Permit Filed: "Project S" at Epcot

It was called FutureWorld but I never felt it did a good job, as a whole, of showing us where we were going. And I think part of that is because you simply can't keep up with the future unless you are building futuristic. By time Disney finishes something it's outdated which is why classic attractions have longevity.

While some like @BuckeyeBama got the full learning part out of it ... Disney has to build for the average guest and guaranteed they just aren't interested. Look at Carousel of Progress, Hall of Presidents and most the exhibits in the World Showcase ........... empty, used for refuge from rain. The internet has changed the way folks learn and explore, cities with hand-on children and science museums, schools with STEM education, increases in big aquariums, well traveled families .... Epcot used to fill a void for many that just isn't there anymore.

Disney has to follow the demand in their parks for future construction. They are an entertainment company.
All of that may be true, but the best (and most fun) way to learn is to "do". No matter how much the world changes, that will still be true. The old Epcot had kids doing things, and learning from the doing. The new Epcot should get back to those roots. Kids have computer games on their phones. We don't need that from Epcot.
 
Those are all good points - the internet shows kids as much or more info on a given country than they can get at EPCOT (Different, sure, but a lot of info) .... and people just travel more. It used to be taking a flight was a big deal and people dressed up for it, etc. - now a lot of kids have been to Europe, etc.

I still love World Showcase and talking to the Cast Members that are from those countries, etc. - but obviously that is not how everyone does Disney

I love this! We have had some great conversations (I do think Disney needs to do better in bringing over social kids and hiring social CMs ... many are not). At least half the countries have become favorites because of our convos with CMs and them helping us pick a food or beer or telling us why such and such is different where they live. Even German kids have discussed our last name and how it might fit. When my kids were young they liked the Kidcot, not just for craft but had the CM write to them in their own language in their autograph books, asked them questions ... I thought that was a great way to add something for the kids.

PS I also love all the CMs at AKL and wish there were more of them at AK. It's awesome that they come from all over the continent.

You are so right about travel. I remember my first flight and I don't think I flew twice until after I got married. Travel to WDW for my family growing up was a really big deal. To my kids WDW a favorite (they have APs) but no big deal travel wise when they (without us) have been to Colombia, Panama, Tokyo, Rome, Philippines, Cuba, cruises, all over the US ...... under their belt and only in 20's. So they look at WS a bit different than how I used to. So maybe bringing in IP attractions that tie would be okay ... but to me they have to be inside behind closed doors, I don't want to see them. And if it did what it did to Norway, and create an interest to learn more by younger ones, it has stimulated learning.

All of that may be true, but the best (and most fun) way to learn is to "do". No matter how much the world changes, that will still be true. The old Epcot had kids doing things, and learning from the doing. The new Epcot should get back to those roots. Kids have computer games on their phones. We don't need that from Epcot.

I hear you but I think you are beating a dead horse. Whether we like it or not, learning has changed, families look at vacations as time away from working/learning, there is so little time to get what you want done at WDW many skip anything not entertaining, Innoventions the last holdout died, no one is playing in the Imagination interactive area .... it's a FP+ world at Disney now and folks just don't go there to learn. Sadly folks are more interested in learning about aliens and Pandora than their own world.
 
I think there are lots of ways to keep edutainment if they want to. There are no shortage of kids museums across the U.S., we visit plenty when travelling since we have 5.5 year old twins and a 7.5 year old. That's what I remember from the Imagination Pavilion before it went in the crapper. They could easily do it again, like Wonderworks only better. It just takes money. The same with Innoventions. I don't know why they don't do a whole section on coding with different coding games for different ages. Coding is one thing that is not going away and I have to believe Disney could come up with better options than the coding tutorial games my kids love on the computer. Maybe something where you have a real life object that is moved and the object gets more complex as the experience of the game increases. Even at the highest levels where there is some kind of short ride with the movements coded by the more advanced users. It's not that hard to come up with this stuff, a lot of it exists, it just needs to be Disneyfied and taken to the next level.

Why they don't take the concept of Living Seas and move it to Energy is also beyond me. Living Seas has a great edutainment component inside. Energy could be the same thing. You could have bubbling algae tanks, windmills in a wind tunnel that show how much energy is created at different wind levels, solar panels that need adjusting to a moving sun to demonstrate how to get maximum efficiency. You could work with batteries and showing kids how distance and wire sizes affect voltage efficiency and have a game set up so that after you learn about the renewable energy sources, you have to set up a system based on environmental parameters to power a city for a simulated day with clouds and wind speeds and batteries needed for night time and loss of points for having to fire up your fossil fuel generator. It would be the culmination of the pavilion. A lot of this could be hands on and incorporated into games, with results stored on the magic bands. So you can compete against your family for who wins the coding area, who wins the energy pavilion, etc. Before or after you would have a dark ride.

