The Boat may have sailed, but I continue to let Member Services know....

I generally agree with everything you said, but ... in anything where there is limited resources, aren't you using a system at the expense of others to benefit yourself? Isn't that the case with dining reservations as well? There's only so many BOG dinner reservations so every seat I claim on a reservation is one that someone else can't claim. The difference there is that there's no wait list so it's first come first served, and if one suddenly opens up when you happen to be looking, you win!

(But I just realized, there's the canceled reservations threads here, where people can try to time their reservations to someone else's cancellations. Is that ok because people do it for "free" ?) I'm trying very hard to understand how using a loophole that is totally within the rules is unethical.

Here's another example - I have a much faster internet connection at work than at home, so I go in to work super early on my day (I'm not walking) and log in and I am going to get that AKV value studio before someone who has a slower connection from home. That's certainly using a resource that I have that others may not have, to book a room at the expense of someone else.

I am truly trying not to be argumentative for argument's sake; I'm really trying to understand how only one of these examples is unethical while the others are not. Seems (to me) that the distinction is that walking is the scapegoat for times when someone is online at 8am at the dot at the 11-mo window and doesn't get the room. But who here has actually been unable to book at 8am/11mo due to someone else walking?

Thank you very much!!!
My sentiments EXACTLY!!!!


Member Services Cast Members
TELL you HOW to walk!!!
They NEVER say that i am wasting their time

IN FACT,
i have Commended a few Member Services CMs to their Managers( had nothing to do with walking);
it went in their file;
Their Manager ALWAYS thanked me!


FYI,
Walkers don't wreck everything for everyone!;


Maybe because OF;
Maybe in spite OF,

I pieced together--
WiTHOUT ANY waitlist Folks!!!--

A 9-Night Stay in September 2018.
LESS THAN 11 months out.

For AKV Club Level
 
Thank you very much!!!
My sentiments EXACTLY!!!!


Member Services Cast Members
TELL you HOW to walk!!!
They NEVER say that i am wasting their time

IN FACT,
i have Commended a few Member Services CMs to their Managers( had nothing to do with walking);
it went in their file;
Their Manager ALWAYS thanked me!


FYI,
Walkers don't wreck everything for everyone!;


Maybe because OF;
Maybe in spite OF,

I pieced together--
WiTHOUT ANY waitlist Folks!!!--

A 9-Night Stay in September 2018.
LESS THAN 11 months out.

For AKV Club Level


Because dozens of Members are walking these days,

and many @ 2 months ahead of time,
i do NOT feel guilty about walking.
Period.
 
Totally agree with the statement in bold - I would also add that anything that reduces the liquidity/usability of the points will likely reduce the value of those points as well. So it is a tough balance.

I disagree with the part in pink though. Right now, walking seems to only affect those people at particular resorts who are trying to book at particular times (fall frenzy weekends), for particular room types. I took a look at availability right now from Nov 1-8, and there is probably a walk going on for:

BWV BW view studio
AKV value studio
AKV 1BR club level

That's it. Other things seem legitimately booked for the weekend or the week before (BLT std all sizes, BWV std studios, OKW nr hospitality house, VGF studios, CCV studios). But the vast majority of rooms are wide open. Demand isn't likely to go one way or the other for rooms at these resorts at 11 months as demand is limited to those with home resort advantage at 11 mo and these are all sold out (except CCV I guess - that I have no idea what is going on there, unless not all rooms are open yet). Demand WILL increase at 7 mo, however, because of all the new buyers (especially at Poly, who are likely only buying enough points for a studio without much cushion) who want to try a different resort. But walking doesn't work at 7 mo anyway.
BWV standard view studios/2BR are being walked. Maybe not as much as they were for Oct dates....but it is. And it's the studios which also affects the 2BR availability.
 
I think there was a thread here on 11/30 that that was a glitch not due to walking, because there was no way that on 11/30, 11/1 could be gone with 10/31 open. I think the thread was called "Member Services Exception" but I'm too lazy to look it up. But this was another case where "walkers" were blamed for something that wasn't walking. I think it was rooms being taken out of inventory for another reason.

Yes, sorry, I did not mean to make it sound like it was because of walking. It had to be something else. I was attempting to respond to the part of a post questioning whether or not rooms would show as unavailable beyond the 11 month booking mark. (Which they obviously do).
 


A quick read through the threads here and it's easy to see there are an awful lot of loopholes in the system that people use to their advantage. It's interesting how some are seen as perfectly acceptable and others are not. At least everyone has the same ability to walk a reservation. There are people who "got away with" something that other members did not. That is much more unfair than something we all have equal access to.
 
