Permit Filed: "Project S" at Epcot

[rteetz]

Ok...I think "project S" stands for "stanley"...as in cups...as in multiple

(You had that one coming )

Not really a hockey fan so again let's stay on topic please.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Not really a hockey fan so again let's stay on topic please.

You didn't have to tell me that...
...because you bothered to remove the random sports quips that are just a part of normal banter...

The "thread within a thread" had already ended...so we can now discuss how Norway "isn't really a country" somemore and how that makes the FEA special release pins on the lanyard "less magical"

 

[lockedoutlogic]

As someone who is half Norwegian and has been to the REAL Norway (Have you?), I'm a little put off by your remarks. First, Norway is a country, it is not made up of countries. Also, the Norway Pavilion is a perfect representation of Old Norway. You have Bergen (west coast), a Stave Church (found all over the country), and Akershus Fortress, which is in Olso on the Eastern side of the country. I always love visiting the pavilion because I recognize the surroundings it and it feels real.

I agree with the others that adding Frozen to the pavilion does nothing to support the idea of Norway. I can also add I was very upset when the removed Maelstrom. I like the Frozen movie, and would probably like FEA, but I don't feel it belongs in EPCOT. It'd be like putting Aladdin's Flying Carpets in Morocco.... doesn't quite jive with the idea of learning about a REAL country.

I have to say...I enjoyed this. And not - as I'm always pigeonholed as - because it's "anti-management"...but because it uses actual real facts/experiences and perceptions from a different point of view. So thank you.

The standard criticism of Epcot that has been used to justify the IP dump is that "it's not real anyway"...as in its fanaticized representations. That is of course true...Deutsch don't wear lederhosen everyday and Canadians go out in things other than flannel. But what showcase does do is create a familiarity/emotional tie to places by being lighthearted and still managing to give hint of real culture and education. Remember it was built very much during the Cold War.

For those of us that saw that in the pre digital/internet era...it was great experience that has lasted and is why it will always be my favorite park.

But sadly...your very valid critique is falling on some deaf ears here...because many can't mentally handle the idea that disney has or will make big mistakes in their parks...because that tarnishes their "happy place" and any valid criticism is too big of a mental hurdle to jump. All warm and fuzzies...no thought in this case.

No way in hell a valid argument can be made that Norway didn't fit the theme/intent of Epcot as constructed or that frozen "sorta fits"...it doesn't.

They could have stuck with the meet and greet just like the other pavilions and not permenantly altered the overall concept/theme. But it was quick and brash and not meant for the longterm. That's your current management.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Anna and elsa made their way to norway due to closing of malestrom which was due to norway not supporting the country, financially, any more (2002 was the last time that the ACTUAL country of Norway donated money). The idea of frozen is like nails on a chalk board because the idea of learning about norway (the spirit of Norway *in my best viking accent*). is gone and therefore it defeats the purpose that was intended for Epcot.

The Norway pavilion was "supported" by a consortium of public and private business interests (tourism and multinational corporations) from Scandinavian countries that actually collapsed before the Pavilion even opened in 1988...so the sponsorship model was flawed there.

So disney assumed more than "they were comfortable with" in that location.

You do point out that the sponsorship model Epcot was partially financed with is permenantly broken...that is an issue and will continue to be. That toy is broken. They have to assume all operating costs as they have in many places...and is a big reason futureworld has collapsed.

But I'd rather they doze it than turn it into magic kingdom shoved in the pavilions...we already have gone too far that way. They don't need 4 of the same park on a monorail stop OR a gondola stop...that's an awful longterm strategy.

 

[Planogirl]

Can someone list all of the sponsors that still exist in Epcot? Just a few now and as far as I know Morocco is the only country. Norway was destroyed pretty much but I suspect that they are just the first.

Project S then... Anything else known about it?

 

[rteetz]

Can someone list all of the sponsors that still exist in Epcot? Just a few now and as far as I know Morocco is the only country. Norway was destroyed pretty much but I suspect that they are just the first.

Project S then... Anything else known about it?

