Recession Question

With the flagging economy comes a drop in attendance at the parks, and no on will be paying rack rates for rooms (I'm not convinced a lot of people pay rack rates with our booming economy today). Exactly this sort of thing happened the year immediately after 9/11, Disney (and tourism in general) was hurting badly. Construction on Pop Century stopped completely. Live shows like "Beauty and the Beast" were cancelled (yes, that was around then, and yes, that needs to be put out to pasture). Parks opened later to save money. The list goes on. Point being, Disney is not the Disney we see today when the economy ***** the bed and the Mouse is suddenly finds himself penny pinching.

If the economy takes a another hit like in 2008, (which is not inconceivable given relaxed banking regulations, zero-down lending habits re-emerging, over-inflated asset values, banks failing stress tests, society - and entire countries - over-leveraged, etc.), a lot of people will either lose their job or live in fear of losing their job. In that state of mind, Disney will be among the last things on people's to-dos. It doesn't just take DVCers to be directly affected to change prices. Simply take away a chunk of foreign travelers, or once-in-a-lifetimers who will put that trip off a few years, and you will impact hugely the ability for Disney to service those who are locked into 50 years of visits the way they're able to today. When the product changes, its value changes.

How low will resale prices drop when Disney is not artificially propping that floor up? Low-ballers will continue to test that bottom. Despite the flood of ROFRs the last two months, people are still offering ROFR ripe prices. Imagine if we learned Disney stopped ROFR (as they nearly did a couple of years post 2008) today. How many of those premium priced DVC Resale Market contracts would be confident they can wait out for a buyer to come up and meet them?

Others who are more business savvy may be able to handle it, but for me, the risks of buying into a timeshare, and relying on the viability of the rental market longterm to make it work financially, is far too great to do comfortably.

- Chicken Little

Yeah agree with that logic - you should never buy anything you can't afford financially. Was just saying that is how I justify values/floors looking at it like I do other asset classes with discounted cashflows. I would probably be buying more contracts if we ever do see a crash - but hopefully we do not for the benefit of the majority.
 
With the flagging economy comes a drop in attendance at the parks, and no on will be paying rack rates for rooms (I'm not convinced a lot of people pay rack rates with our booming economy today). Exactly this sort of thing happened the year immediately after 9/11, Disney (and tourism in general) was hurting badly. Construction on Pop Century stopped completely. Live shows like "Beauty and the Beast" were cancelled (yes, that was around then, and yes, that needs to be put out to pasture). Parks opened later to save money. The list goes on. Point being, Disney is not the Disney we see today when the economy ***** the bed and the Mouse is suddenly finds himself penny pinching.

If the economy takes a another hit like in 2008, (which is not inconceivable given relaxed banking regulations, zero-down lending habits re-emerging, over-inflated asset values, banks failing stress tests, society - and entire countries - over-leveraged, etc.), a lot of people will either lose their job or live in fear of losing their job. In that state of mind, Disney will be among the last things on people's to-dos. It doesn't just take DVCers to be directly affected to change prices. Simply take away a chunk of foreign travelers, or once-in-a-lifetimers who will put that trip off a few years, and you will impact hugely the ability for Disney to service those who are locked into 50 years of visits the way they're able to today. When the product changes, its value changes.

How low will resale prices drop when Disney is not artificially propping that floor up? Low-ballers will continue to test that bottom. Despite the flood of ROFRs the last two months, people are still offering ROFR ripe prices. Imagine if we learned Disney stopped ROFR (as they nearly did a couple of years post 2008) today. How many of those premium priced DVC Resale Market contracts would be confident they can wait out for a buyer to come up and meet them?

Others who are more business savvy may be able to handle it, but for me, the risks of buying into a timeshare, and relying on the viability of the rental market longterm to make it work financially, is far too great to do comfortably.

