Disgruntled members: What are the DVC-specific issues?

[john7994]

My last visit was in the first week of January 2022 (prior visit was 2017), and we had to stay off-property due to lack of resort availability (anywhere) which prompted me to look at DVC seriously as a product. To be fair, we hadn't made the decision to go to WDW until about 60 days out. We did end up closing on a direct DVC contract during our stay. In full disclosure, we have since added on two resale contracts over the past two months.

I think a key learning/reinforcement upfront, at least for me so far, DVC membership is never a guarantee nor an an entitlement to resort/room type availability, park reservations, positive park experiences, dining reservations, enhanced experiences, or any other "perk" outside of what is expressed specifically as part of the DVC product/membership agreement. Conversely, I did understand direct/resale contract differences, restrictions related to resort eligibility and seven/eleven month booking windows etc.

On the surface, this seems pretty straightforward, but I cannot stress enough to go into DVC membership "eyes wide open" and understand your style of vacationing. This is more critical than I certainly understood in the beginning. With this product, aside from ancillary perks, you are only eligible with all other owners to find a resort/room based on available inventory for the time in advance of the dates you are booking. This product is nothing like going online and booking a retail hotel room (in a larger city as an example); whereby, you have a pretty good chance of finding something / somewhere in a relatively short booking timeframe. I clearly was not prepared for this reality.

DVC rooms have limited availability and they are seasonally competitive with a wide difference in resort experiences also forcing you to potentially "settle" on something less than desirable in order to still be on property - if you get anything at all. This makes your home resort choice crucial and advance planning in annual windows (vs. months) even more important. So essentially, if you can only travel in "peak" seasons/holidays, don't have local flexibility, don't like the potential for split-stays, or don't have the time to go through advanced gyrations of wait listing, stalking, walking (or twerking); be prepared for some disappointment in the DVC product itself.

Again, this is beyond all the other "experiences" that the DVC membership/product does not guarantee or have any influence to impact. As said time and time again, DVC membership benefits are constantly changing. The value of the product itself, in my opinion, has many facets based on a lot of factors - most of which have been covered throughout these boards and on this thread already.

 

[Sandisw]

I would never be rude to someone with a white card who got a discount, but I can understand the frustration on a blue card member's part. Disney convinces people to pay much more for direct, partially because of "exclusive" discounts. If the discounts aren't exclusive, I can see being a little angry. That being said, your anger should be directed at Disney moreso than the white card member.

Agreed. It is really on the CMs at Disney to enforce the correct rules and why I think they have gone to the digital card for discounts.

But, I also don’t always understand comments from those who did buy resale, knowing they would be left out of certain things and then be frustrated or angry for not being included.

In the end, one has to decide first, whether DVC works for them in the world of what Disney now is…and if it does, then whether or not the potential for benefits going direct could be worth it.

 

[bakerworld]

The 50% borrow rule is limiting and currently our #1 gripe, although it hasn't effected our vacations as we've been lucky to add to reservations at the 7 month window. We looked into DVC 3 times thru the 90's and each time walked away. The first time because we didn't care for OKW (sacrilege! ) location. The 2nd time because of the WL transportation options. The 3rd time DVC wasn't enough savings. Then the recession of '08 showed up right as DVD was developing AK, BL and Aulani so DVD incentivized membership to affordability.

FYI: DVC members have a reputation for entitlement. Members have taken lamps, coffee tables, kitchen products and remote batteries, leaving villas with stained textiles and dinged furniture, about which they complain. It doesn't matter whether DVC points are bought direct or resale, occasionally there will be a glint of the CS 'stink eye'. JMO

 

[Pinnochio]

Lots of rooms are due for a full refresh and are looking very much dated.....BCV & BWV & BR to name three.....

 

[tjkraz]

Im not overtly against this since this is all spelled out in contracts up front but the 1br vs studio demand has been issue for years and they still build new resorts with the same strategy...

