shops into princess souvenir shops and maybe the theater into a Beauty and the Beast show. It has after all been done before. Then they could add the rat attraction.

This might be just the beginning. I won't go into which leader has been worse for the parks. I'll just say that the current guy doesn't seem to get it.

 

[umichigan10]

Maybe they have big plans for France. They could turn Chefs de France into a princess and rat meal and the shops into princess souvenir shops and maybe the theater into a Beauty and the Beast show. It has after all been done before. Then they could add the rat attraction.

This might be just the beginning. I won't go into which leader has been worse for the parks. I'll just say that the current guy doesn't seem to get it.

The current guy is basically where Eisner was at the end of his tenure and doesn't know/care what he's doing

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Maybe they have big plans for France. They could turn Chefs de France into a princess and rat meal and the shops into princess souvenir shops and maybe the theater into a Beauty and the Beast show. It has after all been done before. Then they could add the rat attraction.

This might be just the beginning. I won't go into which leader has been worse for the parks. I'll just say that the current guy doesn't seem to get it.

Wow...and people call ME a bummer around here?

...I love Epcot, and I love the French pavilion...so I'm hoping for the best.

Honestly...I hope no major changes are made to either the street shops or impressions (maybe a refresh)...that's what I'm hoping for...

...honestly...they owe me after putting AAs into a clunky boat ride and "elsa's greatest hits"...that was a one and done.

I know people hammer the film...but I have to say: what's wrong with you? It's such a piece of nostalgia to me. Maybe not even French nostalgia...but Epcot nostalgia...I dunno...that's the kinda thing that will be appreciated after it's gone when people whine for cartoons and princesses. Doesn't take much to break things.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

The current guy is basically where Eisner was at the end of his tenure and doesn't know/care what he's doing

I have to agree...having worked under late Eisner...I see a ton of similarities.

The difference now is there's cranes everywhere...which is an "improvement" on one side...

But it's also a jumbled exercise in catching up without a coherent property wide strategy...

After the first proxy move against Eisner (2003)...he threw a podium up in DAK and gave joe rohde $300 mil to blow on that rollercoaster with the strobe lights...

"Hey, we greenlit that big rollercoaster thing...what do you want?" Was his paraphrased comment shortly thereafter...

I see the same kinda "plans" now. The reactionary move in AK...Star Wars "ahead of schedule" based on their subtle whining during the announcement...and moves in Epcot that seem to not really address the problems that they need a master plan approach...systematic and thematically correct.