Splash Mountain to become Princess and the Frog ride

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It's been a while since I've seen the movie, remind me who Evangeline is?

The night star! Ray the firefly's true love. :love:

As for attraction name, I wonder if they might go with something like ... Tiana's Mardi Gras Mountain. That's a terrible name idea so I really hope not lol.
 
I don't think it would be a big deal if they just left it but i feel like it's too perfect that New Orleans Square is right there for them not to do something. It will basically be the ride that would fit there the most lol

But that’s not true in both parks.
 
As Maya Angelou said, “When you know better, you do better.” This is the difference. We know now that it is not respectful and it can be changed.

At the time, SotS was seen as a progressive movie. Uncle Remus is the good guy and the white adults are the bad people. That’s a simplistic way to put it, but that’s how children view the movie. They don’t think about the fact that since uncle Remus seems happy means that the things he went through are ok. Not to mention the ride doesn’t have anything to do with the live action portions of the movie which are seen as problematic.

James Baskett was the first African American to win an academy award for his performance of Uncle Remus. *As has been pointed out, I got this fact wrong. He was the first AA male to win it, not the first AA overall.

The quote from Maya also shows why we shouldn’t judge things of the past by today’s standards. An argument can be made for almost anything made in the past. And that’s what terrifies me about cancel culture. It doesn’t matter how innocent something is or the fact that it brings millions of people joy. Everything can be a target, and eventually we will all be affected by having some special taken from us.
 
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The night star! Ray the firefly's true love. :love:

As for attraction name, I wonder if they might go with something like ... Tiana's Mardi Gras Mountain. That's a terrible name idea so I really hope not lol.
well that's better than the working title which sounds like a new tv series. haha
 
Do you think there's any possibility of Disneyland saying that the new "Splash Mountain" is located in New Orleans Square instead of Critter Country? It's right next door to New Orleans Square and it would absolutely fit being as part of that land.
would almost certainly say that New Orleans Square will be annexing Splash Mountain. That leaves Critter Country pretty paltry - so I would say they may need to make that area a sub-land or something, something like the "wildlands" - and Tiana and Naveen are travelling there in the story. Youare then let off in the mystical wilds. At MK, I think Frontierland could become something less specific to the "Old West" and become a bit of a mashup of the untamed wilds of America. Then the story works that way too.
 
I would think the word “mountain” in the name might stick. What’s another word for mountain? bayou or swamp maybe as well? Tianas Bayou Adventure?
 
would almost certainly say that New Orleans Square will be annexing Splash Mountain. That leaves Critter Country pretty paltry - so I would say they may need to make that area a sub-land or something, something like the "wildlands" - and Tiana and Naveen are travelling there in the story. Youare then let off in the mystical wilds. At MK, I think Frontierland could become something less specific to the "Old West" and become a bit of a mashup of the untamed wilds of America. Then the story works that way too.

Frontierland needs to go. It will trigger kids who have read about the trail of tears and manifest destiny. :)
 
At the time, SotS was seen as a progressive movie. Uncle Remus is the good guy and the white adults are the bad people. That’s a simplistic way to put it, but that’s how children view the movie. They don’t think about the fact that since uncle Remus seems happy means that the things he went through are ok. Not to mention the ride doesn’t have anything to do with the live action portions of the movie which are seen as problematic.

James Baskett was the first African American to win an academy award for his performance of Uncle Remus.

The quote from Maya also shows why we shouldn’t judge things of the past by today’s standards. An argument can be made for almost anything made in the past. And that’s what terrifies me about cancel culture. It doesn’t matter how innocent something is or the fact that it brings millions of people joy. Everything can be a target, and eventually we will all be affected by having some special taken from us.


I am pretty sure Hattie McDaniel pre-dates him. But, it is still a monumental achievement that I wish people didn't throw the baby out with the bathwater on.

That was always the way I saw Song of the South...Uncle Remus was this loveable, good guy. Kind of like the groundskeeper in Rudy. Like you said, in the most simplistic of ways.

Not to get too preachy but Titus says, "To the pure, all things are pure." And, that makes me think of Disney very much in a way. How do kids see it? I do hope we get to a point someday that...we accept the more pure/childlike version of things and that's the reality for all kids, no matter their skin tone.
 
