The Running Thread - 2018

[kleph]

If all you run is hilly, then don't worry about keeping your pace consistent. It's just not gonna happen, and to be honest it's not really what you want over hills. The best approach (and this is by no means easy) is to try to keep your effort consistent. So you'll slow down up hill and speed up down hill, but you're trying to keep your breathing and heart rate about the same. And it's tough to get over how silly you feel taking what feels like little baby steps while going up hill. BuckeyeBama is right about trying to keep your cadence steady, and your stride should be kept on a sliding scale. Like I said, this is NOT EASY. But very beneficial.

a running coach once advised me to approach hills like a cyclist. if you watch the tour de france, you see all those guys going uphill but their legs move in a whir. they are using lower gears with less resistance to offset the impact of the incline. so when i attack hills i speed up my cadence but shorten my strides and make an effort to keep my feet as close to the ground as possible. yeah, it feels a little silly at first but i'll put up with that for the performance payoff.

 

[LdyStormy76]

I Run in New Balance 880s and they're pretty consistent with their wear and tear, and durability. I average 350 miles per pair. A couple of thoughts [actually questions] on the current tread issue. Have you changed the surface you are running on? Have you had any minor injuries that may have altered your gait, where you're favoring one side versus the other? Or, maybe you just got a bad pair?

Have had more outside miles (sidewalk/street/paved path) with pair 2 than pair 1. My training is almost all treadmill; with DH unemployed my shorter walks have been outside with him, hence the increase in outside miles. Have not hurt myself since 2016 (thankfully). My right knee can be problematic, and the shoe taking the beating is the right one, but not aware of my gait being off on the treadmill and DH hasn’t commented about it when we walk (and he would!).

 

[OldSlowGoofyGuy]

Previous discussions have touched on retiring shoes based on miles, tread or just knowing it is time. However, it seemed that people who are diehard fans of a specific shoe style typically get approximately the same amount of wear/miles before retiring a pair. Have you ever had a pair that needs to be retired sooner than you normally would have? Does this happen more frequently the longer you run, or is it typically a one off? Also, do you typically find that shoes are fine one day and the next you know they have to be retired?

I'm on my 16th pair of Ghosts. They have all gone 350+ miles, 450 on some. They never feel worn out to me, that's why I track mileage. Once I switch to a new pair, I can really tell the old pair was worn out.

I'm only asking because I've done it before: any chance you got them mixed up and the worn out shoe is really an old one? I have so many pairs floating around, I number them with a Sharpie to prevent mix-ups.

 

[LdyStormy76]

I'm only asking because I've done it before: any chance you got them mixed up and the worn out shoe is really an old one? I have so many pairs floating around, I number them with a Sharpie to prevent mix-ups.

How I wish that was it, but I use nail polish to mark them on the outside of the tongue. Have unmarked (which are retired), blue dots and red dots.

 

[avondale]

If you're going to be visiting Venango County in northwestern PA (and really, why would you be?), I wanted to advertise the multi-use trails there. I grew up in the area, but of course they didn't implement the rails-to-trails program until after I moved out of the area.

The Allegheny River and Samuel Justus Trails (https://www.avta-trails.org/allegheny-samuel-trails.html) and Sandy Creek Trail (https://www.avta-trails.org/sandy-creek-trail.html) have 32 and 12 miles of paved trail, respectively, that used to be railroad beds. The first trail runs along the Allegheny River through very lightly-developed areas, so it's quite scenic. The Sandy Creek Trail runs generally along Sandy Creek, but the creek is so curvy and the trail is straight, resulting in multiple scenic bridge crossings. The end of the Sandy Creek trail connects to the Allegheny River Trail roughly midway. (But, they are at very different elevations with connecting stairs, so be aware of this if biking.)

The area is not very populous, so the great part from my perspective is that the trails are so darn empty. During my Sunday morning run today of almost 90 minutes, I saw a whole dozen people. On another morning run on the Sandy Creek Trail, I saw no one in over an hour. The trails are generally in very good condition.