Siemens, GM, Chase sponsors things at Food and Wine. That's all I got.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

Siemens, GM, Chase sponsors things at Food and Wine. That's all I got.

Right...at one time everything on that side of the lake was sponsored and some things in the countries as well.

It shows that model is broke and explains why they've kinda run the place into the ground.

Big names too: nestle (might still sponsor the land?), coke, Amex, Kodak, GM, Exxon, MetLife, sylvania, united technologies...

 

[rteetz]

Right...at one time everything on that side of the lake was sponsored and some things in the countries as well.

It shows that model is broke and explains why they've kinda run the place into the ground.

Big names too: nestle (might still sponsor the land?), coke, Amex, Kodak, GM, Exxon, MetLife, sylvania, united technologies...

I looked Nestle up it appears Nestle pulled out around 2009. HP sponsored Mission Space until a couple years ago too. GM is still going strong.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I looked Nestle up it appears Nestle pulled out around 2009. HP sponsored Mission Space until a couple years ago too. GM is still going strong.

Forgot HP...they have lost more money than the DNC in recent years...

I think GM is "locked in"...there's was real talk of that sponsorship being forceably cancelled when the Feds bailed them out in 2009

 

[Westcoastwild]

Yes yes yes!!!!

My DH found EPCOT World Showcase very peculiar. All he would elaborate was, "I lived in most of these countries... this isn't their culture... this is kitschy "what-Americans-without-passports-think-Europe-is-like." I was like,"fair point. Nobody prepares Kazakhstani food like the Kazakhstani people. well, yeah, let's NOT visit the Canada pavilion then... " We DID enjoy the Japan area though, as we haven't been able to visit in person. SO MUCH SHOPPING.

I knew Ellen's Energy was outdated and painful with no exit, so we didn't even walk over there. Okay, truth be told, if I went anywhere near the former World of Life pavilion, I was going to howl and cry like a professional Egyptian mourner. MY 2ND FAV PLACE and they've killed it too.... oh Figment...

So yeah PLEASE make EPCOT fun and wonderful again - do not let me see the attractions falling apart!!! Anymore than they already are....

Totally agree. Takes a lot of suspension of disbelief for it to be fun...but it IS fun.

But then again, that's Disney in general. I don't really think Epcot has ever been that educational. It's a bit like DCA. It's the west as people who have never been pictured it and it's Hollywood as LA never really was. I'm looking forward to DisneySea because I want to see the Asian version of this illusion.

If they ever close the Japan store, I will join in your howling. I love that place so much. Even though I have great Asian stores where I live and none of it's really new to me...it's the setting and architecture!

I think I'm too sober for this discussion...I need to be watching illuminations with a cold drink right now...

 

[Westcoastwild]

I have to say...I enjoyed this. And not - as I'm always pigeonholed as - because it's "anti-management"...but because it uses actual real facts/experiences and perceptions from a different point of view. So thank you.

The standard criticism of Epcot that has been used to justify the IP dump is that "it's not real anyway"...as in its fanaticized representations. That is of course true...Deutsch don't wear lederhosen everyday and Canadians go out in things other than flannel. But what showcase does do is create a familiarity/emotional tie to places by being lighthearted and still managing to give hint of real culture and education. Remember it was built very much during the Cold War.

For those of us that saw that in the pre digital/internet era...it was great experience that has lasted and is why it will always be my favorite park.

But sadly...your very valid critique is falling on some deaf ears here...because many can't mentally handle the idea that disney has or will make big mistakes in their parks...because that tarnishes their "happy place" and any valid criticism is too big of a mental hurdle to jump. All warm and fuzzies...no thought in this case.

No way in hell a valid argument can be made that Norway didn't fit the theme/intent of Epcot as constructed or that frozen "sorta fits"...it doesn't.

They could have stuck with the meet and greet just like the other pavilions and not permenantly altered the overall concept/theme. But it was quick and brash and not meant for the longterm. That's your current management.

I'll agree to a certain extent.