The only true fix is to address the cause and not the symptom. If DVC ever really addresses it, it will be with a fairly large reallocation away from Fall:

Something on the order of BWV standard studios costing 20-30 more points/week during Fall Frenzy. You’d have to increase the price of studios until it affects supply/demand. Enough so that you’d essentially make Spring/Summer the cheaper point seasons.

But my guess is that the people upset that they can’t get BWV standard studio during week 49 without competing for it don’t really want to pay 30 more points for it each year as a realistic fix.

This I think the certainly the best and most reasonable fix. The fact that the fall is called the "fall frenzy" shows that points are not appropriately allocated at this present time. There should be an equal demand for rooms all year long.
I would not be surprised to see a reallocation of points sometime in the near future. Current attendance and WDW is down during the past couple of summers, and I anecdotally believe it is up during the fall. They no longer need to drive DVC traffic towards coming during the fall months, and if that's where the headaches, a couple of points added per night should do enough to alleviate those problems without disrupting too much.
 
Because dozens of Members are walking these days,

and many @ 2 months ahead of time,
i do NOT feel guilty about walking.
Period.
No one should be upset with a member using it at present given the current setup, it's the way DVCMC is managing the system even though it was an unintended consequence. OTOH, no one should feel bad for them if it goes away even though that means some that are successful now won't then be and vice versa.

A quick read through the threads here and it's easy to see there are an awful lot of loopholes in the system that people use to their advantage. It's interesting how some are seen as perfectly acceptable and others are not. At least everyone has the same ability to walk a reservation. There are people who "got away with" something that other members did not. That is much more unfair than something we all have equal access to.
I don't think there are many loopholes but regardless 2 wrongs don't make a right. Two of my pet peeves about DVC and Disney in general is the inconsistency and lack of backbone, which often play out together. Often we see inappropriate compensation/return of points and others with the exact same situation that got less or nothing.

This I think the certainly the best and most reasonable fix. The fact that the fall is called the "fall frenzy" shows that points are not appropriately allocated at this present time. There should be an equal demand for rooms all year long.
I would not be surprised to see a reallocation of points sometime in the near future. Current attendance and WDW is down during the past couple of summers, and I anecdotally believe it is up during the fall. They no longer need to drive DVC traffic towards coming during the fall months, and if that's where the headaches, a couple of points added per night should do enough to alleviate those problems without disrupting too much.
I'm a big believer in DVCMC carrying out their contractual and fiduciary responsibility and reallocating where it's clearly needed. They should only do so with solid information that spreads across a wide area of resorts and years but IMO, they have often delayed for years past when they had sufficient knowledge and info that it was truly needed though less so the last decade than previously.

However, this won't help walking at all. The only thing that helps walking is to make it actually hurt to do so in terms of losing $$$ or points or simply making it not possible. A reallocation may decrease the demand but for the practice itself, that ship has sailed. It might mean some are not going to start that would have otherwise but I doubt anyone would stop that is already routinely using the method. IMO they should stop walking AND reallocate where necessary. When I look at these things I do so from a system and general standpoint, not how it affects me personally and I would discount an opinion that is based on the affect on that given person.
 


However, this won't help walking at all. The only thing that helps walking is to make it actually hurt to do so in terms of losing $$$ or points or simply making it not possible. A reallocation may decrease the demand but for the practice itself, that ship has sailed.

Yesterday I've booked at 7 months BCV and BWV standard was available. Clearly walking during the summer is useless because there is no such rush. People feel walking during fall is needed because it's such a bargain: (relatively) low points season, good weather, F&W, Halloween and Christmas decorations and parties. And you can have a room for 10 points a night, impossible to pass.
Now if instead the difference between standard and garden were half than it is now and overall rooms cost 20-50% more points, less people would compete for the same number of rooms and owners would be able to book within their advance booking months without the need to hurry.
Changing rules to avoid walking wouldn't resolve the stress of having to be online and press the button right at 8am. A reallocation would fix both issues.
 
Yesterday I've booked at 7 months BCV and BWV standard was available. Clearly walking during the summer is useless because there is no such rush. People feel walking during fall is needed because it's such a bargain: (relatively) low points season, good weather, F&W, Halloween and Christmas decorations and parties. And you can have a room for 10 points a night, impossible to pass.
Now if instead the difference between standard and garden were half than it is now and overall rooms cost 20-50% more points, less people would compete for the same number of rooms and owners would be able to book within their advance booking months without the need to hurry.
Changing rules to avoid walking wouldn't resolve the stress of having to be online and press the button right at 8am. A reallocation would fix both issues.
Mostly.