The bonus is that the trails go through three old train tunnels, which have been rebuilt but are all unlit. The Sandy Creek Trail goes through a straight, short (0.2-mi) tunnel that you can do without a flashlight (but I used my phone flashlight as a security blanket). The two trails on the Allegheny River Trail are significantly longer (one over 0.5 mi and one about 0.75 mi) and each one has a curve in the middle, so you don't get much light in them. They are positively freaky even with a flashlight. Take a friend for those.

 

[Bree]

Anyone have advice for visiting Atlanta??? What are some things to do besides aquarium, zoo and Coca Cola museum? Flying in Thursday night. DH has to work from hotel on Friday while I get my race bib. Half marathon Saturday morning. Flying home Sunday night. DH doesn’t drink and we like outdoor stuff. DH is a hobby photographer and just went to the botanical gardens a couple months ago.

 

[Dis_Yoda]

Anyone have advice for visiting Atlanta??? What are some things to do besides aquarium, zoo and Coca Cola museum? Flying in Thursday night. DH has to work from hotel on Friday while I get my race bib. Half marathon Saturday morning. Flying home Sunday night. DH doesn’t drink and we like outdoor stuff. DH is a hobby photographer and just went to the botanical gardens a couple months ago.

Old man in the mountain isn’t too far if you have a car. Another place I’ve been when I was really into photography was the southeast railroad museum which isn’t too far away. I’ll pm you my fb name and you can see some of those photos

 

[BuckeyeBama]

Anyone have advice for visiting Atlanta??? What are some things to do besides aquarium, zoo and Coca Cola museum? Flying in Thursday night. DH has to work from hotel on Friday while I get my race bib. Half marathon Saturday morning. Flying home Sunday night. DH doesn’t drink and we like outdoor stuff. DH is a hobby photographer and just went to the botanical gardens a couple months ago.

SEC Media Days happening this week in Atlanta.

Roll Tide!!!

 

[OldSlowGoofyGuy]

Anyone have advice for visiting Atlanta???

Not outside, but Ponce City Market and absolutely-positively get the guided tour of the Fox Theater. Or better yet, get the tour AND see a concert/show at the Fabulous Fox.

Also check out the Atlanta History Center website. I believe they have a multiple destination deal available, so some outside, some inside. We've done it and been happy.

Just so you're prepared: Atlanta = Heat, hills, and humidity. The Atlanta/Publix marathon is the only marathon I've run where people (me included) were actively cursing the course.

 

[FFigawi]

Anyone have advice for visiting Atlanta??? What are some things to do besides aquarium, zoo and Coca Cola museum? Flying in Thursday night. DH has to work from hotel on Friday while I get my race bib. Half marathon Saturday morning. Flying home Sunday night. DH doesn’t drink and we like outdoor stuff. DH is a hobby photographer and just went to the botanical gardens a couple months ago.

Paging @tigger536 to the white courtesy phone

 

[Keels]

Paging @tigger536 to the white courtesy phone

Yup! Jacque knows all the badass places to check out!

 

[Capang]

Hey @LSUlakes , for upcoming races, I'll be doing the Castaway Cay 5k on 7/24. Does that count

See you there!

 

[Baloo in MI]

Took me two hours to catch up.

@roxymama I am so sorry for your loss!


Here are my responses to the last four QOTD:

- Running clothes: I keep them, vinegar works like a charm.
- Running shoes when not running: My shoes go from running and only running to being phased out and become walk around shoes or lawn shoes and I donate the rest.
- Marathon Weekend plans: Not sure, I want to say I am signing up but trying to figure out the ankle injury. Unfortunately it roared back during vacation. I have been back to the specialist and now have a second MRI from which I hope the doctor has an answer and plan. But it likely will include surgery. If so I am not yet sure what this will mean on recovery time and if I could be ready in time... For now I am leaning towards planting my flag in the sand, so to speak, and saying I will be healed and ready to run for January! But I will likely wait to see what comes of the MRI, response and recovery. Do you think it is safe to wait on Dopey past Thursday?
- @LSUlakes hope you had a great trip!

