5th gate and DVC

[nuhusky123]

Universal is not a cheap vacation and their customer base is by no means poor. Pretty ignorant for anyone to say that imo

the appeal of universal is different than Disney as the rides tend to be more thrill based

On the tie in to dvc. I think universal canfurther tap into Disney market share by adding time shares.

 

[lowlight]

Nobody called you poor, that's a weirdly defensive response to have. Nobody who visits either park is poor. Vacationing at either park is something that 99% of the world can't afford to do. It was an allusion to Chapek's comment about wanting to get the people who spend less to come less and focus on the spendy guests. It's like Apple vs Samsung. Neither phone is cheap, both are great, but clearly one is marketed to a certain segment compared to the other one. Disney has stated they are going for the premium crowd. Universal just wants market share, they will pick up the rest of us who can't afford to go to Disney anymore. The quote was a modification of John Lennon's tongue in cheek comment about the class system in England at the time, directed towards the British royalty at one of their concerts.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Ride sharing along with Universal adding Harry Potter assisted in killing Magical Express. As much as Iger/Chapek are maligned, I don't think they woke up one morning and said, let's kill off DME. I think they woke up and said, let's look into whether DME is still providing benefits that exceed the costs. They have access to data that we cannot even fathom.

While it's true that this was the thought process, they've come to regret it. They miscalculated the reason why people liked DME in the first place. It wasn't because it was free, it was because it was easy. The people who liked it don't want to (or can't, because of car seats or other needs) book an Uber. It was never about saving $50 on a shuttle service or rideshare, it was about simplifying the planning process and being able to book a complete vacation without needing to think about transportation at all. They didn't get this and were stunned by the backlash they received.

 

[supersnoop]

While it's true that this was the thought process, they've come to regret it. They miscalculated the reason why people liked DME in the first place. It wasn't because it was free, it was because it was easy. The people who liked it don't want to (or can't, because of car seats or other needs) book an Uber. It was never about saving $50 on a shuttle service or rideshare, it was about simplifying the planning process and being able to book a complete vacation without needing to think about transportation at all. They didn't get this and were stunned by the backlash they received.

I wonder if cutting DME will have an impact on the dining plan. Many people saw it as an easy, all-inclusive package, and now that they're making people think more about transportation, those people will be more inclined to calculate value.

 

[Sandisw]

While it's true that this was the thought process, they've come to regret it. They miscalculated the reason why people liked DME in the first place. It wasn't because it was free, it was because it was easy. The people who liked it don't want to (or can't, because of car seats or other needs) book an Uber. It was never about saving $50 on a shuttle service or rideshare, it was about simplifying the planning process and being able to book a complete vacation without needing to think about transportation at all. They didn't get this and were stunned by the backlash they received.

I believe they have died in a private transportation option now for a fee. So, I think they have discovered there is a benefit and are not charging for it.

Not sure how it all works though.

https://wdwnt.com/2022/01/private-t...rld-now-available-as-vacation-package-add-on/

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I believe they have died in a private transportation option now for a fee. So, I think they have discovered there is a benefit and are not charging for it.

Not sure how it all works though.

https://wdwnt.com/2022/01/private-t...rld-now-available-as-vacation-package-add-on/

I think that's just Means that you're able to book through Disney, but I may be mistaken.

 

[Sandisw]

I think that's just Means that you're able to book through Disney, but I may be mistaken.

It may be but it can be booked as an all inclusive package via Disney Travel, like DME could be added. So, people can end up with the same easy experience as before for cash stays, just not for free.

Since part of what made DME so popular was the ease...but I think the free was also a big part of it...they did bring this back to fill the need for those not wanting to set it up on their own.

Once the dining plan comes up, it will be like before...book it all through Disney ahead of time and be on your way!

 

[RivShore]

They didn't get this and were stunned by the backlash they received.

Have you seen any comments from the company on being stunned by the backlash? Or just assuming from what you see on the boards?

