Explain Passenger Rules re B2B?

[motherdaughtercruisers]

Could someone explain the passenger rule (I can’t remember what the CM called it - had a 3 letter acronym I believe) that makes B2B possible/not possible?

I tried to book a B2B this morning for the new 2025 itineraries. I was going to do the Galveston to San Juan then San Juan to Ft Lauderdale, but couldn’t because of a passenger rule (can’t remember the exact name). I know it has something to do with a closed loop and/or a foreign port.

I was hoping someone could just explain the rule and why it didn’t work out in this scenario.

I’m not trying to argue they should allow it, I’m just wanting to understand it so that I don’t get my hopes up again.

I have a B2B2B booked for 2024 that is Ft. Lauderdale to San Juan, San Juan to San Juan, San Juan to Galveston that to my understanding is legal due to the middle segment being a closed loop.

Does it have to do with the US government not being able to track my leaving and re-entering the country?

Just trying to understand!

 

[Kwami]

There's a really stupid, really old law that says you can't go from one US port to another US port without stopping in a "distant foreign port" unless the ship is built and flagged in the US. Almost no cruise ships meet those requirements and certainly none of Disney's do.

It's not about tracking you. It's an old protectionism law meant to boost US shipbuilders. It should go away.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

 

[motherdaughtercruisers]

There's a really stupid, really old law that says you can't go from one US port to another US port without stopping in a "distant foreign port" unless the ship is built and flagged in the US. Almost no cruise ships meet those requirements and certainly none of Disney's do.

It's not about tracking you. It's an old protectionism law meant to boost US shipbuilders. It should go away.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

Gotcha, so San Juan would not be considered a distant foreign port because it is a US territory? Just trying to understand how the B2B2B works when this new booking wouldn’t. And by “stopping”, do you mean the end of the cruise or does it also encompass “stopping” at ports of call?

Sorry I’m just trying to wrap my mind around it, not intending to be difficult.

 

[Flossbolna]

Gotcha, so San Juan would not be considered a distant foreign port because it is a US territory? Just trying to understand how the B2B2B works when this new booking wouldn’t. And by “stopping”, do you mean the end of the cruise or does it also encompass “stopping” at ports of call?

Sorry I’m just trying to wrap my mind around it, not intending to be difficult.

If the middle cruise stops in the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire and Curaçao) then you’re fine as these are distant foreign ports.

 

[motherdaughtercruisers]

If the middle cruise stops in the ABC islands (Aruba, Bonaire and Curaçao) then you’re fine as these are distant foreign ports.

Understood! So it’s like the Bahamas and Mexico that don’t qualify?

 

[tvguy]

There's a really stupid, really old law that says you can't go from one US port to another US port without stopping in a "distant foreign port" unless the ship is built and flagged in the US. Almost no cruise ships meet those requirements and certainly none of Disney's do.

It's not about tracking you. It's an old protectionism law meant to boost US shipbuilders. It should go away.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passenger_Vessel_Services_Act_of_1886

LOL. First, exemptions are made but take Congressional approval. That happened during the pandemic with cruises that had been using Canada as their foreign port, and the U.S. allowed cruising to resume far sooner than Canada did.
As for being repealing totally, Ah, Congress pretty much unanimous, there is not valid reason to repeal it with the pandemic over.

 

[tvguy]

Understood! So it’s like the Bahamas and Mexico that don’t qualify?

They qualify. Are those ports on your route? If so, the Jones Act that Kwami and I are talking about may not apply. Must be something else. Were the letters used PSA?
Here is some background. https://help.cruises.com/hc/en-us/a...es-the-Jones-Act-affect-back-to-back-cruises-

 

[PrincessShmoo]

but couldn’t because of a passenger rule (can’t remember the exact name). I know it has something to do with a closed loop and/or a foreign port.

It's the PVSA - Passenger Vessel Services Act.

Kwami pretty much covered it. And, unless, as Flossbolna says, the middle segment of your B2B2B goes to a distant foreign port, I don't think that one would be legal, either.

