Aggressive anti-rental email response from MS

[TinkAgainU]

The only priority they can do is the special list which means everyone is entered into a random pull. There is no way per our contracts to give certain owners priority booking over other owners at the home resorts...well, I don't see anything in your contract or the Home Resort Rules and Regulations that would allow what you are suggesting.

If you have something that I am missing, please share where you are finding the information.

I've always noted the DVC "Rules and Regulations" (current version 11-2021) are a relatively simple document which states it can be Amended, and the new R&Rs just need to be updated on the DVC website to be effective - obviously, there are some legal protections.

Oddly, just now I did notice reading in Section V. 3. b. (which is actually referencing Member Benefits and Privileges - so maybe nothing to do with bookings - seems to be in the blue card vs white card area of discussions) it seems to mention DVC members are to notify DVC if a Guest is Renting from the member? Possibly only applies if requesting a specific Benefit, but the terminology is there.... BOLD is mine for emphasis.

3. Making Reservations for Guest.

a. Club Members may use their Home Resort Vacation Points to reserve Vacation Homes that will be occupied by Guests.

b. When a Club Member uses Home Resort Vacation Points to reserve Vacation Homes on behalf of a Guest, and the Club Member does not charge any rental or other fees to the Guest for the reservation, then the Guest may be eligible for all or some of the Club Member privileges and benefits that a Club Member would normally receive during the Club Member’s stay in the reserved Vacation Home. If the Guest is renting, it is the responsibility of the Member to notify Member Services when making the reservation. Member privileges and benefits cannot be extended to Guests who rent Vacation Homes from Club Members.

 

[Sandisw]

I have personally rented from professionals twice. I always pull the owner's deeds, as any renter should, and they were held by LLCs. Mine were affiliated with general real estate companies, not timeshare specific brokerages, exactly.

The contact I made to get the bookings was with professional administrative staff from a real estate company.

Professional renting is happening, and it has been for a long time. That shouldn't be particularly surprising. You can see it when you see who is buying resale deeds in the publicly available records. Plenty of these buyers are companies that aren't that hard to find.

And no, it's not against the (current) rules, but who knows what is "against the contract."

I guess that is my point. We know there are businesses out there engaging in rentals but what no one knows for sure, which is what it seems to be people are saying is that there are particular brokers, including the board sponsor who are violating the current 20 or more per membership in a big way and nothing is being done by DVC to stop it.

Again, I know there are companies out there renting, and plenty of owners who rent many reservations a year as well....look at some of the high point rentals here...

It definitely takes a lot to get to 20 in a rolling 12 month period but I think that number has remained what it has is because DVC knows that based on the terms of our contract, and the way FL timeshare law is structured, you have to define renting for "commercial purposes" such that it doesn't catch up the average owner who may indeed be using it to offset the costs of ownership by renting on a yearly basis.

 

[Sandisw]

I've always noted the DVC "Rules and Regulations" (current version 11-2021) are a relatively simple document which states it can be Amended, and the new R&Rs just need to be updated on the DVC website to be effective - obviously, there are some protections.

Oddly, just now I did notice reading in Section V. 3. b. (which is actually referencing Member Benefits and Privileges) it seems to mention DVC members are to notify DVC if a Guest is Renting from the member? Possibly only applies if requesting a specific Benefit, but the terminology is there....

Yes, that document can be amended, but the rules still have to be in line with the contract and there is nothing that allows them to set up different rules for owners at the same resort.

It is why for home resort bookings, DVC can't give direct owners an advantage over resale buyers for those bookings. The FL timeshare law states that no matter how one gets their contracts, rules for use at home resort must be the same. So, I don't think there would be any way to tell one owner you can't book a trip for a guest, when you have the explicit right to do that, until a later time than someone else.

Requiring an owner to notify them about a reservation that it is a renter vs. just a guest of the owner may very well be something that they can do and as you note (as you have posted above), it does say that owners should be doing that so that any benefits don't transfer to a renter...although, no benefits currently transfer to guests of owners either so could be why DVC hasn't done much to enforce that clause.

But, in terms of any level of priority booking for owners vs. guests/renters simply can't be put in place, unless it falls into the remedy already in existence...the special booking clause.

