Do the funky chicken?

[Another Voice]

“LOOKING like a movie set and FEELING like a movie set are different”

That’s pretty much spot on. To me that’s really closely aligned with the SUCCESS of the show or not. Pulling off the “magic” (I hate that term but it’s good shorthand) isn’t all that easy. Not every restaurant or attraction or resort necessarily succeeds. I also think a particular “show” might work for some people and might not work for others. Much like there are movies that people really like and people who really dislike that same movie.

To answer your question, Mr. Matt, “If, in your opinion, the value resorts did offer that level of show you want to see, but offered fewer amenities, and therefore charged a lower price, would you be ok with it?” – that’s been pretty much my point all along. As a show, Dixie Landing is much more successful than the Grand Floridian. Money doesn’t matter as much as imagination and effort.

And that’s my problem with Pop Century. There’s no show there; it’s not a Disney resort in the “classic Disney” sense. To me, Disney is a style and an approach to development. Something like Pop Century is Disney® - a branded product that lacks that old time sensibility. It’s Disney in the same sense those breakfast cereals are Disney, it’s nothing but marketing. Yes, people will enjoy staying there. Yes, it’s nice that people can afford to stay there. Yes, it’s nice people will enjoy the “magic” of staying on property. But – the place is lacking that “one step more” element that Disney used to be so good at.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

If, in your opinion, the value resorts did offer that level of show you want to see, but offered fewer amenities, and therefore charged a lower price, would you be ok with it? For instance, lets say ASMovies, in your opinion, made you feel like it was that movie set you are looking for. Maybe it only had fast food, but it was of Pecos Bill caliber. There's not a spa, or exercise room, etc. COULD that fit in with your vision of what WDW should be?

I’m sorry, but I had to quote the entire paragraph. You see, it’s so nicely put. And it’s right on the money. It’s perfect. And it would fit in just fine. Just as well as the Golf Resort or those cute little huts known as the Shopping Village. Fast food, but done as well as fast food could possibly be done.

I guess I see your point about Pecos Bill’s, but at the same time I cut them a little slack. I mean, how else are you going to do fast food? And remember, I’m not looking for authentic. And I’m not looking for just the look. I’m looking for feel. And I really don’t know how you can dress up fast food much better. Any of the fast food joints in MK. They’re all fairly good, I’d say (with the exception of Cosmic Ray and that thing between Main Street and Tomorrowland). I especially like the Columbia House. It just has a feel to it. I still can’t explain it, but it works!!

Anyway, if they had done just a little of that for the economies I’d be happy. Instead of a GIANT primary colored reel of film, how about something reminiscent of a sound stage? A back lot kind of thing. You know, unpainted walls, half decorated sets, etc. Or something along those lines. That would have been PERFECT being situated by the Studios!!! But they chose to decorate it instead. Or maybe it wasn’t a choice. Maybe they really think that they did their job. In other words maybe they really don’t know the difference!!!

3- While I recognize the difference in show among restaurants and resorts, and accept it, its only because Disney still offers me the choice as to which level I want. I don't have to stay at AS, and I don't have to eat at Pecos.

Well, here we differ once again. You see, they are not offering you Pecos Bill’s. They are offing you Cosmic Ray, which we ALL agree pretty much stinks!! If they did offer up a well themed out experience I wouldn’t mind at all.

And you are right. I don’t have to go there. And again, if they were an anomaly I’d probably still complain a little, but let’s face it, one bummer in all that wonderful magic ain’t too bad a batting average. But it isn’t an anomaly. It isn’t just one disappointment out of a thousand. IT IS A TREND!!! Heck!! Even that doesn’t explain it!! It’s more than a trend; it’s a 180-degree turn in policy! In their founding philosophy! And it is that philosophy (Walt’s vision) that I fell in love with. And that is why I am bothered by it, even if I never cast eyes on it. Just knowing it’s there shows me how really far from Walt’s vision we have come. And as evidenced by Pop Century, it’s getting worse!!!!!!

 

[Another Voice]

But aren’t these details the tangible examples of what we’re trying to talk about. To me, it’s illuminating to talk about a specific production, using specific features and specific elements that do and do not work. It’s certainly better than the “I find it magically, so shut up” argument that too many discussions end up in.

No one here is arguing that everything at WDW is rotten. And no one is arguing (with the exception of Pirate perhaps) that everything at WDW is absolutely perfect. Everyone judges each new project based on their perception of “Disney standards” – a highly nebulous and debatable benchmark. Those standards can and do change over time, but there is always a base line that people think of when they hear “Disney”.