But on the other hand, all the remnants I've seen of "old Epcot" are about as educational as a 4th grade country report. The food "sort of" resembles the country's food. The history is from a pre- Cold War set of encyclopedias that the kid's grandma owns. The "artifacts" resemble souvenirs that someone brought back from a family trip. As in, no real German would be caught dead in that particular lederhosen. I haven't been to Norway but I've been to the U.K. and Germany. At no point did I feel like I was in those countries. It's like being on a really cute movie set.

I love Epcot. I had my picture taken in front of the Norway troll. But I tend to laugh at the idea that people ever went to it for the educational aspect, or that it was ever meant to be purely educational. Because if people want to be educated about space travel, they could go to the smithsonian or Kennedy space center. If they want to drink grapefruit beer and watch astronaut Mickey dance, they could go to Epcot.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'll agree to a certain extent.

But on the other hand, all the remnants I've seen of "old Epcot" are about as educational as a 4th grade country report. The food "sort of" resembles the country's food. The history is from a pre- Cold War set of encyclopedias that the kid's grandma owns. The "artifacts" resemble souvenirs that someone brought back from a family trip. As in, no real German would be caught dead in that particular lederhosen. I haven't been to Norway but I've been to the U.K. and Germany. At no point did I feel like I was in those countries. It's like being on a really cute movie set.

I love Epcot. I had my picture taken in front of the Norway troll. But I tend to laugh at the idea that people ever went to it for the educational aspect, or that it was ever meant to be purely educational. Because if people want to be educated about space travel, they could go to the smithsonian or Kennedy space center. If they want to drink grapefruit beer and watch astronaut Mickey dance, they could go to Epcot.

Hey...it was never "cultural immersion"...no argument there.

But if you assume that it was a "soft" take on the stated concept of "a permenant worlds fair"...then there is a sort of uniform accomplishment. Touristy things - like world fairs - were always gonna be cheeky. You let yourself accept the magic kingdom...why can't we let ourselves accept the world we would wish for in Epcot. It worked on me and still could...that is a timeless appeal. To let go and not feel dumbed down for doing it.

Some...like the mexico and Canada pavilions...is pretty much cheese. The American adventure is trapped in time in a lifelong battle against the soviets...

But...the quaint attempt to recreate the Parisian streets and the elegance of parts of Impressions De France...the gardens off the little streets in the U.K...the piazza where some (cough) have gotten married in the Italian pavilion...the courtyard in the German Pavilion...

...there can be charm there. A singing snowman honestly would wipe any of that charm away.

 

[Westcoastwild]

Hey...it was never "cultural immersion"...no argument there.

But if you assume that it was a "soft" take on the stated concept of "a permenant worlds fair"...then there is a sort of uniform accomplishment. Touristy things - like world fairs - were always gonna be cheeky. You let yourself accept the magic kingdom...why can't we let ourselves accept the world we would wish for in Epcot. It worked on me and still could...that is a timeless appeal. To let go and not feel dumbed down for doing it.

Some...like the mexico and Canada pavilions...is pretty much cheese. The American adventure is trapped in time in a lifelong battle against the soviets...

But...the quaint attempt to recreate the Parisian streets and the elegance of parts of Impressions De France...the gardens off the little streets in the U.K...the piazza where some (cough) have gotten married in the Italian pavilion...the courtyard in the German Pavilion...

...there can be charm there. A singing snowman honestly would wipe any of that charm away.

I'm not disagreeing with the Frozen location haters. I would prefer maelstrom- mostly because I don't actually like Frozen. There are actually a quite a few references to Norwegian culture/landscape in the film- I just don't like the film. I'd prefer Maelstrom...even though I doubt that was much more culturally accurate.

I was just pointing out that there isn't a lot of basis for the "introduction of characters/rides will ruin the educational aspect" argument. A soft take on world's fairs is exactly what it was designed to be. I agree, I am charmed by it. But it's "educational" like magic kingdom is "magical". It's make believe either way.