 

[crvetter]

b. When a Club Member uses Home Resort Vacation Points to reserve Vacation Homes on behalf of a Guest, and the Club Member does not charge any rental or other fees to the Guest for the reservation, then the Guest may be eligible for all or some of the Club Member privileges and benefits that a Club Member would normally receive during the Club Member’s stay in the reserved Vacation Home. If the Guest is renting, it is the responsibility of the Member to notify Member Services when making the reservation. Member privileges and benefits cannot be extended to Guests who rent Vacation Homes from Club Members.

Agreed, this part is specifically speaking to things that are tangential to the deeded owned interest. In the document you referenced it is the immediate section above and is essentially the items that we would consider apart of the Membership Extras. Though to be clear this document says Guests not renting may be extended to those guests; however, they never have done that from what I can tell. The other part specifically states renters will not in any way ever get access to those extras.

This does not explicitly state anything about the reservation component as that (as you suggested) is not apart of what they are referring to. Basically anything our dues pay for isn't what they are referring to.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Regardless, my comment was in response to this:


Disney prefers to have 2 rooms filled over just a single one. However that can be done, Disney wants as many rooms filled with as many human beings spending money on Disney property as possible. The question wasn’t whether that was viable, or even likely, or what that potential renter might go or do otherwise, but what Disney would prefer. My point remains: if presented with two options, one being me renting my points to someone and them staying in that room, versus me using my points to stay in that room and the potential renter paying cash for a second room, Disney will prefer the latter.

The nuances and viability and the desire are important though for Disney's determining if they care or not. Ultimately, since renting is allowed, it doesn't really matter.

 

[Dobermanns]

The 20 reservations in a rolling 12 month period. Is this per membership? Having multiple memberships would mean multiple 20 reservations before something is triggered?

 

[Sandisw]

The 20 reservations in a rolling 12 month period. Is this per membership? Having multiple memberships would mean multiple 20 reservations before something is triggered?

Yes, it is per membership but there are limits in how many points total an owner can have in total over multiple memberships..8000 points with no more than 4000 points in any one membership.

 

[xdan0920]

I hope this means they are cracking down on this practice.

 

[New Mouse]

I guess that is my point. We know there are businesses out there engaging in rentals but what no one knows for sure, which is what it seems to be people are saying is that there are particular brokers, including the board sponsor who are violating the current 20 or more per membership in a big way and nothing is being done by DVC to stop it.

Again, I know there are companies out there renting, and plenty of owners who rent many reservations a year as well....look at some of the high point rentals here...

It definitely takes a lot to get to 20 in a rolling 12 month period but I think that number has remained what it has is because DVC knows that based on the terms of our contract, and the way FL timeshare law is structured, you have to define renting for "commercial purposes" such that it doesn't catch up the average owner who may indeed be using it to offset the costs of ownership by renting on a yearly basis.

Renting to offset the costs of ownership is commercial in nature. The only way its not commercial is if your rental covers or is lower than the annual cost of dues and points for each rental. You technically can't even factor in the cost of your loan.

 

[Sandisw]

Renting to offset the costs of ownership is commercial in nature. The only way its not commercial is if your rental covers or is lower than the annual cost of dues and points for each rental. You technically can't even factor in the cost of your loan.

Except renting is expressly allowed under FL law and our contracts so for the purposes of DVC ownership the word commercial does not apply in the sense you state.

DVD has determined what it means to engage in using a membership for commercial purposes..currently the 20 reservations…which is what they say triggers a review.

Not all owners have to like that but DVD has decided, for now, thst is what makes the difference between our right to rent and the commercial aspect, thst is what it is.

 

[Genie+]

Back over a decade ago when DVC amended the POS regarding commercial renting and the 20 reservation limits, the last paragraph added was:

This policy is not intended, and shall not be deemed, either (i) to constitute an exclusive act or statement by the Association regarding any breach of the commercial activity prohibitions set forth in the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement, or (ii) to be an exhaustive list of all activities that shall be deemed to be commercial activity. Accordingly, the Association reserves the right to promulgate such additional rules or to take such additional actions or measures as it deems appropriate with respect to any breach of such prohibitions.
Florida timeshare law seems friendly regarding rentals but I cannot find any requirements to allow commercial renting. FL timeshare law says management has to look out for the owners’ interests, and any changes have to apply broadly.



