Current owners: Do you feel that renters are impacting resort availability?

[T00dles]

The CFW bookings we're seeing within the 7 month window are direct points only, correct?

Anyone tested this?

 

[Genie+]

The CFW bookings we're seeing within the 7 month window are direct points only, correct?

Anyone tested this?

The Cabins only show up on my direct contract. The option doesn’t exist on my resale.

 

[Bearval]

I think the cost differential between studios and 1 BRs though is valid - a 1 BR is substantially different and better than a studio. I’m not sure devaluing a room with more amenities and adding value to a room with less amenities is a solution.

I don't feel the one bedroom is "worth" double the points of a studio. The gap appears larger than it should be. By decreasing the one bedroom by as little as 1 or 2 points and increasing the studio by the same it may generate enough demand to balance out the inventory.

 

[Genie+]

Rack rates for 1BRs are mostly ~1.5 times the cost of corresponding studio, sometimes as low as 1.3 times the cost.

1BR is generally twice the size of studio and appliances making it better appointed. Why does WDW value these different from the point charts? I think it has to do with occupancy, but why isn’t that reflected on point charts too.

 

[CarolynFH]

I don't feel the one bedroom is "worth" double the points of a studio. The gap appears larger than it should be. By decreasing the one bedroom by as little as 1 or 2 points and increasing the studio by the same it may generate enough demand to balance out the inventory.

The “war” against the original 2020 points charts was fought because they tried to reallocate points across villa sizes. Even though in that case they were increasing studios and 1BR and decreasing 2BR, the issue is the same, and I agree with many who say that it’s not legal under the rules and regulations for the condo associations. It is allowed in the trust that FWC are part of.

See this thread for extensive discussion: https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...to-stop-revert-the-2020-reallocation.3726101/

 

[CarolynFH]

Rack rates for 1BRs are mostly ~1.5 times the cost of corresponding studio, sometimes as low as 1.3 times the cost.

1BR is generally twice the size of studio and appliances making it better appointed. Why does WDW value these different from the point charts? I think it has to do with occupancy, but why isn’t that reflected on point charts too.

When DVC developed the points charts for the original DVC (OKW) it appears they valued villas based on square footage - 1BR are twice as large as studios, so they cost twice as many points. And remember, originally both studios and 1BR slept the same number of guests, 4. I don’t think any studios slept 5 until the 2016-17 BWV/BCV refurbs that added the single Murphy under the TV - and 1BR still slept only 4. They followed that pattern of points allocations as DVC grew. And they can’t really go back and change it now because the total number of points for each resort condo association is fixed - see my post above. All they can do is assign points values differently in new resorts going forward.

 

[Bearval]

The “war” against the original 2020 points charts was fought because they tried to reallocate points across villa sizes. Even though in that case they were increasing studios and 1BR and decreasing 2BR, the issue is the same, and I agree with many who say that it’s not legal under the rules and regulations for the condo associations. It is allowed in the trust that FWC are part of.

See this thread for extensive discussion: https://www.disboards.com/threads/w...to-stop-revert-the-2020-reallocation.3726101/

If I remember correctly one major issue was that the total number of points for the resorts also increased which would have lead to DVC having surplus rooms they then could rent out for cash.

 

[lowlight]

Interesting early availability for the fort wilderness cabins. At the time this was pulled, most weeknights in October - November still have ~25 cabins unbooked. Yet Friday and Saturday nights are completely full for 6 weeks straight. Is this just members being members or....something else?

View attachment 854256

The prolific spec renter has 15 confirmed reservations for CFW on a third party website already. Most are 1-4 days in length. None are weekends, leading me to believe something is up with those weekends.

 

[ILoveMyDVC]

Oh, it can be done. I can do it. That's not the issue at all. The question is, where is the proof that it's being done? That was the question on the table. I can't see where the investment to develop it v. ROI would be worth it. People don't build things like this for free, and it's not hundreds of dollars to develop something like this.

I see these kinds of things thrown around on the web all the time. "Oh they just have a bot." because it's become a buzz word that people think they understand. What they don't understand is that these things cost $$$ to develop. LOTS of $$$. There's no $ in renting DVC rooms. Not the kind of money that the people that write REAL bots are willing to invest in.

We can certainly end this conversation in the thread as far as I'm concerned as it's sort of a tangent I guess. I don't think there are any real bots in use unless somebody can prove it. If somebody can, we have a whole 'nother Pandora's Box because THEN DVC is not living up to their obligation in securing our accounts.

I was working on my second citizenship. The consulates only open the window on one day for the 'next" month- which is years out. It only opens ~ 20-25 slots. People peddle bots for that so the can't be too hard to build.