There is a reason that Disney is popular – and that reason didn’t just show up one day with the brand fairy. Disney today would not be what it is without decades of work. Work that went back long before even the Baron and I were born, Mr. Scoop. Perhaps it is worthwhile to look at the reason for that success, see if it still holds true today, and then if today’s products have those qualities.

The Poly was a big hit in 1971 and remains so today. That can be judged by occupancy and by the room rates and by all the postings you see around here. But no one has warm fuzzy memories of the Howard Johnson’s that opened in the Hotel Plaza in 1971. And that hotel served the EXACT functions that the Pop Century place is supposed to – value priced rooms, a strong brand to convey quality, and close to all the “magic” of WDW. They even had express bus service directly to the TTC, something that Pop Century may not get.

Perhaps it’s just worth the effort to figure out why one hotel survived and the other limps along through owner after owner. Perhaps that way we can avoid the same mistakes and ensure the future projects are successful. Just makes smart business sense, doesn’t it?

Some people seem to believe that Disney is anything labeled with a “Disney” sticker. It’s not. No one cares about brand image, people in the end care about the product. Calling things Disney’s California Adventure or Disney’s Atlantis sure didn’t ensure their success. Insisting that people love something for its brand is the quickest way to ruin a company I can think of.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Scoop:

I really have to throw in with AV (surprise, surprise!). If it weren't for his particular example of the Golf Resort I would still be thinking in terms of price and amenities. I would still 'feel' the same way, but not know why. But now I can verbalize my feelings. They are now more tangible.

And surprisingly, my position has changed as a result. I now look at the resorts individually, not by class. Very important. Just because a resort is in the moderate or economy class does not make it a non-Disney experience. As evidenced by Dixie Landings. Again it was AV's specific example that made me take a really hard look at the place. And I found that my blanket pigeonholing was mistaken (this old dog learned a new trick!). While I still maintain that Ei$ner deliberately instituted a caste system and threw out Disney Standards and replaced them with Industry Standards, I now understand what the root cause was. It was not price and it was not amenities. Quite simply it was Walt's Disney vs. Disney ®!! They forgot, or chose to ignore, what a Disney experience should be.

Still don't believe me? Take a look at Adventureland today. Just what is it supposed to be? And please don't get me wrong. I'm not deriding Aladdin. Remember, I'm one of the few that accepted and even thanked Ei$ner for the extra. What I am blasting is the terrible clash of themes within that area. Kind of makes it look like a decorated amusement park instead of giving the guest that 'movie set' feel.

 

[YoHo]

Landbaron, I would like to point out the Pirate's Caribbean/Spanish Fort look has never and will never Match with the look of the Tikiroom/Swiss Family robinson. they simply do not match at all. and while I haven't seen the current adventureland yet, I've seen DL's which has Jasmines reading area which blends in nicely. So


Oh and SPeaking of DL. If I recall correctly, DL has exacly 1 UNo Eins Fast food resturant like Pecos Bills. It is Pinochios in Fantasyland. every single other resturant with the exception of blue bayoo is more Cafeteria style. There are also a few food stands, but they tend to serve nicer fair. in fact Pecos Bills and Tomorrowland Terrace are both what I would call an offense to the SHOW of Disneyland's eateries. I would never use them as a good example.


(AV and others, please correct me if I overstate. It was the impression I got that Disneyland has vastly Superior "Fast" food compared to MK.)

 

[dragonflymanor]

DVC, I totally agree with you on Adventureland. The attempt to tie in Alladin (which they should have done 10 years ago), I think is misplaced. Though they were attempting to create Agraba, to place a desert location across the “street” from the Jungle Cruise and the Treehouse just blows it. It has become the “decorated” area.

Now for the Pirate in us all…

If you turn your back on Jungle Cruise and Treehouse, and position yourself so you don’t see the Tiki Room, then there’s that ole’ Disney Magic!

However, I’m not a Pirate (nor do I play one on T.V.) and I can’t help but see the jumble of conflicting stories. (maybe if Agraba were supposed to be on the banks of the Nile???)

Now, compare and contrast Adventureland with the Splash Mountain/Big Thunder areas. I think while Splash doesn’t quite fit with the desert motif of Big Thunder, the two do play well beside each other for some strange reason. It’s probably the earthiness of the two attractions. Dirt and Dirt go together, I guess.