The actual wording is (non-coastwise meaning a non-US flagged ship):

A violation occurs if a non-coastwise-qualified vessel transports a passenger between U.S. coastwise ports by way of a “nearby foreign port.” (19 CFR § 4.80a(b)(2)). For example, a violative transportation occurs when a non-coastwise-qualified vessel that embarks a passenger in Los Angeles, transports him/her to the Hawaiian Islands and Ensenada ,Mexico then proceeds to San Diego where the passenger disembarks. Ensenada, Mexico is a “nearby foreign port” pursuant to the CBP regulations. A “nearby foreign port” is defined as "any port in North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao)." 19 CFR § 4.80a(a)(2).

 

[PrincessShmoo]

They qualify. Are those ports on your route? If so, the Jones Act that Kwami and I are talking about may not apply. Must be something else. Were the letters used PSA?
Here is some background. https://help.cruises.com/hc/en-us/a...es-the-Jones-Act-affect-back-to-back-cruises-

Mexico and the Bahamas do not qualify as a "distant" foreign port.

And it's not the Jones Act (that applies to cargo). It's the PVSA (applies to passenger ships).

 

[SteveMouse]

The law also protects the US Merchant Marine and other US workers in the marine industries. A US keel means US labor laws apply. Without the law or something similar in place, non-US ships- paying associated low wages- could offer passenger service between US ports.

 

[motherdaughtercruisers]

They qualify. Are those ports on your route? If so, the Jones Act that Kwami and I are talking about may not apply. Must be something else. Were the letters used PSA?
Here is some background. https://help.cruises.com/hc/en-us/a...es-the-Jones-Act-affect-back-to-back-cruises-

It's the PVSA - Passenger Vessel Services Act.

Kwami pretty much covered it. And, unless, as Flossbolna says, the middle segment of your B2B2B goes to a distant foreign port, I don't think that one would be legal, either.

The actual wording is (non-coastwise meaning a non-US flagged ship):

A violation occurs if a non-coastwise-qualified vessel transports a passenger between U.S. coastwise ports by way of a “nearby foreign port.” (19 CFR § 4.80a(b)(2)). For example, a violative transportation occurs when a non-coastwise-qualified vessel that embarks a passenger in Los Angeles, transports him/her to the Hawaiian Islands and Ensenada ,Mexico then proceeds to San Diego where the passenger disembarks. Ensenada, Mexico is a “nearby foreign port” pursuant to the CBP regulations. A “nearby foreign port” is defined as "any port in North America, Central America, the Bermuda Islands, or the West Indies (including the Bahama Islands, but not including the Leeward Islands of the Netherlands Antilles, i.e., Aruba, Bonaire, and Curacao)." 19 CFR § 4.80a(a)(2).

Mexico and the Bahamas do not qualify as a "distant" foreign port.

And it's not the Jones Act (that applies to cargo). It's the PVSA (applies to passenger ships).

Yes, I do think she said PVSA or PSA (I remember the first letter was p and last was A, so this makes sense.

My middle segment in the B2B2B is a Southern Caribbean and will visit St. Kitts, St. Lucia, Barbados, Dominica, and Antigua. I’m sure my B2B2B is fine since they let me book it. And I called to verify the whole thing with them (DCL).

I believe PrincessShmoo is where my answer lies because the B2B I wanted to book was both Bahamian Cruises.

Thank you all for helping me out! I REALLY appreciate it!

ETA: I realized I also should have credited Flossbolna also as they pointed out the ABC qualification in a previous post.

 

[Flossbolna]

Yes, I do think she said PVSA or PSA (I remember the first letter was p and last was A, so this makes sense.

My middle segment in the B2B2B is a Southern Caribbean and will visit St. Kitts, St. Lucia, Barbados, Dominica, and Antigua. I’m sure my B2B2B is fine since they let me book it. And I called to verify the whole thing with them (DCL).

I believe PrincessShmoo is where my answer lies because the B2B I wanted to book was both Bahamian Cruises.

Thank you all for helping me out! I REALLY appreciate it!

None of these ports however qualify as distant foreign ports according to the info I found on the PSVA. It's only Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao that are distant foreign ports of the Caribbean Islands. DCL has a history of not paying attention and then suddenly telling people that they cannot go on their cruises that they have booked a long time ago.

