Trading Pins from Ebay

[dapoteete]

I just bought a lot of 15 then a lot of 40 and should have realized that they could be too good to be true. These are the last two sellers I bought lots from. nannub and dzneypins. Anyone have anything to say about them.

 

[pixiewings71]

I just bought a lot of 15 then a lot of 40 and should have realized that they could be too good to be true. These are the last two sellers I bought lots from. nannub and dzneypins. Anyone have anything to say about them.

nannub is a trader who gets newbies to purchase good LE's from the stores which he then trades for scrappers, he also trades scrappers to CMs to get the good pins to sell on eBay, we do not recommend him for that reason. dzneypins I have no direct knowledge of.

 

[MountNittany]

I ordered a lot of 20 from Ebay from funmamas that came today. I looked each one up on PinPics and atleast 2/3 of them said there are possible scrappers and I found 4 that are definitely scrappers. Now she (I'm assuming it's a she) did send 7 Chip & Dale pins because I sent her a note that I collected them. It doesn't really matter to me that 2 of the Chip & Dales are scrappers because I won't be trading them anyway.

red or orange?

 

[dapoteete]

nannub is a trader who gets newbies to purchase good LE's from the stores which he then trades for scrappers, he also trades scrappers to CMs to get the good pins to sell on eBay, we do not recommend him for that reason. dzneypins I have no direct knowledge of.

Thank you for the info. I looked at my pins and can not tell if they are scrappers, but most look and feel like real pins. Thanks again, and I will not be buying from him again.

 

[pixiewings71]

Thank you for the info. I looked at my pins and can not tell if they are scrappers, but most look and feel like real pins. Thanks again, and I will not be buying from him again.

I'm sure most, if not all, are real. I purchased from him before finding out how he gets his great pins.....He really has some great stuff, I just won't buy from him now.

 

[DisneyTreasurePins]

Its been a while since I had a Pick your own lot but its there now.My ebay name is MickeysTreasure If you have any questions give me a email through ebay.

Chris

 

[jackskellingtonsgirl]

As I have said before, we are completely finished with eBay pins.

But I do have some remarks about the pins we got in August. We were at WDW Aug. 1-15, but we only brought our lanyards to the parks some of the days.

Scrappers:
Hidden Mickey "Alphabet" pins - T, L, F, U, C, D, I, R, W, S. These have a much more matte finish, the font looks weird on the back stamp.
Hidden Mickey "Blue Square" - Mickey
Hidden Mickey - this was an older set, released last year, I think - it is the little alien guy who is one of Stitch's friends.
Haunted Mansion casket, LE 500 that came in a box set.
We got a couple of others that I am iffy about, but the ones listed above I know FOR SURE are scrappers/counterfeits.

In the past we have traded upwards of 40 pins per day. This year we only brought about 150 traders total with us, and we brought about half of the traders back home.

 

[MountNittany]

As I have said before, we are completely finished with eBay pins.

But I do have some remarks about the pins we got in August. We were at WDW Aug. 1-15, but we only brought our lanyards to the parks some of the days.

Scrappers:
Hidden Mickey "Alphabet" pins - T, L, F, U, C, D, I, R, W, S. These have a much more matte finish, the font looks weird on the back stamp.
Hidden Mickey "Blue Square" - Mickey
Hidden Mickey - this was an older set, released last year, I think - it is the little alien guy who is one of Stitch's friends.
Haunted Mansion casket, LE 500 that came in a box set.
We got a couple of others that I am iffy about, but the ones listed above I know FOR SURE are scrappers/counterfeits.

In the past we have traded upwards of 40 pins per day. This year we only brought about 150 traders total with us, and we brought about half of the traders back home.

Thank you for the info

 

[Deesknee]

I feel like I just found out the characters aren't real. DS (almost 19) loves to collect disney pins. He hates trading them. He buys a pin because it has some meaning to him. So I bought him a "grab" bag of 20 to trade, in case he sees one on a cm that means something to him. He was SO excited. Now i hve to tell him this. I also sent a "grab" bag to my niece as a bday gift. I feel like such a fool.

Well, at least I know now. I don't know for sure the ones I purchased are fakes, but they were "grab" bag pins. I just figured they were either cm's, discontinued ore something like that. I never occured to me they were fakes. When I read the discriptions bragging no euro pins, things like that I just figured they weren't made as well. I guess I am naive.