And for the love of god, bring back the health pavilion. This is simple to have a few ropes courses for different ages and skill levels where your biometrics are tracked beginning and end. The biometrics are then explained and more advanced and simpler health improvement exercises and monitoring are included. Mental health has a component, and you bring in Inside Out to rebuild Cranium Commander. This is a stupid no brainer, especially with the food aspect where you could have a gourmet vegan type restaurant, a juice bar, a smoothie section, and entire nutritional component. Again, it all exists, but Disney could do it so much better.

If they just improved those four areas, even if they included IPs, for example Big Hero Six in the coding area, Figment in the kids science museum, Wall-E in the energy area and Inside Out in the health pavilion EPCOT could once again be fantastic edutainment. Families would have a blast competing in each pavilion and you would get all the edutainment EPCOT opened with.
 
I fail to see how adding any IPs necessarily takes away from the Edutainment message. It can, I grant you, but it does not have to.

I think of the following, and what fun and learning it can be....

Items noted to be changed:
Update of Land - it has a clear message about conservation, keeping it in that theme, with some newer IP isn't a bad idea, or at least an update of the Lion King video.
Update of Seas - by all reports it will probably be a finding Dory update..again, not bad....but agree the "lab" part needs updated.
Update of Innovations - so far almost no news on this, but would love an area "dedicated" to Big Hero 6 - and robotics...and their uses. with hands on applications...that would be a blast for young and old.
Update of Mission Space - per most reports updated screens and maybe a new mission - maybe direct it more to space exploration?
Universe of Energy - Okay this is supposed to be GotG based, with an inside roller coaster - but it can STILL be based on energy - and that can be the focus of the ride - finding "ENERGY" in a space type format, with the fun snark that IS GotG. Maybe more focused on Nuclear or battery cell driven...including Electric cars and such.

Again, assuming the other change coming - that being FW will get renamed - Discovery would be fine, and focus those upgrades on the discovery of those areas and how they are being discovered - adding IP can be used to enhance, not detract.

I tend to look at the more positive - until I see hard evidence that it won't be better.
 


I think there are lots of ways to keep edutainment if they want to. There are no shortage of kids museums across the U.S., we visit plenty when travelling since we have 5.5 year old twins and a 7.5 year old. That's what I remember from the Imagination Pavilion before it went in the crapper. They could easily do it again, like Wonderworks only better. It just takes money. The same with Innoventions. I don't know why they don't do a whole section on coding with different coding games for different ages. Coding is one thing that is not going away and I have to believe Disney could come up with better options than the coding tutorial games my kids love on the computer. Maybe something where you have a real life object that is moved and the object gets more complex as the experience of the game increases. Even at the highest levels where there is some kind of short ride with the movements coded by the more advanced users. It's not that hard to come up with this stuff, a lot of it exists, it just needs to be Disneyfied and taken to the next level.

Why they don't take the concept of Living Seas and move it to Energy is also beyond me. Living Seas has a great edutainment component inside. Energy could be the same thing. You could have bubbling algae tanks, windmills in a wind tunnel that show how much energy is created at different wind levels, solar panels that need adjusting to a moving sun to demonstrate how to get maximum efficiency. You could work with batteries and showing kids how distance and wire sizes affect voltage efficiency and have a game set up so that after you learn about the renewable energy sources, you have to set up a system based on environmental parameters to power a city for a simulated day with clouds and wind speeds and batteries needed for night time and loss of points for having to fire up your fossil fuel generator. It would be the culmination of the pavilion. A lot of this could be hands on and incorporated into games, with results stored on the magic bands. So you can compete against your family for who wins the coding area, who wins the energy pavilion, etc. Before or after you would have a dark ride.

And for the love of god, bring back the health pavilion. This is simple to have a few ropes courses for different ages and skill levels where your biometrics are tracked beginning and end. The biometrics are then explained and more advanced and simpler health improvement exercises and monitoring are included. Mental health has a component, and you bring in Inside Out to rebuild Cranium Commander. This is a stupid no brainer, especially with the food aspect where you could have a gourmet vegan type restaurant, a juice bar, a smoothie section, and entire nutritional component. Again, it all exists, but Disney could do it so much better.

If they just improved those four areas, even if they included IPs, for example Big Hero Six in the coding area, Figment in the kids science museum, Wall-E in the energy area and Inside Out in the health pavilion EPCOT could once again be fantastic edutainment. Families would have a blast competing in each pavilion and you would get all the edutainment EPCOT opened with.