 

[Waiting2goback]

Took me two hours to catch up.

@roxymama I am so sorry for your loss!


Here are my responses to the last four QOTD:

- Running clothes: I keep them, vinegar works like a charm.
- Running shoes when not running: My shoes go from running and only running to being phased out and become walk around shoes or lawn shoes and I donate the rest.
- Marathon Weekend plans: Not sure, I want to say I am signing up but trying to figure out the ankle injury. Unfortunately it roared back during vacation. I have been back to the specialist and now have a second MRI from which I hope the doctor has an answer and plan. But it likely will include surgery. If so I am not yet sure what this will mean on recovery time and if I could be ready in time... For now I am leaning towards planting my flag in the sand, so to speak, and saying I will be healed and ready to run for January! But I will likely wait to see what comes of the MRI, response and recovery. Do you think it is safe to wait on Dopey past Thursday?
- @LSUlakes hope you had a great trip!

My ankle surgery took 6 months before I was even cleared to start running again. When I did, it didn't go well at first. If you are having an ongoing problem and will result in surgery I wouldn't plan on being recovered and trained for marathon weekend.

 

[Waiting2goback]

So true. Any time I am worried about something I say, "If I can run a marathon I can do this!"

 

[Bree]

Old man in the mountain isn’t too far if you have a car. Another place I’ve been when I was really into photography was the southeast railroad museum which isn’t too far away. I’ll pm you my fb name and you can see some of those photos

Thanks! Those places sound good!

Not outside, but Ponce City Market and absolutely-positively get the guided tour of the Fox Theater. Or better yet, get the tour AND see a concert/show at the Fabulous Fox.

Also check out the Atlanta History Center website. I believe they have a multiple destination deal available, so some outside, some inside. We've done it and been happy.

Just so you're prepared: Atlanta = Heat, hills, and humidity. The Atlanta/Publix marathon is the only marathon I've run where people (me included) were actively cursing the course.

Thanks! I’ll check those places out online.

I watched a video of the course yesterday. The hills in miles 9-11 don’t look like a whole lot of fun. I live in flat Florida!

 

[TheHamm]

Don't target a pace, looking at your watch. Instead target a run cadence and pick music with that cadence to help you stay on track. For instance, you might try taking 160 steps per minute to start (170-190 is the sweet spot for most runners). Let your left foot strike the ground for each count. After a while the cadence will become natural and you will not have to think about it. When you are ready, pick songs with a faster cadence, but as you grow stronger you will get faster at any cadence as your stride length will increase.

Targeted pacing has been of great benefit to my running and progress as a runner. I have found the best way to keep my pacing on target and in check is to set my Garmin to auto-lap every 0.25 mi. I know what my time for each quarter mile should be and can then adjust my pace up or down until I have it calibrated in. By checking each quarter mile, I'm able to adjust before too much time/distance has passed. Over time you'll get used to how a given pace feels and will start to settle into it naturally, making smaller and smaller adjustments to keep on pace as time goes by.

If all you run is hilly, then don't worry about keeping your pace consistent. It's just not gonna happen, and to be honest it's not really what you want over hills. The best approach (and this is by no means easy) is to try to keep your effort consistent. So you'll slow down up hill and speed up down hill, but you're trying to keep your breathing and heart rate about the same. And it's tough to get over how silly you feel taking what feels like little baby steps while going up hill. BuckeyeBama is right about trying to keep your cadence steady, and your stride should be kept on a sliding scale. Like I said, this is NOT EASY. But very beneficial.