Thank you all for the valueable lesson.

 

[addicted2dizney]

I personally don't care if some I trade or trade for are scrappers.. If I like the pin I get it. My kids specifically trade for certain themes/characters so it can be a challenge to find the ones they like. Our collection is for our own personal enjoyment and if I trade a 1.50 ish scrapper for another 1.50ish scrapper it's fine with me. The bottom line is that these cheaper pins create a lot of interest in pin collecting/trading and rarely does anyone leave the parks without buying a few "real" $10+ pins from the kiosks. Anyone out there who really knows or cares about the differences knows what to look and the casual collectors can just have some fun with them. If you get a pin you don't like or think the color is off.. just trade it back. That's how you got it to begin with.

 

[shalom]

The bottom line is that these cheaper pins create a lot of interest in pin collecting/trading and rarely does anyone leave the parks without buying a few "real" $10+ pins from the kiosks.

While I would not knowingly buy from a scrapper, I'd hazard a guess that this is precisely Disney's philosophy, and may explain why they aren't coming down on many people labeled scrappers.

Here's the thing. Hubby has been buying and reselling collectibles of different kinds since the 1970's, and the fact is, most collectibles drop in price. I've seen people argue that anyone reselling pins for under $2 when they cost $6 to $8 new is most likely a scrapper, and that simply doesn't follow with any collectible I know. Most collectibles fall in value. Many collectibles follow a boom and bust pattern, and it's very common for stores that sell collectibles to end up selling a fair percentage of their stock at prices considerably lower than they paid wholesale, because they have to move the stock to make space for new stuff that might actually earn them a profit. The fact that something sells for considerably less than the original wholesale price does not, by itself, indicate a scrapper.

I've also seen it argued (I think in this thread, but I've read a ton of stuff the last few days so I'm not sure), that various pins "should" be relatively rare, because they were only available if you could find them on a CM and trade for them. But did Disney ever say that all the pins that were never sold on cards but were only available (initially) by trading for them on a CM's lanyard were in some sense a limited edition? In other words, were these pins actually rare, or was there just a perception of rarity because you couldn't buy them direct? Because the ideal situation for Disney, as the seller, is to create the image that something's rare, while actually having enough product on hand to satisfy every customer who wants it.

No doubt for a time there were some pins on CM's lanyards that were truly rare - that's certainly how I would have set it up. But if Disney never said that the CM-only pins were runs limited to number x, then odds are good that most of the pins on a CM's lanyard come from enormous official runs, and most of the time the perception of rarity is artificial, in the sense that they're not wearing many of that pin within the parks at any one time, but the pins are available from CMs for weeks.

Do I believe there are scrappers and cheap knock offs out there? Yes. Would I buy a large lot of pins for a dollar or two per pin? No. But do I think that most pins offered on e-bay outside those lots are most likely scrappers if they're selling for under $2? Also no. And I don't believe that Disney's just sitting back and letting scrappers in China do as they please, either. But I also don't think Disney's going to ever do enough to please some people, because I don't believe the scrapper problem is as big as a lot of people seem to think.

With very rare exceptions, collectibles are like new cars. As soon as you drive a new car off the lot, it loses a LARGE percentage of its value. Even if you just bought it yesterday, you are just not going to be able to sell it for what you bought it for. And when you're talking Disney pins, which are cranked out in enormous numbers with I would guess hundreds to choose from, very, very few pins are going to hold their value, and that includes Limited Edition pins and other pins that were very hard to get initially. The only time Limited Edition matters is if there Edition is Limited to a smaller number of people who want it.

A lot of collectibles tend to go through a surge of interest where a lot of people get really excited about them and buy gazillions of them - but a fair percentage of those people lose interest, move on to another collectible, and decide to sell their collection. Once you get enough people into that "I need more space for something new" phase, resale prices tank, which kills the interest of people who are just interested in things that seem to be gaining in value. In the long run, you end up with people who appreciate the collectible for what it is, and their interest is a lot more unpredictable. Which is why a lot of people I know who habitually collected "Limited Edition" this or that eventually dumped the whole collection at a garage sale - the collectors had moved on, and they'd bought the thing in the first place hoping to resell it.