 

[lockedoutlogic]

I'm not disagreeing with the Frozen location haters. I would prefer maelstrom- mostly because I don't actually like Frozen. There are actually a quite a few references to Norwegian culture/landscape in the film- I just don't like the film. I'd prefer Maelstrom...even though I doubt that was much more culturally accurate.

I was just pointing out that there isn't a lot of basis for the "introduction of characters/rides will ruin the educational aspect" argument. A soft take on world's fairs is exactly what it was designed to be. I agree, I am charmed by it. But it's "educational" like magic kingdom is "magical". It's make believe either way.

Guardians of the galaxy in future world and Mulan teacups would totally tear at the uniform theme though...magic kingdom is fantasy...it's a theme. Epcot is "what was and can be"...that theme isn't "obsolete" in my opinion...

...but you have to care and pay the bill...and the stockholders apparently don't.

 

[mdsouth]

Yes yes yes!!!!

Okay, truth be told, if I went anywhere near the former World of Life pavilion, I was going to howl and cry like a professional Egyptian mourner. MY 2ND FAV PLACE and they've killed it too.... oh Figment...

So yeah PLEASE make EPCOT fun and wonderful again - do not let me see the attractions falling apart!!! Anymore than they already are....

You are so right! When I think of EPCOT, I picture my first visit there as a thirteen year old going through the World of Life pavilion. I loved walking through a huge heart and then watching the film that had a character traveling through the inside of the human body on some mission. It was the best. I was SO SO Disappointed when I returned to the pavilion years later to discover it gone. When you read this comment, picture, Eeyore just standing with his head down and tail hanging down, saying something about it just being a sad state of things and you can visualize my feelings.

Oh

 

[AtlantaDisneyDreamer]

I'll agree to a certain extent.

But on the other hand, all the remnants I've seen of "old Epcot" are about as educational as a 4th grade country report. The food "sort of" resembles the country's food. The history is from a pre- Cold War set of encyclopedias that the kid's grandma owns. The "artifacts" resemble souvenirs that someone brought back from a family trip. As in, no real German would be caught dead in that particular lederhosen. I haven't been to Norway but I've been to the U.K. and Germany. At no point did I feel like I was in those countries. It's like being on a really cute movie set.

I love Epcot. I had my picture taken in front of the Norway troll. But I tend to laugh at the idea that people ever went to it for the educational aspect, or that it was ever meant to be purely educational. Because if people want to be educated about space travel, they could go to the smithsonian or Kennedy space center. If they want to drink grapefruit beer and watch astronaut Mickey dance, they could go to Epcot.

I agree with this. To me, the beauty of Epcot is not that it teaches you anything, but that it inspires you to learn more. That's why I am actually ok with the changes in Norway. It doesn't matter if Arendelle is a fictional city if it inspires people to learn more about the real Norway. Same for any of the countries in the WS. I studied German in college and spent some time in the country, partially inspired by my first visit as a young person to the "fake" Germany in WS. After my dad, an avid gardener, visited the "fake"Japan at the WS, he went back home and read and learned about Japanese gardens and built his own Japanese garden in our back yard. He even went to Japan for a year through an exchange program with the college where he taught. He had been inspired by his visit to Epcot.

Neither Spaceship Earth nor The Land teach us that much, but they certainly inspire me to read and learn more about history and farming and space because the rides make those things seem fascinating.

That's really how I view WDW as a whole: Inspirational. I can't say that I have learned a lot visiting the parks, but my visits there have inspired me to read and learn more and to be excited about things I may never have been previously excited about. That is one of the biggest challenges in education is getting people excited about learning. I think Epcot does that. At least, it does for me.

 

[Westcoastwild]

I agree with this. To me, the beauty of Epcot is not that it teaches you anything, but that it inspires you to learn more. That's why I am actually ok with the changes in Norway. It doesn't matter if Arendelle is a fictional city if it inspires people to learn more about the real Norway. Same for any of the countries in the WS. I studied German in college and spent some time in the country, partially inspired by my first visit as a young person to the "fake" Germany in WS. After my dad, an avid gardener, visited the "fake"Japan at the WS, he went back home and read and learned about Japanese gardens and built his own Japanese garden in our back yard. He even went to Japan for a year through an exchange program with the college where he taught. He had been inspired by his visit to Epcot.