 

[Bearval]

Oh, it can be done. I can do it. That's not the issue at all. The question is, where is the proof that it's being done? That was the question on the table. I can't see where the investment to develop it v. ROI would be worth it. People don't build things like this for free, and it's not hundreds of dollars to develop something like this.

I see these kinds of things thrown around on the web all the time. "Oh they just have a bot." because it's become a buzz word that people think they understand. What they don't understand is that these things cost $$$ to develop. LOTS of $$$. There's no $ in renting DVC rooms. Not the kind of money that the people that write REAL bots are willing to invest in.

We can certainly end this conversation in the thread as far as I'm concerned as it's sort of a tangent I guess. I don't think there are any real bots in use unless somebody can prove it. If somebody can, we have a whole 'nother Pandora's Box because THEN DVC is not living up to their obligation in securing our accounts

Oh, it can be done. I can do it. That's not the issue at all. The question is, where is the proof that it's being done? That was the question on the table. I can't see where the investment to develop it v. ROI would be worth it. People don't build things like this for free, and it's not hundreds of dollars to develop something like this.

I see these kinds of things thrown around on the web all the time. "Oh they just have a bot." because it's become a buzz word that people think they understand. What they don't understand is that these things cost $$$ to develop. LOTS of $$$. There's no $ in renting DVC rooms. Not the kind of money that the people that write REAL bots are willing to invest in.

We can certainly end this conversation in the thread as far as I'm concerned as it's sort of a tangent I guess. I don't think there are any real bots in use unless somebody can prove it. If somebody can, we have a whole 'nother Pandora's Box because THEN DVC is not living up to their obligation in securing our accounts.

You want proof? Why do you think when you try and log on to some sites they make you do CAPTCHA? That is to make sure you are a human and not a computer program, also known as a bot when used like this to log on to websites. Also have you recently been on a website and used the " chat" feature to talk to someone? Chances are especially if it is a car dealership you are talking to a "chatbot" and not a real person.

 

[tjkraz]

I see these kinds of things thrown around on the web all the time. "Oh they just have a bot." because it's become a buzz word that people think they understand. What they don't understand is that these things cost $$$ to develop. LOTS of $$$. There's no $ in renting DVC rooms. Not the kind of money that the people that write REAL bots are willing to invest in.

Oh really?

The prevailing rates for DVC Point rentals are around $24 each. Want to stay in a Grand Floridian room that costs 20 point...the rental cost is around $480. Certainly much better than Disney prices of $800-1000 per night plus 12% tax.

There's a rental website that currently has AKV Value studios listed for $287 per night. Again, pretty good rate for a Disney Deluxe resort. The thing is, that Value studio costs only 7 points per night. This rental is actually priced at FORTY-ONE dollars per point.

So maybe you're thinking "eh, that's just one member trying to get a rate that nobody will ever pay." The problem is, this same website currently has 228 confirmed reservations available to rent for AKV Value studios.

Let me repeat that. TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY EIGHT RESERVATIONS. For Value Studios. All of them priced substantially higher than $24 per point. The same website has 65 Standard View Jambo Studios available and 3 (yes, 3) Jambo Savanna Studios.

There are only 8 dedicated value studios and 10 lockoffs at AKV. This one website is currently holding 362 room nights across the next 11 months, an average of more than one SV villa per night. They are holding--unrented--6-12% of all value studio availability. And that doesn't even include however many reservations they've already rented for dates between now and March 2025.

The same website also has 103 Standard View BW Studios vs 41 Garden / Pool and 3 BW view. At BLT, 50 standard view studio confirmed reservations available vs 21 lake and 1 theme park. They have 82 Beach Club studio reservations representing 402 room nights. At Riviera, there are 20 reservations for Tower Studios, 59 for Standard View Studios and 5 for preferred studio.

On the few where I did the math, some were $25 per point. Some were $27 per point. Some were $35 per point.

But if you think there aren't people targeting rooms where they can get $35-41 per point, you're being naive. The total asking price for those 228 AKV Value Studios is over $122,000. If we grant that they are renting for a premium of just 20-30%, it's absolutely worthwhile for professional renters to target those rooms. And it's clearly happening.

 

[Chuck S]

This makes me even happier to own at a relatively low demand resort where the only "special" booking categories are Near HH and ADA rooms, and where I am perfectly happy to stay. That is not to say I don't want to stay at BLT sometime, but I did stay at the Poly studios once, and a One Bedroom savannah view at Kidani. they were nice, but they weren't "home"

 

[Genie+]

Oh really?