Above is SIX Grand Floridian reservations, all for the same room Dec 16-23, 2023.

A reasonable person might think renting out your DVC contract(s) more than you actually use it for personal use (self, family, friends, ie - known acquaintances) is tipping into commercial activity.

The only hard part of this question is what can actually be done about it.

Data from https://www.dvcrentalpros.com/confirmed-reservation-aggregator

 

[take36]

Back over a decade ago when DVC amended the POS regarding commercial renting and the 20 reservation limits, the last paragraph added was:

This policy is not intended, and shall not be deemed, either (i) to constitute an exclusive act or statement by the Association regarding any breach of the commercial activity prohibitions set forth in the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement, or (ii) to be an exhaustive list of all activities that shall be deemed to be commercial activity. Accordingly, the Association reserves the right to promulgate such additional rules or to take such additional actions or measures as it deems appropriate with respect to any breach of such prohibitions.
Florida timeshare law seems friendly regarding rentals but I cannot find any requirements to allow commercial renting. FL timeshare law says management has to look out for the owners’ interests, and any changes have to apply broadly.

View attachment 764190

Above is SIX Grand Floridian reservations, all for the same room Dec 16-23, 2023.

A reasonable person might think renting out your DVC contract(s) more than you actually use it for personal use (self, family, friends, ie - known acquaintances) is tipping into commercial activity.

The only hard part of this question is what can actually be done about it.

Is this from a single rental site? I believe there are 30 total theme park views at VGF2? 20% being used at “commercial” does not seem too bad? But there are other brokers doing the same thing so maybe even more are up for rent.

I guess if you are one of the people unable to get that room for those dates it’s bad. Happens to me often but I’m ok with cash or offsite as I don’t have enough points to fund every trip I want. But I feel the frustration and this does seem like an easy “scapegoat.”

Hopefully more dvc resorts opening helps the owners by allowing more places to use points as renting for profit isn’t going away.

 

[Sandisw]

Is this from a single rental site? I believe there are 30 total theme park views at VGF2? 20% being used at “commercial” does not seem too bad? But there are other brokers doing the same thing so maybe even more are up for rent.

I guess if you are one of the people unable to get that room for those dates it’s bad. Happens to me often but I’m ok with cash or offsite as I don’t have enough points to fund every trip I want. But I feel the frustration and this does seem like an easy “scapegoat.”

Hopefully more dvc resorts opening helps the owners by allowing more places to use points as renting for profit isn’t going away.

The link was now added to the data.

https://www.dvcrentalpros.com/confirmed-reservation-aggregator

 

[DonMacGregor]

The link was now added to the data.

https://www.dvcrentalpros.com/confirmed-reservation-aggregator

Huge questions about that site and the accuracy of the listings. Right off the bat, the first three pages contain listings that are for confirmed reservations who's dates have already passed (some up to 6 weeks ago). Obviously not very contemporaneous.

On the flip side, there sure do seem to be a good number of AKL Value reservations on there...

 

[take36]

The link was now added to the data.

https://www.dvcrentalpros.com/confirmed-reservation-aggregator

Thanks! Let me see if my dates are being hogged by specs reservations lol.

 

[crisi]

Except renting is expressly allowed under FL law and our contracts so for the purposes of DVC ownership the word commercial does not apply in the sense you state.

DVD has determined what it means to engage in using a membership for commercial purposes..currently the 20 reservations…which is what they say triggers a review.

Not all owners have to like that but DVD has decided, for now, thst is what makes the difference between our right to rent and the commercial aspect, thst is what it is.

But renting FOR PROFIT - any profit - even covering in excess of the dues on those points to pay for extra points is prohibited by the contract. To the best of my knowledge, Florida law does not guarantee you can rent for profit, only that you can rent to cover your costs. U.S. Code defines commercial primarily through the use of the word "profit" - and while we argue what profit is here, it certainly kicks in if you are covering more than the cost of dues and the amortized cost of the points you use for that reservation only. In other words, to the best of my knowledge, there is no guarantee you can rent points to cover the cost of the points you use.