I guess my question for the people who are upset is "what is it about the ride that you love so much?"

* If it's the mechanics of it, the flume, the getting nice and wet on a hot day, then congratulations! That won't change!
* If it's the catchy song: I get that. I have a serious love-hate relationship with a song that has lyrics that go against everything I believe in...but it's so catchy I can't stop humming it. It's also possible to enjoy a song devoid of context, so go right ahead. The good news is that no one is going to stop you from listening to or singing or whistling it. And have you listened to "When We're Human" from Princess and the Frog? It's pretty catchy and hummable, too.
*If it's the theming itself, the specific story you see as you ride through...then we need to talk about that.

I see (both here and elsewhere) a lot of people saying that the ride itself isn't racist, and that even though the movie itself was incredibly offensive the ride is just fun and lighthearted and doesn't have those problematic elements in it. Therefore, the logic goes, why should we change it?

Because saying "What? We made it less racist, why aren't you people happy yet?" is part of the problem.

There is a reverence for history at the parks, particularly at Disneyland (where Walt was!) but also clearly at Disney World. That's fine and good, but just because you take out the most offensive bit of an era doesn't mean you aren't still longing for a time when people of colour, LGBT+ people, non-Christian people, and generally all the "other" folks were silent.

I say this as a gay Jewish person from a multi-ethnic, multi-racial family. I love going to the parks. But there are elements scattered throughout, particularly in the castle parks, that make me very uncomfortable because of their overt yearning for a "better" and "simpler" time that was much worse for myself, my family, and most of my friends.

When you wish for the "simpler time" of Main Street USA, you're not just talking about somewhere everyone knew their neighbours and people didn't lock their doors. You're talking about a time and place that coincided with the reemergence of white dominance after Reconstruction, a time when the confederate statues were popping up like daisies. And those two sides of 1910 small town America aren't coincidental, they're intertwined. (Certainly in Missouri, the state that gave rise to the Brown v Board decision.) Similarly, when we talk about the "simpler time" inherent to Disney parks, we're talking about being kids, about this sort of 1950s "wholesomeness" and "simplicity" that is always contrasted against the "turmoil" of the 60s when people were standing up and demanding to be counted and treated with respect. It's white kids playing cowboys and indians in the yard and fantastic adventures to "exotic" lands where savages with blow-darts are behind every tree.

(Speaking of which, does this mean we can finally get rid of the random Native American figures throughout the parks? How did no one change them when moving everything for the DL Railroad redo a year ago? Why is this still a thing?)

Any time we don't have to talk about uncomfortable concepts feels "simpler." Any time we can go about our merry lives and not worry about unlearning what we've been taught is "simpler." That doesn't mean it's something we should aspire to, or that being forced to grow is a bad thing.

The same holds true here. "This used to be fine!" Well, no, it was never fine. It was always from a racist movie and contained seriously cringe-worthy elements (tar baby? Really?). We're just finally at a tipping point where people who are uncomfortable with it are a critical mass enough to generate change.

So no: the ride itself may not have been inherently triggering or racist. But that ride, like a lot of other things in the parks, are microaggressions that add up like a series of individual grains of sand in your shoe over the course of the day. It's a sign to people of colour that "we liked it a whole lot better when you were quiet." That, in our mental image of an idealized world, it would look a lot more like the Jim Crow south than like anywhere modern. Not on purpose, not because any of us think that we hate people who are unlike ourselves, but because it's a lot "simpler" to not have to worry about things like that and just do what we want, regardless of how it makes other people feel.
 
I guess my question for the people who are upset is "what is it about the ride that you love so much?"

* If it's the mechanics of it, the flume, the getting nice and wet on a hot day, then congratulations! That won't change!
* If it's the catchy song: I get that. I have a serious love-hate relationship with a song that has lyrics that go against everything I believe in...but it's so catchy I can't stop humming it. It's also possible to enjoy a song devoid of context, so go right ahead. The good news is that no one is going to stop you from listening to or singing or whistling it. And have you listened to "When We're Human" from Princess and the Frog? It's pretty catchy and hummable, too.
*If it's the theming itself, the specific story you see as you ride through...then we need to talk about that.