Buy what you love at a reasonable price. Don't pass on broken or poorly made pins. Do your best to avoid the guys on ebay that you believe are counterfeit. Be as honest as you can, but unless you've got evidence they're counterfeit, don't worry much about pins that are high enough quality nobody can tell the difference anyhow. Tell ebay and Disney if you think you've been taken. Let Disney worry about the rest - they're the most qualified to truly know when there's a problem anyhow.

And enjoy your collection!

 

[thelionqueen]

While I would not knowingly buy from a scrapper, I'd hazard a guess that this is precisely Disney's philosophy, and may explain why they aren't coming down on many people labeled scrappers.

Here's the thing. Hubby has been buying and reselling collectibles of different kinds since the 1970's, and the fact is, most collectibles drop in price. I've seen people argue that anyone reselling pins for under $2 when they cost $6 to $8 new is most likely a scrapper, and that simply doesn't follow with any collectible I know. Most collectibles fall in value. Many collectibles follow a boom and bust pattern, and it's very common for stores that sell collectibles to end up selling a fair percentage of their stock at prices considerably lower than they paid wholesale, because they have to move the stock to make space for new stuff that might actually earn them a profit. The fact that something sells for considerably less than the original wholesale price does not, by itself, indicate a scrapper.

I've also seen it argued (I think in this thread, but I've read a ton of stuff the last few days so I'm not sure), that various pins "should" be relatively rare, because they were only available if you could find them on a CM and trade for them. But did Disney ever say that all the pins that were never sold on cards but were only available (initially) by trading for them on a CM's lanyard were in some sense a limited edition? In other words, were these pins actually rare, or was there just a perception of rarity because you couldn't buy them direct? Because the ideal situation for Disney, as the seller, is to create the image that something's rare, while actually having enough product on hand to satisfy every customer who wants it.

No doubt for a time there were some pins on CM's lanyards that were truly rare - that's certainly how I would have set it up. But if Disney never said that the CM-only pins were runs limited to number x, then odds are good that most of the pins on a CM's lanyard come from enormous official runs, and most of the time the perception of rarity is artificial, in the sense that they're not wearing many of that pin within the parks at any one time, but the pins are available from CMs for weeks.

Do I believe there are scrappers and cheap knock offs out there? Yes. Would I buy a large lot of pins for a dollar or two per pin? No. But do I think that most pins offered on e-bay outside those lots are most likely scrappers if they're selling for under $2? Also no. And I don't believe that Disney's just sitting back and letting scrappers in China do as they please, either. But I also don't think Disney's going to ever do enough to please some people, because I don't believe the scrapper problem is as big as a lot of people seem to think.

With very rare exceptions, collectibles are like new cars. As soon as you drive a new car off the lot, it loses a LARGE percentage of its value. Even if you just bought it yesterday, you are just not going to be able to sell it for what you bought it for. And when you're talking Disney pins, which are cranked out in enormous numbers with I would guess hundreds to choose from, very, very few pins are going to hold their value, and that includes Limited Edition pins and other pins that were very hard to get initially. The only time Limited Edition matters is if there Edition is Limited to a smaller number of people who want it.

A lot of collectibles tend to go through a surge of interest where a lot of people get really excited about them and buy gazillions of them - but a fair percentage of those people lose interest, move on to another collectible, and decide to sell their collection. Once you get enough people into that "I need more space for something new" phase, resale prices tank, which kills the interest of people who are just interested in things that seem to be gaining in value. In the long run, you end up with people who appreciate the collectible for what it is, and their interest is a lot more unpredictable. Which is why a lot of people I know who habitually collected "Limited Edition" this or that eventually dumped the whole collection at a garage sale - the collectors had moved on, and they'd bought the thing in the first place hoping to resell it.

Buy what you love at a reasonable price. Don't pass on broken or poorly made pins. Do your best to avoid the guys on ebay that you believe are counterfeit. Be as honest as you can, but unless you've got evidence they're counterfeit, don't worry much about pins that are high enough quality nobody can tell the difference anyhow. Tell ebay and Disney if you think you've been taken. Let Disney worry about the rest - they're the most qualified to truly know when there's a problem anyhow.

And enjoy your collection!

I understand and appreciate the comments you posted here, thank you for your insight!
I do want to point out that no one on this thread is indicating that ANY pin that is sold for under $2 is a scrapper. What we ARE saying is that when you are buying these pins in huge lots with multiple duplicates for under a buck to $2 a pin they are fake. Is there a VERY RARE exception to this rule? Likely, although I have yet to see or hear of one.