They could do all of this, like you said. But you uncovered why they wont:

"It just takes money"

Why put in multi million dollar learning exhibits with little gift store appeal when they could have the Star Lord high five your twins and then sell you a GotG gift set?

ETA: We went to Chicago last week, and those museums, especially the MSI, were mind blowing. EPCOT could and should be on that level. But its not.
 
They could do all of this, like you said. But you uncovered why they wont:

"It just takes money"

Why put in multi million dollar learning exhibits with little gift store appeal when they could have the Star Lord high five your twins and then sell you a GotG gift set?

ETA: We went to Chicago last week, and those museums, especially the MSI, where mind blowing. EPCOT could and should be on that level. But its not.
Because Disney doesn't want to put the money into major exhibits like that without a sponsor.
 


They could do all of this, like you said. But you uncovered why they wont:

"It just takes money"

Why put in multi million dollar learning exhibits with little gift store appeal when they could have the Star Lord high five your twins and then sell you a GotG gift set?

ETA: We went to Chicago last week, and those museums, especially the MSI, were mind blowing. EPCOT could and should be on that level. But its not.

I know. But what's the line? "Hope is the last thing to die, and the hardest thing to kill, in the human spirit?"
 
I think they could still do Future World, what is dead is companies paying huge sums of money to build and maintain areas while Disney makes money hand over fist from it.

Yep, time to move on with a new financial strategy.

Disney just had a great gravy train going and doesn't want/know how to let go of it.

Yep, time to move on with a new financial strategy.

But as someone else said, in the day of the internet, companies aren't going to pay huge amounts of money to get their products in front of a relatively small audience

Yep, time to move on with a new financial strategy.

Companies are still developing really cool technology and pushing the envelope though, so I don't think the concept is played out. Edutainment is only getting more popular, too.

Agreed-need to implement with a new financial strategy and the strengths Disney possesses.
 
Some good discussions here, folks, but this thread is about "Project S" (and indirectly the canal modification project). most of what's being talked about is not related to the topic.
 
They could do all of this, like you said. But you uncovered why they wont:

"It just takes money"

Why put in multi million dollar learning exhibits with little gift store appeal when they could have the Star Lord high five your twins and then sell you a GotG gift set?

ETA: We went to Chicago last week, and those museums, especially the MSI, were mind blowing. EPCOT could and should be on that level. But its not.

couldn't it be both? Couldn't they have great "discovery" like exhibits like other children museums have but then skin it with Star Lord or Minnie Mouse or whatever? And those museums always have gift shops with take home things that they could see - and then "upsell" by having Mickey and Minnie on them
 
couldn't it be both? Couldn't they have great "discovery" like exhibits like other children museums have but then skin it with Star Lord or Minnie Mouse or whatever? And those museums always have gift shops with take home things that they could see - and then "upsell" by having Mickey and Minnie on them

I think they could have both, I know we bought stuff at the gift shops while at the museums.

But they have shown they don't want to have both, as evidenced by Innovations/Health Pavilion/Etc....

Maybe Project S is to turn that Ship around?
 
I think they could have both, I know we bought stuff at the gift shops while at the museums.

But they have shown they don't want to have both, as evidenced by Innovations/Health Pavilion/Etc....

Maybe Project S is to turn that Ship around?
Or to let it Sink.... ;)

The comments about the museums are interesting. Our science museums are very hands-on and also always packed. People seem to enjoy learning somewhere besides the internet but maybe more so if they participate?
 
Or to let it Sink.... ;)

The comments about the museums are interesting. Our science museums are very hands-on and also always packed. People seem to enjoy learning somewhere besides the internet but maybe more so if they participate?


That's kind of my point. They have the ability to build themed hands on edutainment on an unheard of scale and with a huge increase in complexity. People pay a lot of money to go to WonderWorks, let alone the not-for-profit type edutainment. It really could be something unique and special, and it would complement the WS in that you spend time competing and learning and riding up front, and then head to the back for food and relaxation. It would be an amazing family park. And it is already set up correctly. Innoventions and Imagination used to incorporate some of these ideas. As do some of the games in Seas and other Missions you can do throughout the park. With the Magic Bands, you could take the family cooperation or competition to a whole new level.

Unfortunately, it's not as simple as just importing some IPs into a simulator ride. It would take real thought and imagination. Something I think Disney has shied away from since Animal Kingdom opened. Instead what we are going to get is another character and ride based theme park. The biggest difference between MK, EPCOT, and DHS is going to be implementation, not mission. And that is a shame, as all 3 of those parks were originally designed with disparate missions that kept a family going for days seeing something radically different in each park. Yes, we all had our favorites, but a day at MK was so different from a day at EPCOT, and a day at EPCOT was very different from a day at Studios. Now they are all trending toward the same thing.