Neither Spaceship Earth nor The Land teach us that much, but they certainly inspire me to read and learn more about history and farming and space because the rides make those things seem fascinating.

That's really how I view WDW as a whole: Inspirational. I can't say that I have learned a lot visiting the parks, but my visits there have inspired me to read and learn more and to be excited about things I may never have been previously excited about. That is one of the biggest challenges in education is getting people excited about learning. I think Epcot does that. At least, it does for me.

Absolutely agree with everything you wrote! Inspiration is a GREAT word for it. I don't learn much but it makes me want to learn more about topics that I don't have a great deal of interest in- that's exactly why I enjoyed the Land.
And I do think Frozen fits in that idea- as I said, I didn't like the movie but I wanted to see what the fuss was about. The ride queue is really well done and I think the ride in general gets a lot more people into "Norway" than would otherwise be there. Kids at least get exposure to the culture through connecting the characters outfits to the real ethnic outfits of the region. The little exhibit was fun to read through.

And that's so funny (and awesome) about your dad!

 

[HopperFan]

I agree with this. To me, the beauty of Epcot is not that it teaches you anything, but that it inspires you to learn more. That's why I am actually ok with the changes in Norway. It doesn't matter if Arendelle is a fictional city if it inspires people to learn more about the real Norway. Same for any of the countries in the WS. I studied German in college and spent some time in the country, partially inspired by my first visit as a young person to the "fake" Germany in WS. After my dad, an avid gardener, visited the "fake"Japan at the WS, he went back home and read and learned about Japanese gardens and built his own Japanese garden in our back yard. He even went to Japan for a year through an exchange program with the college where he taught. He had been inspired by his visit to Epcot.

Neither Spaceship Earth nor The Land teach us that much, but they certainly inspire me to read and learn more about history and farming and space because the rides make those things seem fascinating.

That's really how I view WDW as a whole: Inspirational. I can't say that I have learned a lot visiting the parks, but my visits there have inspired me to read and learn more and to be excited about things I may never have been previously excited about. That is one of the biggest challenges in education is getting people excited about learning. I think Epcot does that. At least, it does for me.

 

[Mac7]

I'm 100%, maybe 1000%, OK with this decision to put Marvel at EPCOT.

For one simple reason...

...the Tower of Terror will live at WDW.

OK, so I'm also not as happy with EPCOT as I am the other parks. The entire thing is basically souvenir shops with a few attractions thrown in for good measure. The whole place is becoming an internationally-inspired Disney Springs.

I'm actually an educator by trade, but I don't consider EPCOT to be all that educational past an elementary level aside from The Land, since many people aren't familiar with small-scale farming techniques. (It's more the "geography lesson" that's stuck at a level elementary kids can gain something from). It's more or less a place to go and do the food and wine festival, ride Test Track and Soarin', go to see the American Experience show (which I do like), and soak in a few boring, outdated, or diversion-type attractions. GOTG would be a good way to get more kids excited about going to EPCOT...they could go there with their fun uncle while the parents go and spend $$$ on tchotchkes at World Showcase.

I like Hollywood Studios far better as a park, and not just because Tower of Terror is my favorite ride. The park has more pop-up entertainment, has a learning experience most people would WANT to see (the Indy show), good, live performances of two classic princess tales (even if they are a bit old now, they're still good), a few great rides, and restaurants that are fun (and can also offer learning experiences about our American culture--actually, the park provides a lot of ways to link generations together since there are areas from the 30s/40s, the 50s, you've got old-school Star Wars and Indy fans from the 70s/80s, the princess shows are late 80s/early 90s...too bad we have nothing from the 60s there!)

But yes...

Long live Tower of Terror!!
Bring on the EPCOT changes!!

 

[lockedoutlogic]

How low thought it is to wish for magic kingdom everywhere...my opinion