I totally agree with you that collectibles in all arenas go down in value, that is a given and maybe even moreso with Disney pins as they are so expensive to begin with. However, that is not what the debate or question is on this thread (or in general IMO) to the scrapper nightmare. AUTHENTIC collectibles going down in value is one thing, hundreds of thousands and fake pins made in China and infiltrating the pin trading community is quite another; that is the issue we are tackling here.

As far as letting Disney handle this problem, you are right on the money with the expertise and resources they have to do something about it. But, as with all HUGE multi-national companies and the law, there are limits to what they can and cannot do.

They have been battling this epidemic for at LEAST 3 years that I know of with little effect (if any) of scrapper selling on ebay. The difference I have seen as of late, is that there are less scrappers on CM's lanyards. That is something that I believe Disney had the power to control more quickly than international trading laws, and did.

I must disagree with one point you made which is you believe this problem is not as big as "we" think it is. Actually, I believe it is at least as big as we perceive and going to get even bigger the longer it takes Disney to reign in these illegal producers and ebay sellers of scrappers. Many of us visit Disney several times a year and have been pin trading since day 1 (myself included) and know exactly, first hand, the impact it has on the hobby we love. This is something that Disney exec's have no idea about, but we (those of us involved in the actual face-to-face pin trading interaction) do. That is why we are educating people, many of whom don't know any better, as to what this issue is.

As far as Disney manufacturing CM (hidden mickey) pins, they are manufactured SOLELY for the Disney company and are distributed by supervisors and managers directly to CM's specifically for trading. There are no edition sizes on these pins; most learn of their rarity (or availability) months after release.

I guess to sum up my opinion is that I agree with you on the lessening value of collectibles. However, that issue is not at all what we are debating or questioning in regards to the issue of scrapper sellers and trading. If you like a pin, trade for it, I agree. But for those who invest thousands of dollars into this hobby to trade their QUALITY (not collectible or expensive, but quality) pins for cheap imitations by those who paid pennies for them and who are illegally making money of trademark infractations is just very annoying. At least that is my take. Many others on the boards and this thread may or may not agree, but that is my opinion.

 

[shalom]

I must disagree with one point you made which is you believe this problem is not as big as "we" think it is.

Well, define "we." I may be exaggerating in saying the problem isn't as big as a "lot" of people think, but OTOH in researching specific pins I've often run across someone insisting that the pin in question is being sold by scrappers, because of this, that or the other, and then someone else saying the pin they bought direct from Disney has that date or that quirk to it. Any pin that isn't a limited edition may have gone through more than one printing, and the different printings may have different quirks, so saying a pin "must" be a scrapper because it's subtly different from one you bought at the parks is too strong a statement for me. But there I've run across a number of people on the Internet making it - enough people to seem like a "lot" of people to me. (Again, not referring to this thread in particular.)

Disney has a long history of taking on counterfeiters and being very protective of their name, so part of the reason I'm skeptical is the number of people I've seen say it's a huge problem, but Disney isn't doing anything. Disney is doing something, bet money, and the fact that they didn't come down on a particular ebay seller someone on the Internet has labeled a scrapper makes me suspect that it may be the accuser who got it wrong. The exception is the guys like nannub, who're canny enough not to sell the counterfeit pins directly - going on what little I know of the law, those guys really can be a challenge for Disney to take down on ebay (although Disney can still do things to cut off their source).

But the people accused of being scrappers because they have too many of one pin, or sell too many of the same kind of pins, or sell too cheaply... maybe so, maybe not. Disney knows what pins have gone to the outlet stores, we don't. If the seller's been around selling Disney pins for a while, and Disney hasn't come down on them, odds are the seller isn't knowingly dishonest. The exception being sellers like nannub, but those sellers usually trade their counterfeit pins for the best they can get, skim out the good stuff, and dump the rest in batches, so people like myself who buy one pin at a time and have no particular interest in rarities don't often end up interacting with them.

I'm going to continue to research pins I want because I'm anal like that, and I buy for myself rather than for trading anyhow (DD thought trading sounded cool, and we're hitting WDW in April, which is why I've been reading up on it like a fiend lately). But I just hate to think that people are telling their kids they can't collect or trade because they think it's impossible to do it honestly. China may not enforce copyright laws, but the US does, and so does ebay. So I'd like to tell people to be aware and care, but don't be afraid to trade.