A reallocation isn’t going to fix the lack of studios at VGF and CCV. And AKV concierge and value.

They are going to be in high demand no matter what.

Reallocation can have a great impact on the demand side of the supply/demand curve (Fall Frenzy), but not so much when the problem is supply much more than demand.
 
Yesterday I've booked at 7 months BCV and BWV standard was available. Clearly walking during the summer is useless because there is no such rush. People feel walking during fall is needed because it's such a bargain: (relatively) low points season, good weather, F&W, Halloween and Christmas decorations and parties. And you can have a room for 10 points a night, impossible to pass.
Now if instead the difference between standard and garden were half than it is now and overall rooms cost 20-50% more points, less people would compete for the same number of rooms and owners would be able to book within their advance booking months without the need to hurry.
Changing rules to avoid walking wouldn't resolve the stress of having to be online and press the button right at 8am. A reallocation would fix both issues.
A reallocation won't fix the issue, it's unlikely those using it would stop even if the demand were evened out the only way to stop it is to simply stop it either by making it cost money or points or by making changes at that time not possible. In reality fixing walking will increase the stress for some as it should. Certainly a reallocation could do what it should do, even out demand somewhat but it also has other affects like making it where some don't have enough points to do what they've planned though that's the system they bought into.
 
A reallocation won't fix the issue, it's unlikely those using it would stop even if the demand were evened out the only way to stop it is to simply stop it either by making it cost money or points or by making changes at that time not possible. In reality fixing walking will increase the stress for some as it should. Certainly a reallocation could do what it should do, even out demand somewhat but it also has other affects like making it where some don't have enough points to do what they've planned though that's the system they bought into.

While a reallocation wouldn't entirely fix the issue, it would make it more tolerable for two reasons. People would not be as motivated to put the work into grabbing certain rooms, and others would not be so upset if those rooms were already taken.
Looking at the seasonal breakdown of points, things are too skewed in favor of the fall. It is seeming to lead to a lot of stress booking then. If it were more evened out to a longer period of time, more people would go "October is all sold out? Oh well, I'll just go next June for the same cost" as opposed to either being upset or scheming to walk it starting the following August.
 
I look at it like this, if someone wants to put in the time and effort of calling every morning, sometimes like what a month or so, they can have at it. It is just not something I would want to do. But to each their own.
 
While a reallocation wouldn't entirely fix the issue, it would make it more tolerable for two reasons. People would not be as motivated to put the work into grabbing certain rooms, and others would not be so upset if those rooms were already taken.
Looking at the seasonal breakdown of points, things are too skewed in favor of the fall. It is seeming to lead to a lot of stress booking then. If it were more evened out to a longer period of time, more people would go "October is all sold out? Oh well, I'll just go next June for the same cost" as opposed to either being upset or scheming to walk it starting the following August.
I don't think it would help at all other than it MIGHT entice less people to start doing it that weren't already. The only way to stop it is to either stop it or make it painful to do so.
 
A reallocation won't fix the issue, it's unlikely those using it would stop even if the demand were evened out the only way to stop it is to simply stop it either by making it cost money or points or by making changes at that time not possible. In reality fixing walking will increase the stress for some as it should. Certainly a reallocation could do what it should do, even out demand somewhat but it also has other affects like making it where some don't have enough points to do what they've planned though that's the system they bought into.

You use "should" a lot. As someone who books DVC mostly through RCI exchanges, you have this lack of flexibility, but this doesn't mean this should be true for us as well. As members who book using points, we value highly our possibility to modify reservations. That's one of the advantages of owning points rather than using RCI to trade in or rent.
Making the system much less flexible than CRO would devalue the system, causing points loss, stress, money loss (as it's not possible to adjust to flight pricing). This would also mean a loss in value of our contracts.
That's exactly why I'm against to taking actions against walking. It's not that I want to be able to use walking, I don't need it, I'm an informed member who will always know who to best use the system (putting me in advantage against other members who don't take the time and effort to inform themselves). I am afraid that suggestions like Dean's would cause more damage than benefits to the system.
 
A reallocation won't fix the issue, it's unlikely those using it would stop even if the demand were evened out the only way to stop it is to simply stop it either by making it cost money or points or by making changes at that time not possible. In reality fixing walking will increase the stress for some as it should. Certainly a reallocation could do what it should do, even out demand somewhat but it also has other affects like making it where some don't have enough points to do what they've planned though that's the system they bought into.