That doesn't mean Disney will change their "20 rentals a year" - but that rule is very old and its based on an old system - when that was put in place I don't think there was internet booking and Disney's ability to pull data from their systems to analyze was still in its infancy as far as DVC is concerned. Subsequent system modernization and tools make a different approach (such as proportion of points you travel on where you are the lead guest or the lead guest on a concurrent reservation over several years) much more possible than it was twenty years ago. Automation makes sending out warning letters much easier as well. And we haven't heard (as far as I know) of them enforcing even the 20 rentals rule in the past few years.

That doesn't mean they will do it. It is fairly likely that this was simply a CM overstepping - although overstepping in this manner means someone has a least heard about the commercial clause and its being talked about by CMs, you don't make that up out of whole cloth. And, as was pointed out, the OP was asking MS to do something MS DOESN'T do - talk to a non-member (and shouldn't do, MS is understaffed and busy enough with members). But I think that legally they can - as long as they permit renting to cover the cost of dues and amortized points. Moreover, I think if they did do it, they would go after the people who are really running rental businesses - those people who have maximum points (or even more than maximum points but spread over several owners) and those people who are buying, stripping, and selling. Not your average user who travels on their own points regularly and rents (or gives) their points out a few times a year. And I doubt they'd go hard or consistent - they'd target a few high profile rental businesses, audit the memberships, cancel the reservations, and cool the rental market, repeating that as often as they determine they should to keep the rental market where Disney wants it (and who knows where that is). That's functionally what they did last time with the 20 rentals rule - they put a few people out of business, cooled the market, made the membership that was complaining about rentals happy, and then nothing more that was visible.

Someone upthread pointed out that we all got the notice on 20 rentals a year when it was announced. I don't think I ever got anything other than what I heard on the board. With 150 points, it really doesn't apply to me, so its possible I wasn't paying any attention, but I'm fairly certain I never was informed with anything as formal as a letter. Maybe there was a notice on DVCmember.com, but since I go there twice a year at most, I wouldn't have seen it.

 

[crvetter]

Back over a decade ago when DVC amended the POS regarding commercial renting and the 20 reservation limits, the last paragraph added was:

This policy is not intended, and shall not be deemed, either (i) to constitute an exclusive act or statement by the Association regarding any breach of the commercial activity prohibitions set forth in the Declaration of Condominium and Membership Agreement, or (ii) to be an exhaustive list of all activities that shall be deemed to be commercial activity. Accordingly, the Association reserves the right to promulgate such additional rules or to take such additional actions or measures as it deems appropriate with respect to any breach of such prohibitions.
Florida timeshare law seems friendly regarding rentals but I cannot find any requirements to allow commercial renting. FL timeshare law says management has to look out for the owners’ interests, and any changes have to apply broadly.

View attachment 764190

Above is SIX Grand Floridian reservations, all for the same room Dec 16-23, 2023.

A reasonable person might think renting out your DVC contract(s) more than you actually use it for personal use (self, family, friends, ie - known acquaintances) is tipping into commercial activity.

The only hard part of this question is what can actually be done about it.

Data from https://www.dvcrentalpros.com/confirmed-reservation-aggregator

This is 3 reservations I'm betting that are listed at 2 different brokers.

 

[Genie+]

This is 3 reservations I'm betting that are listed at 2 different brokers.
View attachment 764338

Aah. But wait, can somebody do that? Wouldn’t the broker want some type of commitment to the listing?

 

[Sandisw]

But renting FOR PROFIT - any profit - even covering in excess of the dues on those points to pay for extra points is prohibited by the contract. To the best of my knowledge, Florida law does not guarantee you can rent for profit, only that you can rent to cover your costs. U.S. Code defines commercial primarily through the use of the word "profit" - and while we argue what profit is here, it certainly kicks in if you are covering more than the cost of dues and the amortized cost of the points you use for that reservation only. In other words, to the best of my knowledge, there is no guarantee you can rent points to cover the cost of the points you use.

That doesn't mean Disney will change their "20 rentals a year" - but that rule is very old and its based on an old system - when that was put in place I don't think there was internet booking and Disney's ability to pull data from their systems to analyze was still in its infancy as far as DVC is concerned. Subsequent system modernization and tools make a different approach (such as proportion of points you travel on where you are the lead guest or the lead guest on a concurrent reservation over several years) much more possible than it was twenty years ago. Automation makes sending out warning letters much easier as well. And we haven't heard (as far as I know) of them enforcing even the 20 rentals rule in the past few years.