 

[thelionqueen]

Well, define "we." I may be exaggerating in saying the problem isn't as big as a "lot" of people think, but OTOH in researching specific pins I've often run across someone insisting that the pin in question is being sold by scrappers, because of this, that or the other, and then someone else saying the pin they bought direct from Disney has that date or that quirk to it. Any pin that isn't a limited edition may have gone through more than one printing, and the different printings may have different quirks, so saying a pin "must" be a scrapper because it's subtly different from one you bought at the parks is too strong a statement for me. But there I've run across a number of people on the Internet making it - enough people to seem like a "lot" of people to me. (Again, not referring to this thread in particular.)

Disney has a long history of taking on counterfeiters and being very protective of their name, so part of the reason I'm skeptical is the number of people I've seen say it's a huge problem, but Disney isn't doing anything. Disney is doing something, bet money, and the fact that they didn't come down on a particular ebay seller someone on the Internet has labeled a scrapper makes me suspect that it may be the accuser who got it wrong. The exception is the guys like nannub, who're canny enough not to sell the counterfeit pins directly - going on what little I know of the law, those guys really can be a challenge for Disney to take down on ebay (although Disney can still do things to cut off their source).

But the people accused of being scrappers because they have too many of one pin, or sell too many of the same kind of pins, or sell too cheaply... maybe so, maybe not. Disney knows what pins have gone to the outlet stores, we don't. If the seller's been around selling Disney pins for a while, and Disney hasn't come down on them, odds are the seller isn't knowingly dishonest. The exception being sellers like nannub, but those sellers usually trade their counterfeit pins for the best they can get, skim out the good stuff, and dump the rest in batches, so people like myself who buy one pin at a time and have no particular interest in rarities don't often end up interacting with them.

I'm going to continue to research pins I want because I'm anal like that, and I buy for myself rather than for trading anyhow (DD thought trading sounded cool, and we're hitting WDW in April, which is why I've been reading up on it like a fiend lately). But I just hate to think that people are telling their kids they can't collect or trade because they think it's impossible to do it honestly. China may not enforce copyright laws, but the US does, and so does ebay. So I'd like to tell people to be aware and care, but don't be afraid to trade.

I totally agree with your last statement! I don't think people should give up on trading all together, but it certainly does make it less entertaining for me anyway.

I want to clarify one of the statements you made. I don't think anyone has any absolute information other than their personal experience. So I can say, at least for myself and some others on this thread, that no one indicated that a pin with subtle differences "must" be a scrapper. On the contrary, I've stated over and over, "in my opinion" or something along those lines. However, In General, there are indications that a pin is "likely" a scrapper. These indications, our experiences and postings are not exact science, and I personally cannot guarantee my opinion or insight, but, the "if it walks like a duck" theory is usually correct

As far as Disney taking on counterfeiters, you are correct. They fiercely defend their brand in almost all areas. I have personally talked to Disney legal on more than one occasion regarding this issue. And though they are very vague as to what they are doing to combat the problem, I was able to surmise some of the roadblocks.

I think many are overlooking what an incredibly difficult task this is. First they need to find the distributors in China-this alone is a nearly impossible task. If (and I emphasize IF) they were to find these distributors, then they have to tackle international laws and start there.

If you took the step above TOTALLY out of the equation, and they focused their efforts solely on stopping scrapper sellers, that is again a nearly impossible task. First they would need to target these individuals, then determine, with absolute certainty and substantiated proof they are selling illegally acquired scrappers. That would require probably a full time staff trolling ebay all day every day to try to begin this process. As we all know, all companies have downsized, Disney included, and this is likely just not feasible. Let's say they did do this, then targeted ceratain individuals. The would have to order and receive the items, prove they are scrappers and then pursue legal action. They would then have to work with ebay (another HUGE corporation) to provide legal documents forbidding certain sellers from selling on ebay. Then they would have to rely on ebay to ban these sellers. If that were to happen, I'm guessing it would take all of about 1 minute for these sellers to create new accounts and start all over again.

This is just a small tidbit of what would likely need to be done to curtail this activity from the Disney legal level. Are they doing something about this? Absolutely in my opinion! However, as we all know, this could take years if not decades.