Personally, I think it is a mistake Disney is making that will hurt them, eventually, over the long-term. The goal isn't to compete with USO in all 4 gates. The goal is to have something in all 4 gates that makes you want to stay on Disney property for 4-7 days because the experience is so very, very different each day.
 
As someone who is half Norwegian and has been to the REAL Norway (Have you?), I'm a little put off by your remarks. First, Norway is a country, it is not made up of countries. Also, the Norway Pavilion is a perfect representation of Old Norway. You have Bergen (west coast), a Stave Church (found all over the country), and Akershus Fortress, which is in Olso on the Eastern side of the country. I always love visiting the pavilion because I recognize the surroundings it and it feels real.

I agree with the others that adding Frozen to the pavilion does nothing to support the idea of Norway. I can also add I was very upset when the removed Maelstrom. I like the Frozen movie, and would probably like FEA, but I don't feel it belongs in EPCOT. It'd be like putting Aladdin's Flying Carpets in Morocco.... doesn't quite jive with the idea of learning about a REAL country.

Glad I'm on vacation this week....

Check my statement. "NORWAY PAVILION" I do not say Norway as a country is a mishmash. I refer to the PAVILION. Which is not a falsehood. It was a mishmash or Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark (Google the Mysterious Danish Bathrooms of EPCOT).

My wife is Swedish.

Chill.
 
The comments about the museums are interesting. Our science museums are very hands-on and also always packed. People seem to enjoy learning somewhere besides the internet but maybe more so if they participate?

I think guest psychology works against the original Epcot model.

When I visit a museum or a science center, I'm prepared for a lightweight, edutainment experience. Sure people of all ages enjoy the exhibits at such places, but while doing so they know there isn't a Soarin or Test Track lurking around the corner.

In its final incarnation, there were plenty of clever interactive exhibits at Innoventions. Perhaps they didn't change as frequently as repeat guests would like, but there were plenty of first-timers to keep those exhibits packed if that's what people really wanted. Animal Kingdom (in particular) still has many hands-on encounters. But it seems like for every family that stops to watch, dozens more just walk right past.

It's a reflection of what the average Walt Disney World guest wants and expects in the 2010s. A variety of factors play into this, not the least of which is admission price. I can buy an annual family membership to our nearby zoo for about $100. The nearby science center is well under $100. For those prices, we can visit a dozen times a year and get the most from every exhibit.

At Disney World, most families are spending hundreds of dollars for travel plus thousands more for lodging and park tickets. They don't have time for feeling snake skin, petting goats or observing surgery on a gazelle. They want Expedition Everest and Kali River Rapids.
 
I think guest psychology works against the original Epcot model.

When I visit a museum or a science center, I'm prepared for a lightweight, edutainment experience. Sure people of all ages enjoy the exhibits at such places, but while doing so they know there isn't a Soarin or Test Track lurking around the corner.

In its final incarnation, there were plenty of clever interactive exhibits at Innoventions. Perhaps they didn't change as frequently as repeat guests would like, but there were plenty of first-timers to keep those exhibits packed if that's what people really wanted. Animal Kingdom (in particular) still has many hands-on encounters. But it seems like for every family that stops to watch, dozens more just walk right past.

It's a reflection of what the average Walt Disney World guest wants and expects in the 2010s. A variety of factors play into this, not the least of which is admission price. I can buy an annual family membership to our nearby zoo for about $100. The nearby science center is well under $100. For those prices, we can visit a dozen times a year and get the most from every exhibit.

At Disney World, most families are spending hundreds of dollars for travel plus thousands more for lodging and park tickets. They don't have time for feeling snake skin, petting goats or observing surgery on a gazelle. They want Expedition Everest and Kali River Rapids.

That's a valid point.

I do think, however, that they could have hands on experiences to compliment the rides, instead of empty or half used buildings.
 
That's a valid point.

I do think, however, that they could have hands on experiences to compliment the rides, instead of empty or half used buildings.
Truth.

What should make you more upset as a paying customer. Hands on exhibits or empty buildings? Easy answer
 
Truth.

What should make you more upset as a paying customer. Hands on exhibits or empty buildings? Easy answer

I don't understand why they keep emptying out those buildings.

Why close Sum of all thrills, as well as other things.

Are people storming the gates on their way out telling guest services that they feel they've underpaid because of the plethora of things to do?
 

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