Now add the elimination of the 25 point add-on to a reallocation and you're really screwing members. They can no longer book where / when they bought for (even if they had a cushion) and have to add on 50 or more points to fix it.
 
You use "should" a lot. As someone who books DVC mostly through RCI exchanges, you have this lack of flexibility, but this doesn't mean this should be true for us as well. As members who book using points, we value highly our possibility to modify reservations. That's one of the advantages of owning points rather than using RCI to trade in or rent.
Making the system much less flexible than CRO would devalue the system, causing points loss, stress, money loss (as it's not possible to adjust to flight pricing). This would also mean a loss in value of our contracts.
That's exactly why I'm against to taking actions against walking. It's not that I want to be able to use walking, I don't need it, I'm an informed member who will always know who to best use the system (putting me in advantage against other members who don't take the time and effort to inform themselves). I am afraid that suggestions like Dean's would cause more damage than benefits to the system.
Fixing walking, even making each change a cancelation is completely within the rules as currently written. Each change will have winners and losers but it would all be within the system we bought into as written plus we all accepted the risk of changes as part of buying in whether we knew it or not. I think we'll see something to fix this within a couple of years.

Now add the elimination of the 25 point add-on to a reallocation and you're really screwing members. They can no longer book where / when they bought for (even if they had a cushion) and have to add on 50 or more points to fix it.
And they likely will, they already have for the newest resort. Again, the rules as they bought into knowing reallocation could and likely would occur. Any problems related to not enough points would be related to their choices previously.
 
Fixing walking, even making each change a cancelation is completely within the rules as currently written. Each change will have winners and losers but it would all be within the system we bought into as written plus we all accepted the risk of changes as part of buying in whether we knew it or not. I think we'll see something to fix this within a couple of years.

Fixing walking won't solve the underlying problem.
If there are 20 rooms and 200 members willing to book them at 11 months (made up numbers), only 10% of them will get them. There is no way around it.
Now a fraction of those 20 are walking, so people complain about walkers. But if walking is removed, people will complain about Disney servers crashing, about having a slow internet connection is unfair, about phone callers being at disadvantage (remember, online booking hasn't been always available) and so on.

People complain about walker because they're unhappy about not being able to get the room they want. If they change the rule, we'll still have 180 people unhappy. But the remaining 400.000 members will now loose their points or their reservation if they need to make a change. Make 400k people unhappy so that 180 people can still be unhappy but in a fairer way? How does it make sense?
 
Now add the elimination of the 25 point add-on to a reallocation and you're really screwing members. They can no longer book where / when they bought for (even if they had a cushion) and have to add on 50 or more points to fix it.

Unfortunately it already happened.
SSR Treehouses have been marketed specifically as "three bedrooms for the cost of a two bedroom". Then after the resort sold out, they were is such a high demand that Disney decided to reallocate points to make them more expensive. Interest on them dropped and they are rutinely available at 7 months for everyone to book.
The same could happen with some specialty categories or room type. I say this against my own interested: I only travel in studios, but there is the concrete possibility they reallocate 1bed and studios points to reduce the different between the two.

BTW, when they reallocated week days and week end points, they allowed add-ons well below the limit. I've seen a 8 points contract once, the logical explanation was that it was an exception allowed to grant the owner the possibility to continue to have the points for their usual vacation after the reallocation.
 
Fixing walking won't solve the underlying problem.
If there are 20 rooms and 200 members willing to book them at 11 months (made up numbers), only 10% of them will get them. There is no way around it.
Now a fraction of those 20 are walking, so people complain about walkers. But if walking is removed, people will complain about Disney servers crashing, about having a slow internet connection is unfair, about phone callers being at disadvantage (remember, online booking hasn't been always available) and so on.

People complain about walker because they're unhappy about not being able to get the room they want. If they change the rule, we'll still have 180 people unhappy. But the remaining 400.000 members will now loose their points or their reservation if they need to make a change. Make 400k people unhappy so that 180 people can still be unhappy but in a fairer way? How does it make sense?
There are 2 issues, demand and walking. reallocation should help with demand but likely won't walking. While it's true that someone will get those rooms, allowing walking is not a reasonable way to decide who does. Booking at the prescribed time is the only reasonable way to do so IMO. What walking does besides increasing management costs, is push those rooms to some other than those prepared to book at 11 months out when the reservation window opens IF they had a great wait list system, it wouldn't be as much of an issue obviously. Walking is really no different than a VIP reservation system in principle so I'm assuming that everyone who is in favor of walking would in favor of such a system.
 

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