The prevailing rates for DVC Point rentals are around $24 each. Want to stay in a Grand Floridian room that costs 20 point...the rental cost is around $480. Certainly much better than Disney prices of $800-1000 per night plus 12% tax.

There's a rental website that currently has AKV Value studios listed for $287 per night. Again, pretty good rate for a Disney Deluxe resort. The thing is, that Value studio costs only 7 points per night. This rental is actually priced at FORTY-ONE dollars per point.

So maybe you're thinking "eh, that's just one member trying to get a rate that nobody will ever pay." The problem is, this same website currently has 228 confirmed reservations available to rent for AKV Value studios.

Let me repeat that. TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY EIGHT RESERVATIONS. For Value Studios. All of them priced substantially higher than $24 per point. The same website has 65 Standard View Jambo Studios available and 3 (yes, 3) Jambo Savanna Studios.

There are only 8 dedicated value studios and 10 lockoffs at AKV. This one website is currently holding 362 room nights across the next 11 months, an average of more than one SV villa per night. They are holding--unrented--6-12% of all value studio availability. And that doesn't even include however many reservations they've already rented for dates between now and March 2025.

The same website also has 103 Standard View BW Studios vs 41 Garden / Pool and 3 BW view. At BLT, 50 standard view studio confirmed reservations available vs 21 lake and 1 theme park. They have 82 Beach Club studio reservations representing 402 room nights. At Riviera, there are 20 reservations for Tower Studios, 59 for Standard View Studios and 5 for preferred studio.

On the few where I did the math, some were $25 per point. Some were $27 per point. Some were $35 per point.

But if you think there aren't people targeting rooms where they can get $35-41 per point, you're being naive. The total asking price for those 228 AKV Value Studios is over $122,000. If we grant that they are renting for a premium of just 20-30%, it's absolutely worthwhile for professional renters to target those rooms. And it's clearly happening.

And these numbers don’t even include all the reservations that have already been bought for future dates. May very well double or triple that number.

A big point about bots is it wouldn’t be worth it to a personal user or occasional renter. The time or money invested would be worth it when renting on a large scale. Python/Selenium is workable for somewhat skilled people but there are plenty reasonably priced tools to make the learning curve much smaller.

 

[pixieprincess925]

Oh really?

The prevailing rates for DVC Point rentals are around $24 each. Want to stay in a Grand Floridian room that costs 20 point...the rental cost is around $480. Certainly much better than Disney prices of $800-1000 per night plus 12% tax.

There's a rental website that currently has AKV Value studios listed for $287 per night. Again, pretty good rate for a Disney Deluxe resort. The thing is, that Value studio costs only 7 points per night. This rental is actually priced at FORTY-ONE dollars per point.

So maybe you're thinking "eh, that's just one member trying to get a rate that nobody will ever pay." The problem is, this same website currently has 228 confirmed reservations available to rent for AKV Value studios.

Let me repeat that. TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY EIGHT RESERVATIONS. For Value Studios. All of them priced substantially higher than $24 per point. The same website has 65 Standard View Jambo Studios available and 3 (yes, 3) Jambo Savanna Studios.

There are only 8 dedicated value studios and 10 lockoffs at AKV. This one website is currently holding 362 room nights across the next 11 months, an average of more than one SV villa per night. They are holding--unrented--6-12% of all value studio availability. And that doesn't even include however many reservations they've already rented for dates between now and March 2025.

The same website also has 103 Standard View BW Studios vs 41 Garden / Pool and 3 BW view. At BLT, 50 standard view studio confirmed reservations available vs 21 lake and 1 theme park. They have 82 Beach Club studio reservations representing 402 room nights. At Riviera, there are 20 reservations for Tower Studios, 59 for Standard View Studios and 5 for preferred studio.

On the few where I did the math, some were $25 per point. Some were $27 per point. Some were $35 per point.

But if you think there aren't people targeting rooms where they can get $35-41 per point, you're being naive. The total asking price for those 228 AKV Value Studios is over $122,000. If we grant that they are renting for a premium of just 20-30%, it's absolutely worthwhile for professional renters to target those rooms. And it's clearly happening.

I'm all for entrepreneurship, but this is ridiculous. Isn't there a way to report this to DVC and have them deal with it? I thought commercial renting is not allowed?

 

[DonMacGregor]

And these numbers don’t even include all the reservations that have already been bought for future dates. May very well double or triple that number.

This is a point that needs more emphasis. The numbers provided above are just a contemporaneous snapshot of the current market. Those are actually rolling numbers and don't reflect all of the confirmed reservations already rented during the past 4 months, or all of the reservation that will be added over the next 8, as the 11-month window moves out. Those numbers are likely well into the thousands of room nights across a 12-month window.