- Chicken Little

I'm Chicken Little 2. Our BWV stay in 2015 was a cash room - we booked a studio - I believe around $280/night in the spring - it was Magic/Dream season, I think. we got upgraded to a 1BR, which is how we started thinking seriously about DVC. But we have never paid rack rates. The most we ever paid was around $360 for GF deluxe lagoon view (same, Magic/Dream season for DVC); all our other deluxe stays were <$300/nt. These were not necessarily easy deals to get or find (which is partly why we bought DVC), but they were there.
 
Was the rental market as big as it was today. How much were points going for to rent
No, lot's of things are different. I've rented some periodically since 1994/95. I don't own as many points as I once did at 432 (previously 885) but I still rent an average of maybe a couple of units a year or slightly more. Even during the recession I was easily able to get $10 per point which is the lowest I've ever rented for that wasn't a distressed rental. The only distressed rental was someone who backed out having paid only their 25% deposit so my total amount was still comparable or slightly higher even. But finding distressed rentals for more in the $6 pp post range and rentals in general at $8.50 pp were fairly routine during that time. Compared to sales prices at the time the rental price was actually more during the recession than it is now. During a true recession people don't do on vacation, ROFR totally stops at any reasonable level, more people want to rent out their points and even those that are willing to do so are not going to pay as much. Even if they could pay more they know that they can get a deal so they make that a priority. On top of that many of the properties have less years remaining on the RTU that were around then. I turned down a VWL contract for 150 pts at $42.50 offering $40 which in retrospect might not have been a good choice and even then that was a good deal but not a great deal. One could easily get SSR at $40 pp at VB at under $30 pp.
 
Yeah agree with that logic - you should never buy anything you can't afford financially. Was just saying that is how I justify values/floors looking at it like I do other asset classes with discounted cashflows. I would probably be buying more contracts if we ever do see a crash - but hopefully we do not for the benefit of the majority.
The same thing happened and would happen in many areas. Real estate dropped in many areas by far more than being discussed here as did the stock markets in that range as well.
 


No, lot's of things are different. I've rented some periodically since 1994/95. I don't own as many points as I once did at 432 (previously 885) but I still rent an average of maybe a couple of units a year or slightly more. Even during the recession I was easily able to get $10 per point which is the lowest I've ever rented for that wasn't a distressed rental. The only distressed rental was someone who backed out having paid only their 25% deposit so my total amount was still comparable or slightly higher even. But finding distressed rentals for more in the $6 pp post range and rentals in general at $8.50 pp were fairly routine during that time. Compared to sales prices at the time the rental price was actually more during the recession than it is now. During a true recession people don't do on vacation, ROFR totally stops at any reasonable level, more people want to rent out their points and even those that are willing to do so are not going to pay as much. Even if they could pay more they know that they can get a deal so they make that a priority. On top of that many of the properties have less years remaining on the RTU that were around then. I turned down a VWL contract for 150 pts at $42.50 offering $40 which in retrospect might not have been a good choice and even then that was a good deal but not a great deal. One could easily get SSR at $40 pp at VB at under $30 pp.

I did the same thing, turning down contracts because I thought I could get them for a dollar or two cheaper per point. Back in the last down turn there were a lot of people desperate to sell and it was totally a buyer's market.

My points are all from that last recession and I've already broken even on all my purchases, so when rental prices drop in the next recession, people that bought when I did will be able to totally under cut anyone else for rental rates.
 
That was the drop in 2008/2009 close to 50% esp for VB, HH, OKW & SSR. When you combine a major recession with no ROFR, prices will drop dramatically over time just like they did before. Consider they are likely overinflated currently anyway and it would be worse than that.

In my recollection the biggest drop during that time coincided with the announcements of the first resale restrictions. The economy had some earlier effect but the 50% came more with the uncertainty of the restrictions. That's when I could have gotten OKW for $40/pt and did get BWV for $50/pt (although that wasn't a 50% decrease as it had generally been selling for high $70's and low $80's). Those numbers were not regularly seen earlier but did go for awhile after the announcement.
 
too many contracts for Disney to ROFR,
Definitely an huge aspect of how the resale market would go. Why would DVC want to get more contracts/point when they would likely be having difficulty selling what they have already. When or if it were to happen there would also still have to be a line where it makes sense for someone to sell -- either the need the money to pay off an existing loan or they need to dump luxury expenses but are still not willing to just give away a contract. Lets hope we are not headed towards that. But a lot has to do with making sure you don't over extend yourself, which is why many here will promote paying cash for the contract.

zero-down lending habits re-emerging,
This concept makes me cringe. I have seen so many people buy homes with no or very little down (and they think this is a great concept). Those who did buy before the housing bubble burst in 2007ish with the no/low down payment are just finally starting to have some equity in their homes after paying on it for 10 years.
 