I see (both here and elsewhere) a lot of people saying that the ride itself isn't racist, and that even though the movie itself was incredibly offensive the ride is just fun and lighthearted and doesn't have those problematic elements in it. Therefore, the logic goes, why should we change it?

Because saying "What? We made it less racist, why aren't you people happy yet?" is part of the problem.

There is a reverence for history at the parks, particularly at Disneyland (where Walt was!) but also clearly at Disney World. That's fine and good, but just because you take out the most offensive bit of an era doesn't mean you aren't still longing for a time when people of colour, LGBT+ people, non-Christian people, and generally all the "other" folks were silent.

I say this as a gay Jewish person from a multi-ethnic, multi-racial family. I love going to the parks. But there are elements scattered throughout, particularly in the castle parks, that make me very uncomfortable because of their overt yearning for a "better" and "simpler" time that was much worse for myself, my family, and most of my friends.

When you wish for the "simpler time" of Main Street USA, you're not just talking about somewhere everyone knew their neighbours and people didn't lock their doors. You're talking about a time and place that coincided with the reemergence of white dominance after Reconstruction, a time when the confederate statues were popping up like daisies. And those two sides of 1910 small town America aren't coincidental, they're intertwined. (Certainly in Missouri, the state that gave rise to the Brown v Board decision.) Similarly, when we talk about the "simpler time" inherent to Disney parks, we're talking about being kids, about this sort of 1950s "wholesomeness" and "simplicity" that is always contrasted against the "turmoil" of the 60s when people were standing up and demanding to be counted and treated with respect. It's white kids playing cowboys and indians in the yard and fantastic adventures to "exotic" lands where savages with blow-darts are behind every tree.

(Speaking of which, does this mean we can finally get rid of the random Native American figures throughout the parks? How did no one change them when moving everything for the DL Railroad redo a year ago? Why is this still a thing?)

Any time we don't have to talk about uncomfortable concepts feels "simpler." Any time we can go about our merry lives and not worry about unlearning what we've been taught is "simpler." That doesn't mean it's something we should aspire to, or that being forced to grow is a bad thing.

The same holds true here. "This used to be fine!" Well, no, it was never fine. It was always from a racist movie and contained seriously cringe-worthy elements (tar baby? Really?). We're just finally at a tipping point where people who are uncomfortable with it are a critical mass enough to generate change.

So no: the ride itself may not have been inherently triggering or racist. But that ride, like a lot of other things in the parks, are microaggressions that add up like a series of individual grains of sand in your shoe over the course of the day. It's a sign to people of colour that "we liked it a whole lot better when you were quiet." That, in our mental image of an idealized world, it would look a lot more like the Jim Crow south than like anywhere modern. Not on purpose, not because any of us think that we hate people who are unlike ourselves, but because it's a lot "simpler" to not have to worry about things like that and just do what we want, regardless of how it makes other people feel.
Once again this is not true.

Brer Rabbit and his story comes from Africa. It long precedes white guy Joel Chandler Harris' Uncle Remus stories.
There is no reason to erase Brer Rabbit and African culture.

If you want to add a Tiana, Princess and the Frog ride fine. But there's no reason to get rid of the Brer Rabbit ride. Why not have two rides based on African cultures instead of keeping a quota of one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br'er_Rabbit
 
Once again this is not true.

Brer Rabbit and his story comes from Africa. It long precedes white guy Joel Chandler Harris' Uncle Remus stories.
There is no reason to erase Brer Rabbit and African culture.

If you want to add a Tiana, Princess and the Frog ride fine. But there's no reason to get rid of the Brer Rabbit ride. Why not have two rides based on African cultures instead of keeping a quota of one.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Br'er_Rabbit

And yet they made the decision, so no amount of persuasion will change that.
 
At the time, SotS was seen as a progressive movie. Uncle Remus is the good guy and the white adults are the bad people. That’s a simplistic way to put it, but that’s how children view the movie. They don’t think about the fact that since uncle Remus seems happy means that the things he went through are ok. Not to mention the ride doesn’t have anything to do with the live action portions of the movie which are seen as problematic.

James Baskett was the first African American to win an academy award for his performance of Uncle Remus.