 

[RivShore]

2. Ride sharing along with Universal adding Harry Potter assisted in killing Magical Express. As much as Iger/Chapek are maligned, I don't think they woke up one morning and said, let's kill off DME. I think they woke up and said, let's look into whether DME is still providing benefits that exceed the costs. They have access to data that we cannot even fathom.

Someone on the boards back when DME was cancelled mention that TSA and MCO made some changes to baggage handling that made that part of it nearly impossible to continue, if true, that must have played a big part in cancelling it.

 

[RivShore]

Just to put a bit of a high level perspective on the question - currently WDW has 27,000 acres vs 840 acres for Universal. WDW total attendance is 2 to 3 times more than the current Universal gates. How successful does the new gate need to be before Disney notices?

 

[nuhusky123]

Just to put a bit of a high level perspective on the question - currently WDW has 27,000 acres vs 840 acres for Universal. WDW total attendance is 2 to 3 times more than the current Universal gates. How successful does the new gate need to be before Disney notices?

This is a really strange data point. Who care who has more land. The only thing that matters is attendance

from what ive been able to find and neither universal nor Disney report daily numbers. But Disney gets about 160k a day while universal gets 40k a day

even a modest change by 5k would have a massive impact to Disney. But given universal does 40k between two parks it would not be unrealistic to expect epic universe to get 20k on its own. unless Orlando attracts an extra 20k that number is coming from disney so yeah I’d say 5k-20k lower numbers at Disney moving to universal would have a pretty damn large impact to Disney’s bottom line

edit i missed the 1 from 160k

 

[The Jackal]

This is a really strange data point. Who care who has more land. The only thing that matters is attendance

from what ive been able to find and neither universal nor Disney report daily numbers. But Disney gets about 60k a day while universal gets 40k a day

even a modest change by 5k would have a massive impact to Disney. But given universal does 40k between two parks it would not be unrealistic to expect epic universe to get 20k on its own. unless Orlando attracts an extra 20k that number is coming from disney so yeah I’d say 5k-20k lower numbers at Disney moving to universal would have a pretty damn large impact to Disney’s bottom line

WDW has more land for expansion, yes WDW has a lot of land that cannot be developed, while Universal has to maximize the use of their land. The MK back in 2019 had on average 56,000 guests a day, Epcot, Hollywood Studios and Animal Kingdom averaged a little over 20,000 guests a day per park. Pushing WDW theme parks to about 120,000 guests per day. Universal Florida averaged a little over 20,000 per day for both, so a little over 40,000 guests per day. WDW has 3 times the volume.

 

[RivShore]

This is a really strange data point. Who care who has more land

I think it helps demonstrate that WDW requires multi day visits to see everything because it is so much bigger.

And just FYI, here's some estimated pre-covid annual attendance numbers:

(apparently this data is on a blocked site. If you search for "Annual Attendance Report for 2019 Shows Very Interesting" you should be able to find it.)

And this has the area comparison along with many other comparisons between the 2 resorts:

https://magicguides.com/universal-vs-disney-world/

 

[tjkraz]

It's a little silly to firmly declare that Universal's new park will cause long term harm to Disney. There's a built in audience for Disney content that's constantly being refreshed by new families, new kids, new grandparents. Every day, some people are discovering Pirates of the Caribbean for the first time while others are returning for Galaxy's Edge and GOTG.

Via pricing, Disney has tremendous ability to goose its attendance numbers when necessary. Should Disney's numbers suffer, a modest ticket or hotel discount can bring in more guests without spending $4-5 billion on a new park.

The Harry Potter attractions were supposed to hurt Disney. But they didn't. Instead it became additive. Universal saw gains in attendance, but Disney continued to climb too. The phrase "a rising tide lifts all boats" seems apt.

 

[nuhusky123]

I think it helps demonstrate that WDW requires multi day visits to see everything because it is so much bigger.

And just FYI, here's some estimated pre-covid annual attendance numbers:

(apparently this data is on a blocked site. If you search for "Annual Attendance Report for 2019 Shows Very Interesting" you should be able to find it.)