I don't find this to be true. Yes, the older strategy often left resorts with nearly identical numbers of Studio and One Bedroom villas. 34% of the rooms at Saratoga Springs are studios, and it has the same percentage of 1B villas. Bay Lake Tower is 31% Studio and 31% 1B.

However, here are the studio percents at the 4 newest resorts:

Polynesian: 95%, 0% 1B
Copper Creek: 36% Studio, 25% 1B
Riviera: 42% Studio, 36% 1B
Grand Floridian: 71% Studio, 13% 1B

Over the past decade, DVC has added 897 Studios to the program (including the VGF expansion) vs 280 One Bedroom villas.

 

[zavandor]

I don't find this to be true. Yes, the older strategy often left resorts with nearly identical numbers of Studio and One Bedroom villas. 34% of the rooms at Saratoga Springs are studios, and it has the same percentage of 1B villas. Bay Lake Tower is 31% Studio and 31% 1B.

However, here are the studio percents at the 4 newest resorts:

Polynesian: 95%, 0% 1B
Copper Creek: 36% Studio, 25% 1B
Riviera: 42% Studio, 36% 1B
Grand Floridian: 71% Studio, 13% 1B

Over the past decade, DVC has added 897 Studios to the program (including the VGF expansion) vs 280 One Bedroom villas.

True, and the new DLH DVC will be mostly studios and closets with beds... ehm pods.
However at CCV the situation is worst than it seem because a lot of points have been sold against the cabins and studios are in such an high demand that even at 11 months they are a problem to get during high demand times.

 

[DVCSunDevil]

Honestly, there has been a lot of negativity lately. I feel like most people are down on Disney a bit and are letting it bleed over into DVC. Personally, I think the DVC experience is still great! There have been some times when the site goes down, but generally I find the site to be pretty reliable. The only time I experienced it going down for an extended period (a couple days) is when the maintenance fee emails went out and everyone was accessing the site (I assume to pay their dues). That was annoying, but it got resolved.

The resorts are still great, the CMs are still great, and the experience is still great! If you love WDW and see yourself continuing to go in the future, you should take the leap!

 

[Leight19]

I don't find this to be true. Yes, the older strategy often left resorts with nearly identical numbers of Studio and One Bedroom villas. 34% of the rooms at Saratoga Springs are studios, and it has the same percentage of 1B villas. Bay Lake Tower is 31% Studio and 31% 1B.

However, here are the studio percents at the 4 newest resorts:

Polynesian: 95%, 0% 1B
Copper Creek: 36% Studio, 25% 1B
Riviera: 42% Studio, 36% 1B
Grand Floridian: 71% Studio, 13% 1B

Over the past decade, DVC has added 897 Studios to the program (including the VGF expansion) vs 280 One Bedroom villas.

My comment is more along the cost per night of room types which I think dominates the booking patterns. Since you said it’s gotten better I would question whether it has become easier or harder to get studios in the new resorts you listed? I would contend with exception of poly all resorts you listed are difficult to get studios (or at least much more difficult to get then 1br).

 

[mshobey]

I'm looking to purchase DVC after researching for a few years.

Unfortunately, it seems I'm jumping in at a historically low point in terms of member experience. There are daily posts from members selling or cautioning that they wouldn't buy now.

I'm trying to distinguish current DVC-specific issues from more general issues. I'm empathetic to the latter (e.g., prices, Genie+, etc) but am considering them separately.

Here are the pain points I've gathered:

1. 50% borrowing restriction.
2. Low availability
3. Technical issues with the member website

What else am I missing? What would you distinguish as disturbing, long-term trends as opposed to (hopefully) ephemeral COVID aftershock? The items above seem like they could classify as the latter which gives me a little hope in keeping my dream alive.