 

[Grumpy by Birth]

Oh really?

The prevailing rates for DVC Point rentals are around $24 each. Want to stay in a Grand Floridian room that costs 20 point...the rental cost is around $480. Certainly much better than Disney prices of $800-1000 per night plus 12% tax.

There's a rental website that currently has AKV Value studios listed for $287 per night. Again, pretty good rate for a Disney Deluxe resort. The thing is, that Value studio costs only 7 points per night. This rental is actually priced at FORTY-ONE dollars per point.

So maybe you're thinking "eh, that's just one member trying to get a rate that nobody will ever pay." The problem is, this same website currently has 228 confirmed reservations available to rent for AKV Value studios.

Let me repeat that. TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY EIGHT RESERVATIONS. For Value Studios. All of them priced substantially higher than $24 per point. The same website has 65 Standard View Jambo Studios available and 3 (yes, 3) Jambo Savanna Studios.

There are only 8 dedicated value studios and 10 lockoffs at AKV. This one website is currently holding 362 room nights across the next 11 months, an average of more than one SV villa per night. They are holding--unrented--6-12% of all value studio availability. And that doesn't even include however many reservations they've already rented for dates between now and March 2025.

The same website also has 103 Standard View BW Studios vs 41 Garden / Pool and 3 BW view. At BLT, 50 standard view studio confirmed reservations available vs 21 lake and 1 theme park. They have 82 Beach Club studio reservations representing 402 room nights. At Riviera, there are 20 reservations for Tower Studios, 59 for Standard View Studios and 5 for preferred studio.

On the few where I did the math, some were $25 per point. Some were $27 per point. Some were $35 per point.

But if you think there aren't people targeting rooms where they can get $35-41 per point, you're being naive. The total asking price for those 228 AKV Value Studios is over $122,000. If we grant that they are renting for a premium of just 20-30%, it's absolutely worthwhile for professional renters to target those rooms. And it's clearly happening.

I'm all for entrepreneurship, but this is ridiculous. Isn't there a way to report this to DVC and have them deal with it? I thought commercial renting is not allowed?

I can't think of a clearer example of "commercial" renting than the website referred to above. I hope DVC cracks down on businesses like these.

 

[lowlight]

I can't think of a clearer example of "commercial" renting than the website referred to above. I hope DVC cracks down on businesses like these.

It’s complicated. They are using loopholes, let me explain since I’ve dealt with them before. I want to rent my points as an owner because I can’t use them this year. I go to a rental website. They tell me they will buy my points but to “book Riviera tower rooms for Presidents’ Day weekend” at 11 months and we will pay 19 a point. I do it, they list it for 32 a point on a third party timeshare rental website. How does DVC crack down on this? I agree it’s an issue and I want this one very specific company to be sued into oblivion, because they are the worst of the worst, but how? I’ll sign whatever letter of attention anyone wants to send to DVCMC, someone smarter than me needs to figure out what to say.

 

[Chuck S]

I’ll sign whatever letter of attention anyone wants to send to DVCMC, someone smarter than me needs to figure out what to say.

Just a friendly general reminder to all, that the DISBoards does not permit petition type things. It is OK to encourage people to express their views individually through calls and letters, but an organized petition is not permitted. Thanks.

That said, it should be relatively easy for DVC to cross check the dates showing on the reservations with the specific room types, since they are a very limited room type, and just see if they are all reserved by the same entity, and if they exceed the 20 rentals per membership per year threshold.

 

[lowlight]

That said, it should be relatively easy for DVC to cross check the dates showing on the reservations with the specific room types, since they are a very limited room type, and just see if they are all reserved by the same entity, and if they exceed the 20 rentals per membership per year threshold.

What if the company is just steering renters to reserve the hard to find rooms at in demand resorts on in demand weekends? That’s the loophole, they are coordinating individual members to do something instead of doing it directly themselves, although I am certain they also own a few LLC point banks that can found the way you mention.

 

[Bearval]

It’s complicated. They are using loopholes, let me explain since I’ve dealt with them before. I want to rent my points as an owner because I can’t use them this year. I go to a rental website. They tell me they will buy my points but to “book Riviera tower rooms for Presidents’ Day weekend” at 11 months and we will pay 19 a point. I do it, they list it for 32 a point on a third party timeshare rental website. How does DVC crack down on this? I agree it’s an issue and I want this one very specific company to be sued into oblivion, because they are the worst of the worst, but how? I’ll sign whatever letter of attention anyone wants to send to DVCMC, someone smarter than me needs to figure out what to say.

Unfortunately unless Disney sees it as a major hit to their bottom line they don't care.