And this has the area comparison along with many other comparisons between the 2 resorts:

https://magicguides.com/universal-vs-disney-world/

Land ownership is still pointless. What matters is four gates vs two

are people walking around wdw and exploring the swamp?

 

[Paul Stupin]

It's a little silly to firmly declare that Universal's new park will cause long term harm to Disney. There's a built in audience for Disney content that's constantly being refreshed by new families, new kids, new grandparents. Every day, some people are discovering Pirates of the Caribbean for the first time while others are returning for Galaxy's Edge and GOTG.

Via pricing, Disney has tremendous ability to goose its attendance numbers when necessary. Should Disney's numbers suffer, a modest ticket or hotel discount can bring in more guests without spending $4-5 billion on a new park.

The Harry Potter attractions were supposed to hurt Disney. But they didn't. Instead it became additive. Universal saw gains in attendance, but Disney continued to climb too. The phrase "a rising tide lifts all boats" seems apt.

I think Universal’s new park will be spectacular, will drive greater profits, and probably hurt Disney a bit as well. Folks won’t stop going to Disney, but they might spend a little less time at WDW in order to check out Epic Universe. If they enjoy the experience, they’ll spend time at Uni’s three other gates too.

 

[The Jackal]

I think Universal’s new park will be spectacular, will drive greater profits, and probably hurt Disney a bit as well. Folks won’t stop going to Disney, but they might spend a little less time at WDW in order to check out Epic Universe. If they enjoy the experience, they’ll spend time at Uni’s three other gates too.

Volcano Bay is not a gate, but if you want to consider it a gate. Both Typhoon Lagoon and Blizzard Beach in 2019 had higher attendance records than Volcano Bay. So WDW has 6 gates and all 4 of WDW theme parks have higher attendance than the 2 at Universal. The 2 WDW water parks have higher attendance than the 1 water park at Universal.
A new park at Universal will take away some attendance at WDW. How will WDW react?

 

[nuhusky123]

I think Universal’s new park will be spectacular, will drive greater profits, and probably hurt Disney a bit as well. Folks won’t stop going to Disney, but they might spend a little less time at WDW in order to check out Epic Universe. If they enjoy the experience, they’ll spend time at Uni’s three other gates too.

I’m interested to see how universal let’s guests visit epic and then the other two same day. the hog warts express is hands down the best theme park transit system I’ve seen. Beats disney hands down and truth be told it’s actually my favorite ride at universal and yes I consider it a ride it’s that good in my view

epic is probably too far for a train extension but I could see them doing a london double decker to simulate the night bus. I just hope they keep up the theming to transit guests between parks vs some Regular old

 

[RivShore]

Land ownership is still pointless. What matters is four gates vs two

are people walking around wdw and exploring the swamp?

So just looking at developed land, WDW is still nearly 10 times the size of Universal - they really are hardly in the same class given the size and attendance differences. I don't see the 3rd gate doing much to WDW in normal times...now if the pandemic gets worse, inflation runs hotter longer, etc, etc, then maybe the impacts are different, but a lot of ifs.

 

[Paul Stupin]

Volcano Bay is not a gate, but if you want to consider it a gate. Both Typhoon Lagoon and Blizzard Beach in 2019 had higher attendance records than Volcano Bay. So WDW has 6 gates and all 4 of WDW theme parks have higher attendance than the 2 at Universal. The 2 WDW water parks have higher attendance than the 1 water park at Universal.
A new park at Universal will take away some attendance at WDW. How will WDW react?

I think WDW will offer some discounts for longer stays to try to preempt guests moving to Uni for a few days. But I think with current management Disney is way too cheap to even consider another gate, or another big attraction after the years long Epcot refresh and the Tron ride at the Magic Kingdom.
Yeah, Volcano Bay isn’t really a gate, but I do think it’s further enticement, and something to do, if visitors like Epic Universe and want to check out everything else Uni has to offer. And you can bet that the longer you decide to stay, the cheaper those extra days will be.