I have points purchased direct from DVC and thru re-sale. I am a Disney fan, but the DVC experience is mixed - it’s terrific when the process is flawless, and frustrating when its not. Disney has pushed the envelope on a digital, self-service experience and this is no different when it comes to DVC. Don’t know if it is lack of funds, quality, effort, or some combination of these factors, but the dvc portal experience is inconsistent.
What has worked well for me:

• Booking a trip (self service) using the DVC portal and with points purchased directly from DVC
• Getting a cast member live on the phone to help me (e.g., answer questions, complete a booking, change a booking)

What DVC could do better:

• Invest in DVC portal to provide a consistent experience regardless of how points where acquired (e.g., I have two contracts at the same property same use year except one is a resale contract and the other is thru DVC yet the portal will not let me complete a booking if I am using points from both contracts to complete a booking - I have to call member services each time, and I am always told they need to get ”approval”)
• Improve experience when you need to call member services (wait times are too long) - specifically, think about adding a call back function so you don’t have to stay on hold
• Provide a consistent experience regardless of how points are acquired

 

[sethschroeder]

So for context, I was commenting on people reacting rudely on FB over a dining discount.

I also wasn't endorsing rule-breaking in general, just suggesting that perhaps more civility in our world would go a long way.

Except you did essentially condone it

Never really understood why one person would get upset with the good fortune of another person. Good for them, I say! If a blue card member wants to be "mad" at anyone in this scenario, it should be themselves for a lack of grace.

You specially state you don't understand why people get upset. Well there is a specific reason why people get upset, hence why I was calling out such reasons.

Upset =/= Rude

 

[sethschroeder]

key learning/reinforcement upfront, at least for me so far, DVC membership is never a guarantee nor an an entitlement to......any other "perk" outside of what is expressed specifically as part of the DVC product/membership agreement.

This gets repeated so often here but from my view is this take is false.

There is a disclosure in place called: Membership Extras

It can be changed and update by DVC. It can also have certain things that become unavailable due to outside forces.

It clearly states in the document:

If any Benefit, or any portion of a Benefit, becomes unavailable for any reason, DVD reserves the right to substitute a replacement Benefit of a type, quality, value and term reasonably similar to the unavailable Benefit. Reservations for accommodations at a DVC Resort shall be deemed conclusively to be reasonably similar to accommodations reserved at any other property through the Program.

They likely were getting various calls on this document as well since they added specific COVID19 language to it:

NOTICE CONCERNING THE CORONAVIRUS (COVID-19) PANDEMIC: Benefits and Accommodations made available through the Disney Travel Program and Concierge Collection Program are currently experiencing interruptions due to closures at Walt Disney World Resort, Disney Land Resort, and other locations owned or managed by Disney Parks, Experiences and Products., Inc. or owned or managed by Concierge Collection Accommodations Providers. Members should visit disneyvacationclub.com for updates or contact Member Services.

It fairly plainly outlines that a benefit can not simply be removed it needs to be replaced. Others will spin this as "Disney can just remove benefits". If that were the case there would be no need for the original language above IMO. That language outlines what is to occur if something become unavailable. Now the new benefit could become "worse" because as an example going from APs to the ticket discount last year but it was viewed as close to of a replacement of ticket discounts that DVC could get.

This document also gets updated semi-regularly. I think we are on revision number 5 since April 2020.

Its good to think about DVC as in "nothing is guaranteed" for simplicity of deciding to buy. Once you buy in though its important to remember there are contracts in place to protect you as an owner and your rights/benefits. I am also one who has talked with DVC multiple times regarding point chart fluctuations including those in charge of creating the point charts themselves so its why I try to point this out as well when I see it come up around here.

 

[Sandisw]

This gets repeated so often here but from my view is this take is false.

There is a disclosure in place called: Membership Extras

It can be changed and update by DVC. It can also have certain things that become unavailable due to outside forces.

It clearly states in the document:


They likely were getting various calls on this document as well since they added specific COVID19 language to it:


It fairly plainly outlines that a benefit can not simply be removed it needs to be replaced. Others will spin this as "Disney can just remove benefits". If that were the case there would be no need for the original language above IMO. That language outlines what is to occur if something become unavailable. Now the new benefit could become "worse" because as an example going from APs to the ticket discount last year but it was viewed as close to of a replacement of ticket discounts that DVC could get.