Now, if you want to spend the money and are willing to do some serious reading/research, there is technology to help with this: power meters. I have the Stryd foot pod, and I'm still learning to use it. What these do is translate your effort into a value measured in watts. It's similar to monitoring your heart rate, but it's a more immediate measurement, while your heart rate lags behind changes in effort. The basic idea is to help you maintain a consistent effort, which is more important than a consistent pace. But, like I said, still not easy. I also run in a hilly neighborhood, and if I want flat (or flatter) I have a nearby park I go to.

Seems like you've gotten some great advice thus far. I'll throw in my two cents. When I train on certain days, I have a pace goal. I then modify the goal based on the conditions outside (usually T+D). Then, depending on the type of run, I give myself a window to hit. The faster the pace relatively speaking (like 5k pace vs easy pace) the bigger the window:

LR = +/-10 sec
M Tempo = +/- 10 sec
HM Tempo = +/- 10 sec
LT = +/- 5 sec
10k = +/- 5 sec
5k = +/- 5 sec
3k = +/- 3 sec
Mile = +/- 1 sec

So for example, my run on 6/28 was a 2 x 6 mile at M Tempo. Based on the temps, the pace should have been a 6:48 (GP) + 10 sec (for the first half of the training plan to be slower) + TD adjustment (1.5%-3%) = 7:04-7:11 goal pace.

View attachment 336751

The pace itself varied over the course of the run from a 6:45 to 7:25 min/mile (the first two miles are a WU). So while the goal was "consistent" pacing, the reality is there was some ebb and flow to it based on a myriad of factors (turns, elevation, etc.). These were the splits, Grade Adjusted Pace, and elevation.

View attachment 336750

So while the pace is more variable on the small scale, taking into account the actual running, the pace itself is rather even. Still varies from 6:57 to 7:13 with a pace window of 6:54 to 7:14 (with a pace goal of 7:04), then everything still falls into window. A nice feature on Strava is the "Grade Adjusted Pace" which attempts to take into account varied elevation in the route. So with the "Mile 6" not withstanding, you can see my GAP was pretty tight at 7:01-7:04. This is the case because while my actual pace wasn't as consistent when running up/down hills, my effort was. While I have a pace targeted goal on most every run I do, I still trust my effort during the actual run.

In general, my route averages about 35 feet per mile of gained elevation (my old neighborhood was about 50 feet per mile). I've found that training by effort and pace is still accomplishable even with a normal hilly route.

From a quick google, it would appear an Apple Watch "flight of stairs" is around 10 feet elevation gained. So at 10 flights, you're looking at an elevation gain of 100 feet. So that would be about 2 miles on my old route, and 3 miles on my new route for a comparison.

I second this if you are doing hills or trails. You can also use heart rate and pick a window to stay in if your terrain is not even. I'd invest in either a watch with a build in optical sensor or, and this is more accurate, a check sensor and set your watch fields to include the heart rate. If you spike on a hill slow down, even to a walk if it is really steep, and try to maintain an even rate. It is a different approach than cadence but also easier if the hills are significant. I have a different cadence running uphill vs down personally.

a running coach once advised me to approach hills like a cyclist. if you watch the tour de france, you see all those guys going uphill but their legs move in a whir. they are using lower gears with less resistance to offset the impact of the incline. so when i attack hills i speed up my cadence but shorten my strides and make an effort to keep my feet as close to the ground as possible. yeah, it feels a little silly at first but i'll put up with that for the performance payoff.

I appreciate all the advice! will keep the music for pacing in mind for when the weather is bearable for noon running on a track. I'm too paranoid to run in an uncontrolled environment with headphones. I recently acquired a garmin and I am hopeful it will help me. I can see the cadence afterward, and it is slower than I see recommend (closer to 160 on average not 180s), I have not figured out if it is possible to make cadence display on the watch face, but I will be looking to do this! To DopeyBadger's point, my mile times are relatively consistent, but within a mile I have a 2 minute spread. I have yet to figure out how to set a lap, but I have mentally felt better seeing this mostly consistent time with the default setting of every mile, so the suggestion of a smaller interval is appealing. I have been keen to notice that my point of feeling uncomfortable tracks when my HR says it is above 150, but I feel fine if I can keep it at or below, both of which Garmin says is on the low end of zone 4, and that I should be lower. I am not interested in purchasing or running in a chest strap, but I am curious as to how well the optical sensor is- can it really tell that I am not at 148 (zone 3)? I also imagine HR is a lagging indicator, so I while I can see value in telling me to not get up the hill as fast as I can next time, I am not sure I could adjust on the fly? I have lots of 20' up and down hills like a wave field, so I will have an opportunity to try it out later this week!