As far as selling pins to outlets, I have yet to see a pin at an outlet for less than $3 (trust me, I've been to dozens all over the country). The cheapest I have ever seen a pin, that is authentic from Disney, was at the CM store and they came down to $2.27 per pin. This was a SPECIFIC sale only for CM's and only for 3 days (special event). I have seen them on sale at Disney Stores for around or slightly under $2 and online for $2-3 range.

As far as the statement that you made regarding "if they've been selling pins for awhile and Disney hasn't come down on them the seller isn't knowingly selling scrappers (paraphrased)" is totally incorrect. There are several sellers (2 that I have specifically given information to Disney legal on) that are STILL selling scrappers and likely will for the foreseeable future. These people are WAY ahead of Disney on getting their fakes sold which is truly a shame. A lot of people who buy these lots have the same way of thinking. "If they have high and good feedback, and are powersellers they must be legit" this is the biggest misconception for potential buyers!

People who are leaving positive feeback for the people have no idea what a scrapper is or that it exists. They are just looking for cheap pins..period. This is what this thread is about..educating those looking to buy cheap pins that are legit. There are reputable sellers of authentic pins on ebay that sell them cheap (I have done so previously). But the overall "take away" information from this thread should be....if it's too good to be true it probably is (note probably). If you're buying 100 pins for under a buck a pin from one person who has sold thousands just like it before, they're fake. Can I say this with absolute certainty? No. But common sense needs to kick it at some point and that's really what I'm trying to convey.

Please don't take this as anything buy my opinion on this issue and certainly not meant to be defensive. I have been in this debate for years now and have gained valuable information and insight regarding it. I do not know everything, I learn something new all the time. But I've done this and been involved in this long enough to be able to spot a scrapper and scrapper seller almost immediately.

I can't imagine anyone would forbid their children to trade because of this issue, I certainly wouldn't do it to my children or encourage anyone else to. But I also don't want to spend my hard earned dollars buying authentic merchandise to trade it with a cheap piece of tin made in China. So I educate myself, my family and anyone who asks, so they can be better informed when trading.

I value everyone's opinion and thank you for posting your thoughts!

 

[Ecboyd]

Very well (and civilly) argued.

I love pin trading, and frankly could not tell a fake from a real pin, but I only trade with what I buy at the park (Or the Disney store, or the Discount Disney stores).

But I wanted to thank you both for the Education and the well argued points of view.

All to often on line people loose their tempers and blast each other... I actually enjoyed reading your discourse, it was very educational.

Thank you!

 

[blockscrappers]

Here's an idea. Convince Disney to buy from the U.S.A, they could bid out the job, still make money and provide American jobs. That way they more easily protect their pins by only authorizing one U.S. company to make and back stamp them. Plus they could get the company to destroy the mold once a certain number is made.

 

[pixiewings71]

Here's an idea. Convince Disney to buy from the U.S.A, they could bid out the job, still make money and provide American jobs. That way they more easily protect their pins by only authorizing one U.S. company to make and back stamp them. Plus they could get the company to destroy the mold once a certain number is made.

ita!

 

[Emerson613]

Here's an idea. Convince Disney to buy from the U.S.A, they could bid out the job, still make money and provide American jobs. That way they more easily protect their pins by only authorizing one U.S. company to make and back stamp them. Plus they could get the company to destroy the mold once a certain number is made.

yeah! That! Since I am late to this topic but freshly Scrapper initiated- I couldn't agree more! How upsetting and totally makes you feel torn. It's horrible! But this is what you get when someone can sell you something for $0.50 instead of $9.50. Makes me sad! Honestly!

 

[pixiewings71]

Hi Emerson, there is a new thread regarding eBay and scrappers, this one is very old. The other one is slightly more updated and we have a member who is working on making a brand new list for us. Please follow the link in my signature to get to the new thread.

 

[Kevin Burch]

Hello,

I bought a pin at WDW in Epcot, but much to my surprise after inspecting it with the others, I found a small error. The pin I got was a limited edition Epcot 35 anniversary I was there. The error that I noticed was the “1” in the year 2017 was not filled in with white. Since I just started getting into trading I was just curious what the significance of purchasing a error pin from WDW is, and is there a way to report it to see if there are duplicates?