This document also gets updated semi-regularly. I think we are on revision number 5 since April 2020.

Its good to think about DVC as in "nothing is guaranteed" for simplicity of deciding to buy. Once you buy in though its important to remember there are contracts in place to protect you as an owner and your rights/benefits. I am also one who has talked with DVC multiple times regarding point chart fluctuations including those in charge of creating the point charts themselves so its why I try to point this out as well when I see it come up around here.

You keep sharing this information but honestly, I think it is misleading to others. The POS is clear...FL timeshare law is clear...and the bottom of that document is clear. That one phrase...that they reserve the right to change things up does not guarantee you anything. It simply says that they can replace a benefit if they WANT to...not that they have to...that is a big difference.

One phrase without the context of the entire document is misleading. Here is the phrase at the bottom of the document:

The incidental benefits described in this Statement are offered to prospective purchasers of the vacation ownership plan. These benefits are available for your use for a period of three (3) years or less after the first date that the vacation ownership plan is available for your use. The availability of the incidental benefits may or may not be renewed or extended. You should not purchase an interest in the vacation ownership plan in reliance upon the continued availability or renewal or extension of these benefits.

Why do they update the language often? IMO, to update it as things happen....

You have yet to point out any actual language that says that if the AP goes away as a product, that they must replace it with another type of ticket. All it says, and what you keep referring to is that they reserve the right to replace a benefit with something else....in no way does that say we are guaranteed a thing...

For example, since AP's are currently suspended, they have reserved the right to change that to a ticket deal...which they have not...and people can't complain that it is not of equal value because that discretion relies with DVD.

As I just posted, it says the availability of benefits (which the special AP is one of them) may or may not be renewed, or extended. And that you should not purchase based on the extension of any of these benefits.

 

[Leight19]

You keep sharing this information but honestly, I think it is misleading to others. The POS is clear...FL timeshare law is clear...and the bottom of that document is clear. That one phrase...that they reserve the right to change things up does not guarantee you anything. It simply says that they can replace a benefit if they WANT to...not that they have to...that is a big difference.

One phrase without the context of the entire document is misleading. Here is the phrase at the bottom of the document:

The incidental benefits described in this Statement are offered to prospective purchasers of the vacation ownership plan. These benefits are available for your use for a period of three (3) years or less after the first date that the vacation ownership plan is available for your use. The availability of the incidental benefits may or may not be renewed or extended. You should not purchase an interest in the vacation ownership plan in reliance upon the continued availability or renewal or extension of these benefits.

Why do they update the language often? IMO, to update it as things happen....

You have yet to point out any actual language that says that if the AP goes away as a product, that they must replace it with another type of ticket. All it says, and what you keep referring to is that they reserve the right to replace a benefit with something else....in no way does that say we are guaranteed a thing...

For example, since AP's are currently suspended, they have reserved the right to change that to a ticket deal...which they have not...and people can't complain that it is not of equal value because that discretion relies with DVD.

As I just posted, it says the availability of benefits (which the special AP is one of them) may or may not be renewed, or extended. And that you should not purchase based on the extension of any of these benefits.

I’ve seen this posted before and every time it’s posted I take the opposite read as youre saying. To me this combined with the section posted in post you quoted reads they gurantee the benefit or something similar for period of 3 years. They can end any benefit after 3 years but they don’t have full control to just decide tomorrow they aren’t providing benefit they committed to without replacing with something of similar value.

This is made even worse for dvc when you add in people buying during period where benefit was suspended and benefit was included in listing still. This happened exactly for my parents who bought last year and still had language about annual pass which hadn’t been sold for over a year. They got lucky to buy in the window it was available but what dvc was doing (maybe still is I don’t have recent contract) was clearly fraudulent.

 

[sethschroeder]

It simply says that they can replace a benefit if they WANT to...not that they have to...that is a big difference.