This concept makes me cringe. I have seen so many people buy homes with no or very little down (and they think this is a great concept). Those who did buy before the housing bubble burst in 2007ish with the no/low down payment are just finally starting to have some equity in their homes after paying on it for 10 years.

I'm not sure if this has been going on for a long time, or if this is fairly new, but I am seeing almost the same thing as I am car shopping. I can buy a $40000 car with only 10% down and .9% APR. Not an issue for me as i have saved up enough to pay all cash up front if needed, but I could see a lot of people scrimping to save just enough for the down payment and then be on the hook for $500+ payments every month for 5 years straight. That is just asking for defaults on the loan.
 
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I did the same thing, turning down contracts because I thought I could get them for a dollar or two cheaper per point. Back in the last down turn there were a lot of people desperate to sell and it was totally a buyer's market.

My points are all from that last recession and I've already broken even on all my purchases, so when rental prices drop in the next recession, people that bought when I did will be able to totally under cut anyone else for rental rates.
Had I been intent on buying there I would have taken it. It was a good deal then and I got greedy but it didn't cost me anything. It was worth the risk and loss.
 
I bought BCV just as prices were recovering. $84/point at that time (2014) seemed risky because it had been in the low $70s the year before.

What if I were buying at the top of the market and we went down again?

At every price point in time there is uncertainty about what the future holds.

Whatever you might think about my $84 BCV contract* today, that involves a healthy dose of armchair quarterbacking. On Wed morning (after even all the talking heads have spoken).

In real time, every price point represents a potential gain but also a healthy risk.

I’m just saying that it’s easy to view the last several years of DVC pricing in retrospect. But. If we all knew what we know today, we’d have all snagged up all those $50 BWV contracts. They were that price then for a reason; it represented the market balance between risk and profit. (And there was much more risk churning in the markets, even the DVC resale market.)

*DW thinks our 250 point $84 BCV is one of the best deals we’ve ever made. Now. Then, she reluctantly followed my lead, “I trust you on this.” And even at that, I wasn’t thinking about $90 future value, let alone higher; I was thinking that I could make this price point work for us no matter what future pricing held.
 
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The signs that Disney is building new resorts is a good sign for the economy. They were hit hard with their projects during the last recession, but things seem like they are back on track now.
 
The signs that Disney is building new resorts is a good sign for the economy. They were hit hard with their projects during the last recession, but things seem like they are back on track now.

It doesn't mean anything going forward though, their current building is a reflection of the past and present. Pop Century was built when the economy was hot, but was then left half abandoned when the tech stocks crashed.
 
If things were to go free fall due to the economy, does the board think Disney will selectively pick a few of the resorts to prop up with rofr’s (newer?, monorail?) or do they equally let market forces decide which resorts get hit the hardest? Did this happen back in 2008?
 
If things were to go free fall due to the economy, does the board think Disney will selectively pick a few of the resorts to prop up with rofr’s (newer?, monorail?) or do they equally let market forces decide which resorts get hit the hardest? Did this happen back in 2008?
It seems you're thinking of ROFR as mainly to support the resale price and that's not the case. What ROFR is designed for is to aid with retail sales. Other than a fire sale situation, they don't make as much money on resale as they do on retail. They'll make these decisions based on the dollars involved. I'm sure there were those following ROFR much closer than I during the last recession who can say how ROFR was distributed but the lower demand resorts certainly were easy to get through. They had to have the cash to do so thus picking and choosing the ones easier to sell would be a no brainer. In reality they don't care about resale prices per se, what they care about is selling retail and the smaller the differential between one and the other, the easier it is to get those who are informed to buy. Those who don't know, which is the majority, it doesn't matter at all. Some of those will learn about the resale option after signing and cancel during the cancelation window. Their ideal situation would be the appearance one could resale but a reality one can't feasibly do so. Marriott Trust Points have added such fees that it's not that much cheaper than retail but you get all the perks. I'm not sure if DVC could do it that way since Marriott is a trust system rather than a direct (RTU) ownership.
 