Again, I appreciate all the advice. Now if I could just figure out how not to hate T+D=150 at 5am....

 

[DopeyBadger]

I can see the cadence afterward, and it is slower than I see recommend (closer to 160 on average not 180s), I have not figured out if it is possible to make cadence display on the watch face, but I will be looking to do this!

Keep in mind that cadence and stride length are a function of pace. So someone running on the slower end of the spectrum will find their cadence below that 180 number (from Daniels assessment of 1984 Olympic runners who were around 180 spm or more, some were 180 and others 190, 200, etc). Doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong necessarily. Just keep the footfall underneath you. Which means it could be a heel strike, fore strike, or mid-strike. I find it more important that the foot fall underneath your body so that the force of the footfall be more evenly distributed. Keep the steps quick and light.

Cadence, Stride Length, Gait and Pace: The Great Debate



https://www.scienceofrunning.com/2011/02/180-isnt-magic-number-stride-rate-and.html?v=7516fd43adaa

I have been keen to notice that my point of feeling uncomfortable tracks when my HR says it is above 150, but I feel fine if I can keep it at or below, both of which Garmin says is on the low end of zone 4, and that I should be lower.

Since the Garmin is new, make sure you have the HR zones setup appropriately so you're getting an accurate picture for yourself. I prefer the HRR method which Garmin supports using the Garmin Connect web interface.

 

[tigger536]

Anyone have advice for visiting Atlanta??? What are some things to do besides aquarium, zoo and Coca Cola museum? Flying in Thursday night. DH has to work from hotel on Friday while I get my race bib. Half marathon Saturday morning. Flying home Sunday night. DH doesn’t drink and we like outdoor stuff. DH is a hobby photographer and just went to the botanical gardens a couple months ago.

Hi! What race are you doing? I second the suggestions @OldSlowGoofyGuy made. Plus, at Ponce City market, check out 9 mile station - its on the roof. There is a restaurant up there (and its pretty good), and carnival games and putt putt. The bars up there have frose (you didn't say YOU don't drink, lol). The views of the city are great up there. Walk the Beltline before or after - PCM is right on the Beltline. More shopping and dining here, and its a great place to run. Virginia Highlands is a great neighborhood to check out for shopping and dining(this neighborhood is very close to Piedmont Park/ Botanical Gardens). I would make a nice dinner reservation too. Some of my favorites are Gunshow (Kevin Gillespie of top chef fame) and The Optimist (seafood). I could go on and on about restaurants, so message me if you want more. While you are checking out the Botanical Gardens, which I highly recommend, walk around in Piedmont Park (its next to the gardens). Its our version of central park, its huge. If you want some really good shopping, check out Lenox Mall and Phipps Plaza (they are across the street from each other, in Buckhead). You'll find every store you can think of and some you didn't (and all the designer stuff).

Altanta is very hot, hilly and humid, so keep this in mind for your race. Enjoy our city!

 

[kleph]

Anyone have advice for visiting Atlanta??? What are some things to do besides aquarium, zoo and Coca Cola museum? Flying in Thursday night. DH has to work from hotel on Friday while I get my race bib. Half marathon Saturday morning. Flying home Sunday night. DH doesn’t drink and we like outdoor stuff. DH is a hobby photographer and just went to the botanical gardens a couple months ago.

SEC Media Days happening this week in Atlanta.

Roll Tide!!!

which reminds me, the stadium is quite nice.