The quote from Maya also shows why we shouldn’t judge things of the past by today’s standards. An argument can be made for almost anything made in the past. And that’s what terrifies me about cancel culture. It doesn’t matter how innocent something is or the fact that it brings millions of people joy. Everything can be a target, and eventually we will all be affected by having some special taken from us.
A note: I don’t agree with cancel culture either, necessarily. I don’t think this situation is cancel culture.

I believe Hattie McDaniel was actually the first African American to win an Oscar. James Baskett was the first male African American to win. And civil rights groups at the time criticized both films for their stereotypical portrayal of African Americans. We have been told for literal decades that these films are racist! It does not diminish from these actors’ work or talents in the least. They had no other choice of roles at the time. Hattie McDaniel wasn’t even allowed to attend the ceremony with her cast mates because of her skin color. How humiliating.

At the end of the day, this is a theme park ride. A theme park I love and have been going to since I was 6 months old. I know the ride is important to many people. But it is not being demolished. It will still be there. I think Disney was going to do this regardless, but they chose now to announce it because it fits in with current events. But it was going to happen one way or another.
 
There is a reverence for history at the parks, particularly at Disneyland (where Walt was!) but also clearly at Disney World. That's fine and good, but just because you take out the most offensive bit of an era doesn't mean you aren't still longing for a time when people of colour, LGBT+ people, non-Christian people, and generally all the "other" folks were silent.

I say this as a gay Jewish person from a multi-ethnic, multi-racial family. I love going to the parks. But there are elements scattered throughout, particularly in the castle parks, that make me very uncomfortable because of their overt yearning for a "better" and "simpler" time that was much worse for myself, my family, and most of my friends.

When you wish for the "simpler time" of Main Street USA, you're not just talking about somewhere everyone knew their neighbours and people didn't lock their doors. You're talking about a time and place that coincided with the reemergence of white dominance after Reconstruction, a time when the confederate statues were popping up like daisies. And those two sides of 1910 small town America aren't coincidental, they're intertwined. (Certainly in Missouri, the state that gave rise to the Brown v Board decision.) Similarly, when we talk about the "simpler time" inherent to Disney parks, we're talking about being kids, about this sort of 1950s "wholesomeness" and "simplicity" that is always contrasted against the "turmoil" of the 60s when people were standing up and demanding to be counted and treated with respect. It's white kids playing cowboys and indians in the yard and fantastic adventures to "exotic" lands where savages with blow-darts are behind every tree.

Okay...I get your point, at least partially.

But, what would you suggest? Gut the parks? Get rid of all Americana-themed things? Get rid of the charm of Main Street USA?

I mean, really if you think about it, Grand Floridian, the Boardwalk, Yacht and Beach, are all very evocative of a certain class (a class I am not a part of by the way) in an era gone by kind of way. If you enjoy those resorts for their turn-of-the-century simpler times...aren't we kind of talking about the same thing?

So, I guess what I am asking, and I am asking completely sincerely and not in a troll-ish way....what is the answer? If the parks are brimming with nostalgia for the past, and people love that nostalgia for the past...how can it be reconciled? Other than just gutting the park(s)?
 
My problem here is this is dangerously close to saying "Your feelings don't matter" or "Your feelings matter less."

Why can't everyone's feelings in this matter be allowed, legitimate, and respected?

Well I don't think that the feelings those who have nostalgia or the other concerns for the ride I discussed unrelated to fears that Disney won't do a good job aren't allowed or legitimate or that they shouldn't be respected. That said you are correct that I do think those feelings matter less than the feelings of those who can't fully enjoy Splash Mountain the way others do because it is an uncomfortable reminder of a dark time in our country (not just when the movie was set, but when the movie came out and fit neatly into the "Lost Cause" propaganda that helped to support and justify Jim Crow-era horrors) when considering whether or not to retheme Splash Mountain. Change is hard, but no matter how important nostalgia is for a theme park ride, those feelings can't possibly trump those of people who are trying to tell us this hurts us and causes us pain (even if just a little). The pain of changing a beloved ride is simply not the same as the pain those who don't want to be reminded of how stories like Song of the South stem from a tradition that distorted the ugly reality of the "history" it claims to depict.
 
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