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If things were to go free fall due to the economy, does the board think Disney will selectively pick a few of the resorts to prop up with rofr’s (newer?, monorail?) or do they equally let market forces decide which resorts get hit the hardest? Did this happen back in 2008?

I think it's nuts to say Disney uses ROFR to "prop up" anything.

In 2008, Disney stopped ROFR because they weren't sure that they could resell the contracts that they picked up. (There was also a change in their financing IIRC that left them a little strapped for cash.)

I think BCV may have been ROFRed a few more times than other resorts around that time but that was moreso driven by supply and demand - it's a small resort that is extremely popular.

ROFR is a tool that let's Disney pick up cheap inventory. ROFR is also used to annoy resale buyers into considering a direct purchase.

The notion that Disney uses ROFR to prop up owners' resale prices is simply a fantasy.
 
In reality they don't care about resale prices per se, what they care about is selling retail and the smaller the differential between one and the other, the easier it is to get those who are informed to buy retail.
FTFY.
 
ROFR is also used to annoy resale buyers into considering a direct purchase.

The notion that Disney uses ROFR to prop up owners' resale prices is simply a fantasy.
As annoying as resale can be, there is no way DVD would be able to move retail with a significant differential in cost. The economics would need to be compelling enough that buying, say CCV is worth that difference. Benefits factor into that equation, but price difference will be the most compelling driver.

I’m not sure if you’re suggesting DVD does not prop up prices, or if you’re saying DVD does not do it for the benefit of the owners (which I agree, they don’t). But closing that price gap is exactly what they need to do to keep from devaluing their product. And they do this by artificially driving up prices for resale, absent ROFR, I’m certain that a truly free market would not support current DVC resale prices.
 
Sorry, i was just asking for POV not stating that they do iuse ROFR’s to prop up resale prices. I have no idea. I was just curious if they would do it and asking the board

I also didn’t mean they would prop up resale prices for the benefit of owners.

That being said, if Disney has a brand new DVC property coming online (which seems like they will every two years) and Grand Floridian is tanking and can be had for 50% of current prices, it seems like there is a legit strategy on their part to prop up the prices of comparable resale properties (through ROFR) to make the direct purchases more attractive. I have no idea if they do this, but just saying its reasonable for them to manipulate the market to benefit their directly purchase revenue.
 
As annoying as resale can be, there is no way DVD would be able to move retail with a significant differential in cost. The economics would need to be compelling enough that buying, say CCV is worth that difference. Benefits factor into that equation, but price difference will be the most compelling driver.

I’m not sure if you’re suggesting DVD does not prop up prices, or if you’re saying DVD does not do it for the benefit of the owners (which I agree, they don’t). But closing that price gap is exactly what they need to do to keep from devaluing their product. And they do this by artificially driving up prices for resale, absent ROFR, I’m certain that a truly free market would not support cUrrent DVC resale prices.
There are ways to do so. You just have to create enough hassle, smoke & mirrors and real lost options to do so. Plus you have to change the sales approach. Even companies you can buy for pennies on the dollar can sell consistently at retail prices. Additional fees and the qualified vs non qualified will make a difference and the more aggressive it is the more difference it'll make. The fees on a Marriott Trust Points purchase can literally be half the cost but you do get a fully functional purchase. There are lots of things they can do they haven't done though some (not all) are different than their past philosophy. A VIP system is something they could add to the mix as well but at this "late date", I doubt they will. Don't let anyone tell you they can't though but there would be hurdles.
 

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