 

[Kwami]

Maybe the closed-loop cruise from San Juan breaks the chain sufficiently to satisfy PVSA? I don't know. It's kind of a weird situation. I don't actually see why that particular B2B2B cruise is allowed. You might want to confirm again with Disney that it's really, definitely OK.

 

[Kwami]

LOL. First, exemptions are made but take Congressional approval. That happened during the pandemic with cruises that had been using Canada as their foreign port, and the U.S. allowed cruising to resume far sooner than Canada did.
As for being repealing totally, Ah, Congress pretty much unanimous, there is not valid reason to repeal it with the pandemic over.

Congress would repeal the law if they wanted to. They won't, but they should. It's an outdated law that was written before pleasure cruises became a big industry.

They qualify. Are those ports on your route? If so, the Jones Act that Kwami and I are talking about may not apply. Must be something else. Were the letters used PSA?
Here is some background. https://help.cruises.com/hc/en-us/a...es-the-Jones-Act-affect-back-to-back-cruises-

The Jones Act is something else entirely and applies to cargo ships, not passenger vessels.

The law also protects the US Merchant Marine and other US workers in the marine industries. A US keel means US labor laws apply. Without the law or something similar in place, non-US ships- paying associated low wages- could offer passenger service between US ports.

The law is outdated. If we want a law that applies to actual transportation services, then that's fine and makes sense. It would be analogous to the laws about airlines. But to apply that law to cruise ships is just stupid. It's also clearly not working. How many US-built and US-flagged cruise ships are out there? Very few indeed. Nobody working on cruise ships is being protected by this law.

 

[tvguy]

Congress would repeal the law if they wanted to. They won't, but they should. It's an outdated law that was written before pleasure cruises became a big industry.


The Jones Act is something else entirely and applies to cargo ships, not passenger vessels.


The law is outdated. If we want a law that applies to actual transportation services, then that's fine and makes sense. It would be analogous to the laws about airlines. But to apply that law to cruise ships is just stupid. It's also clearly not working. How many US-built and US-flagged cruise ships are out there? Very few indeed. Nobody working on cruise ships is being protected by this law.

You're right, Congress doesn't want to repeal it. There were stories done during the pandemic when exemptions were approved explaining why the law is not outdated and still serves a purpose.

 

[ljhayes]

None of these ports however qualify as distant foreign ports according to the info I found on the PSVA. It's only Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao that are distant foreign ports of the Caribbean Islands. DCL has a history of not paying attention and then suddenly telling people that they cannot go on their cruises that they have booked a long time ago.

Just seconding this comment. This does not appear to be a legal b2b2b. If you were doing just the b2b (first and second, or second and third) I believe it would be ok because San Juan has a PVSA exemption. But with the b2b2b, this is a violation of the PVSA. You should definitely talk to DCL again.

 

[_auroraborealis_]

FWIW, Puerto Rico is not your issue. Your issue is that you start in Galveston and end in Fort Lauderdale, so this is considered "coastwise" transport under the PVSA. Having two different US cities as endpoints is the problem.

 

[lanejudy]

FWIW, Puerto Rico is not your issue. Your issue is that you start in Galveston and end in Fort Lauderdale, so this is considered "coastwise" transport under the PVSA. Having two different US cities as endpoints is the problem.

I think OP's confusion -- and mine as well -- is what makes it different from her B2B2B which goes the opposite direction but same ports? Essentially Ft. Lauderdale to Galveston, with a closed loop out of San Juan in the middle? That one she was allowed to book.

 

[ljhayes]

I think OP's confusion -- and mine as well -- is what makes it different from her B2B2B which goes the opposite direction but same ports? Essentially Ft. Lauderdale to Galveston, with a closed loop out of San Juan in the middle? That one she was allowed to book.

I suspect the b2b2b was overlooked because both the first two legs or last two legs are legal cruises. I would expect that someone will realize this is not legal at some point.

 

[soniam]

I suspect the b2b2b was overlooked because both the first two legs or last two legs are legal cruises. I would expect that someone will realize this is not legal at some point.

Hopefully. OP I would definitely get back in touch with them about this. I don't know how good DCL is about informing people. However, some Celebrity passengers got notified a few months out that there B2Bs weren't valid. It might have even been after paid in full