And this is an example of where things like truth in advertising comes in. You can not pass along a disclosure document with benefits that you never intend to give. The company needs to update the document to accurately show what is being offered.

These benefits are available for your use for a period of three (3) years or less after the first date that the vacation ownership plan is available for your use.

Correct which means right now people are still signing new DVC deeds with this disclosure attached. Disney would need to remove the disclosure from new sales and then the countdown would occur.

So until that date happens where DVC starts selling with no "Membership Extras" disclosure then that will not come to pass since they have continually renewed the benefits plan.

I also think Riviera is very telling. They could have released Riviera under a new "Membership Extras Plus", made it a whole new system, and changed the language but they didn't. They kept the historical disclosure in place opting to simply continue to do smaller adjustments.

 

[BeachClub2014]

Except you did essentially condone it



You specially state you don't understand why people get upset. Well there is a specific reason why people get upset, hence why I was calling out such reasons.

Upset =/= Rude

Nope. Didn't condone it at all. I was condemning rude and boorish behavior, but we can agree to disagree on whether that translates to my "condoning" whether someone received a dining discount. I actually don't care at all about that. Good for them, I say!

And, I still don't understand why people would get upset over this. But hey, there are a lot of things in life that I don't understand.

 

[kilik64]

Nope. Didn't condone it at all. I was condemning rude and boorish behavior, but we can agree to disagree on whether that translates to my "condoning" whether someone received a dining discount. I actually don't care at all about that. Good for them, I say!

And, I still don't understand why people would get upset over this. But hey, there are a lot of things in life that I don't understand.

Because a few white card plebs getting a discount means all the blue card elite would lose the discount apparently?

 

[Marypoppins14]

Since the OP has asked for reasons members look less satisfied than in the past, I'm going only to list the reasons why I wouldn't buy right now. Since I'm not selling (yet) and I'm on a DVC specific forum it is evident for me the positives are (still) more than the negatives.

The main issue is value. I bought my contracts in 2012 and 2013 and paid $50 per point for a SSR contract and I have a blue card. I cannot use my points for cruises and other exchanges, but I don't care because the point cost is irrational, I would never use the points that way.
At the time, buying DVC was equivalent to paying slightly more than a Value hotel. My previous stays at WDW were offsite or in a value, so I bought to upgrade my vacations, get more value for my money. Now I stay in Deluxe hotels spending what I would have paid for a Value hotel. Great bargain.
Not anymore. Resale costs nearly 3 times that and if I want a blue card I'd have to pay 4 times that. DVC saves money only when comparing to deluxe hotel, which I would never pay out of pocket. I could afford it, but for the money there are more interesting vacations.
The higher cost changes the risk equation. Lose the points one year and you're spending more than renting. Lose the points twice and you're probably losing money. I don't think the savings are worth the risk anymore.


The second reason is that Disney has demonstrated they're willing to do anything to gain money at the expense of the members. I'm not talking about profit. I've always said Disney has perfected the art of extracting money and make you happy in doing so.
I'm talking about 3 disgusting episodes:
- the 2020 point charts, in which they tried to increase the lock-off premium, diminishing the value of points we purchased in order to have more rooms to rent for cash
- the 2022 point charts in which they tried to create extra points playing with seasons and when Easter falls
- at some point they started keeping the refund of property taxes instead of giving it back to resale purchaser
We're not talking about offering a good service and being paid a high rate for it. I'm talking about questionable things, allegedly illegal.


The third reason is that a WDW vacation has changed drastically. Some may be due to Covid (or better, to the failure by Disney to restore services to pre-Covid level) but Genie+ is one of the main reasons and that is here to stay. It's not that we now have to pay for something that was included, if I had to pay for the old FP+ system I'd happily do so (it would just be a price increase by another name). G+ is convoluted, stressful, bugged, irrational. I don't want to pay $15, wake up at 7am just to fail to book what I want because the app is bugged or other have been faster. My latest vacation, last December, has been the least pleasant I've ever had at WDW. I bought DVC in order to visit WDW and still have a relaxing experience, if I cannot have that, then I'd rather visit every 4 or 5 years, instead of almost yearly. At that point DVC is useless.