That doesn't mean they will do it. It is fairly likely that this was simply a CM overstepping - although overstepping in this manner means someone has a least heard about the commercial clause and its being talked about by CMs, you don't make that up out of whole cloth. And, as was pointed out, the OP was asking MS to do something MS DOESN'T do - talk to a non-member (and shouldn't do, MS is understaffed and busy enough with members). But I think that legally they can - as long as they permit renting to cover the cost of dues and amortized points. Moreover, I think if they did do it, they would go after the people who are really running rental businesses - those people who have maximum points (or even more than maximum points but spread over several owners) and those people who are buying, stripping, and selling. Not your average user who travels on their own points regularly and rents (or gives) their points out a few times a year. And I doubt they'd go hard or consistent - they'd target a few high profile rental businesses, audit the memberships, cancel the reservations, and cool the rental market, repeating that as often as they determine they should to keep the rental market where Disney wants it (and who knows where that is). That's functionally what they did last time with the 20 rentals rule - they put a few people out of business, cooled the market, made the membership that was complaining about rentals happy, and then nothing more that was visible.

Someone upthread pointed out that we all got the notice on 20 rentals a year when it was announced. I don't think I ever got anything other than what I heard on the board. With 150 points, it really doesn't apply to me, so its possible I wasn't paying any attention, but I'm fairly certain I never was informed with anything as formal as a letter. Maybe there was a notice on DVCmember.com, but since I go there twice a year at most, I wouldn't have seen it.

I don't think that is accurate. Any rental will give you a profit in the technical terms there is no way to allow a rental and then say it can't be above dues. Where in the contract does it say you can't make a "profit" when it defines our rights to use our membership for rentals? I can't seem to find that...but please share if I have missed it.

The contract does not say you can't make a profit. It says that one can't rent for "commercial purposes"...meaning, that you can't rent so much that you have turned it into a business...and that is what is prohibited.

Even the post with the confirmed reservations may or may not be a violation if all of those are being offered by different owners, on different memberships and just seeing that doesn't tell us that. Just because we have not heard about owners being notified of being in violation, doesn't mean it is not happening, does it?

Again, @drusba really laid out all the specifics which people need to go back and read because it explains the words that matter. I know @CarolMN linked it earlier but I will link it again..

https://www.disboards.com/threads/a...-email-response-from-ms.3919744/post-64837406

Now, I do agree that the 20 reservations limit that is currently in place to trigger a membership may be outdated and with the ease of securing rentals via the internet...whether it be brokers, FB, or the disboards...or any other sites out there...DVC may need to look into updating the terms if they believe that there are many memberships out there getting close to or violating the rules...and no one has yet to confirm that DVC is not doing that.

In terms of notice...it was included in an updated POS (IIRC)...the multi-site one? And then that change was noticed and shared via websites.

Playing devil's advocate.... I could very easily be the owner of 4 of those 6 resort studio rentals posted above since I have three memberships...two which have VGF points...for the record, they are not mine, but if they were, and DVC checked my account, I would not be even close to meeting the renting for "commercial purposes" rule, if all I had was four reservations on my account in a 12 month period that I said I would be renting.

Again, I am not saying that the rental market hasn't exploded and that in the past year or two we are seeing more spec rentals happen, but DVC can not step in and stop those.

Now they do have this ability:

32. Special Season Preference List shall mean any reservation list established by Member Services from time to time for high demand Use Days at a given DVC Resort created for the purpose of allowing Club Members to have an opportunity to reserve these Use Days

But, that just means all owners have access and if someone who wants to rent it gets chosen, then those spec rentals will still be there.

It's been mentioned several times...as long as an owner's name is on a reservation...no matter how many trips are on a membership...it can't be considered anything but an owner using it for their own purpose.

I get that people are frustrated with not being able to get a room and then to see it listed for rent. And, maybe what we will see DVC do, if they do anything, is start requiring members to let MS know it is a rental, by adding that to the booking option. I know it does say "guest is not a DVC owner", but maybe they will add "guest is a renter".

 

[Sandisw]

Aah. But wait, can somebody do that? Wouldn’t the broker want some type of commitment to the listing?

When I rented in 2020, I did not owe the broker anything if I decided to pull my points after they were listed as available....don't know if the rules are any different for confirmed reservations though.