This post summarizes my frustrations. Added to ridiculously long wait times on the telephone, after being told that the issue at hand could not be resolved, via chat, or the website.
I have a pair of park tickets from a canceled trip last August (emergency surgery that prevented me from flying). given the G+ debacle, no way that I would enter any of the parks, after I use these tickets. May hold on to my 100 direct purchase points (2012) for solo or adults only trips every other year. still enjoy Typhoon Lagoon and the resorts are relaxing. still love my home resort at AKV, and still enjoy Disney Springs. Parks have become stressful ordeals. Who needs that? Especially after working as a front line health care provider throughout the entire pandemic, I want a respite from stress!
Eco or volunteer tourism will comprise the balance of my travel plans. I’d rather travel to improve this planet. That’s where I’m at, with my DS about to leave for college.
Chapek reverted Disney’s to the dark days in the ‘80s. My 2 cents.

 

[Ashlotte]

I would never be rude to someone with a white card who got a discount, but I can understand the frustration on a blue card member's part. Disney convinces people to pay much more for direct, partially because of "exclusive" discounts. If the discounts aren't exclusive, I can see being a little angry. That being said, your anger should be directed at Disney moreso than the white card member.

On the same token, white card members can feel angry that people with the exact same product (resale) were grandfathered in or given the opportunity to buy in at just 25 direct points to qualify for direct perks. Buying in at 25 points vs 150 is a pretty massive shift. Many of the existing blue card members spent a fraction of what the new resale members are buying, yet aren't given the same status. The tier system is unnecessary, and there were other ways to accomplish this goal of steering people towards direct purchases, such as free perks at the time of purchase.

 

[Sandisw]

I’ve seen this posted before and every time it’s posted I take the opposite read as youre saying. To me this combined with the section posted in post you quoted reads they gurantee the benefit or something similar for period of 3 years. They can end any benefit after 3 years but they don’t have full control to just decide tomorrow they aren’t providing benefit they committed to without replacing with something of similar value.

This is made even worse for dvc when you add in people buying during period where benefit was suspended and benefit was included in listing still. This happened exactly for my parents who bought last year and still had language about annual pass which hadn’t been sold for over a year. They got lucky to buy in the window it was available but what dvc was doing (maybe still is I don’t have recent contract) was clearly fraudulent.

Except is says 3 years or less. Not 3 years. FL timeshare law insists that if the developer wants to offer an alternative when something is suspended, that language must be included so people are aware that at any time DVD can offer an alternative without having to complete change the document if it chooses.

For example, when they offer DVC owners the chance last year to do the buy 4 get 2 free tickets. It didn’t need to be part of the document because it was an alternative to the APs being sold.

Again, there is no language anywhere in the law that guarantees you as an owner the right to any type of incidental program.

Something that says it can be canceled..language from the POS..or eliminated,,. the membership extras agreement..is not vague.

It’s direct that no benefit is required to stay on force and don’t buy expecting any type of program to be offered.

 

[Leight19]

Except is says 3 years or less. Not 3 years. FL timeshare law insists that if the developer wants to offer an alternative when something is suspended, that language must be included so people are aware that at any time DVD can offer an alternative without having to complete change the document if it chooses.

For example, when they offer DVC owners the chance last year to do the buy 4 get 2 free tickets. It didn’t need to be part of the document because it was an alternative to the APs being sold.

Again, there is no language anywhere in the law that guarantees you as an owner the right to any type of incidental program.

Something that says it can be canceled..language from the POS..or eliminated,,. the membership extras agreement..is not vague.

It’s direct that no benefit is required to stay on force and don’t buy expecting any type of program to be offered.

So your interpretation is they can advertise benefits and put them in new contracts when they haven’t been offered in 2 years? That is blatant fraud and no language around “benefits may change” protects against misrepresenting what’s currently offered.