A.V. I would also agree with you, the history of Disney is part of what makes one hotel great (it’s a Disney hotel) and one just another place to lay your head that happens to be next door to the park. It’s that overused management-o-the-day word “Synergy”. It’s the tie we have to our childhood where each afternoon lasted a year and summers would never end. That came from the films, the television shows, the tight control Walt had of the Disney brand that wouldn’t allow him to make a “serious” film though he wanted to (by “serious” I mean something not appropriate for the whole family). Those memories are what puts some in the frame of mind to accept a Motel 6 with a fancy paint job to be a “true Disney experience”, while others still look at the Motel 6 and hang their heads wondering where it all went wrong.

Watch Zorro on Vault Disney – same set, same costume (heck, same basic story) each and every episode. Does it make it cheap to produce? Yep. Does it make it Disney? Not because of it, but in spite of it. The Disney gift is to take something ordinary and make it something that hits just the right amount of sappy sentimentality, humor, and adventure in many people.

I think that’s what’s lacking in places that “have it” and places that don’t. The places that “have it” have the right blend of elements (color, style, story) to allow us to dream. Those that don’t end up as just another decorated place.

What’s funny in all this is that there are really very few places to eat at WDW that really meet the “Disney Experience” and they all end up being the sit-down places. I can’t get immersed in my Western town themed environment while looking at my Cheesburger and Fries with a Diet Coke and packs of Ketchup. However, I can get into at Pioneer Hall.

So, discussing Pecos Bill’s or Cosmic Ray’s should really come down to the following question:

“When you sit down at ________, do you feel that you can really pretend to be in another place and another time, or do you feel like you are just at another neat looking restaurant”


BTW, I think Rainforest Café has it….

 

[YoHo]

DScoop, why oh why do you keep seemingly to ignore what Jeffjewel and others have pointed out?
in 1971, the Contemporary Garden wings were unique, they WERE Deluxe. they were everything you say they were not. HECK, they were exciting to me in 1990. The only Sin there is that no change has been made and that is firmly at the feet of Eisner and no one else.

The Disney Inn was purposly Designed as that to appeal to those that did not want a themed resort. In fact the Contemporary Garden wings and the Disney Inn were done very well WHEN THEY WERE BUILT.

I just don't understand why you keep bringing this up when you're argument has been deflected so well.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

… and agree to disagree!!

If you turn your back on Jungle Cruise and Treehouse, and position yourself so you don't see the Tiki Room, then there's that ole' Disney Magic!

WHOA!!! That's way too much effort! I'll leave that kind of 'selective' magic to my good friend the Pirate!!

Scoop!! You had me rolling on the floor!! I mean it. You've found three or four examples of what you consider failures and you mention them every chance you get!! (as an aside I strongly disagree with you on all counts!! I don't know how else to say it!!)

Anyway, thanks for the input YoHo and I agree wholeheartedly and was tempted to write pretty much the same thing (but with way more quote!!)

But, Scoop my friend, I think it may be time to agree to disagree instead, cause it's certainly apparent that I'm spinning my wheels trying to get you to buy into something that you never really experienced. All I ask is that you reread some of AV's posts. His take on the Movie Set feel hits the mark much closer than my old 'exotic, swept away' inept way of describing it.

 

[YoHo]

Ah but what did you think of my POTC and DL Fast food comments?

 

[space42]

Scoop, I just don't understand your comments on Ft. Wilderness. Maybe because I have stayed there more times than any other WDW resort I am biased.
However, I get a very special "Movie Set" "magical" feel when I enter Ft. Wilderness. When you walk near Pioneer Hall it feels like an extension of Frontierland. It is also very photogenic. I feel that this resort is an extension of the parks more so than just about any of the other WDW resorts. Also, concidering that this is one of the lower priced resorts on WDW property (~$30 per night to camp) I feel that is a prety amazing thing!

So, why could they not accomplish this with Pop Century? I'm sure when it opens that people will stay there (because of price mostly I bet.. or because the all stars are booked).

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Ah but what did you think of my POTC and DL Fast food comments?

I have to take your word for it. I have nothing to base it on. I've been to Disneyland only once. In 1968. I imagine that there have been quite a few changes in the interim!!

As for Pirates, I think it 'blends' quite nicely. It's kind of tucked into a corner and is almost set up as a separate land. The same way Frontierland 'blends' into Liberty Square, which 'blends into the Haunted Mansion.

But I will grant you that I just may be used to it. I've been looking at for thirty years!!!

 

[YoHo]

I think that the Golf resort was intentionally NOT a movie set. it was for those people that didn't want the movie set. It was a failure in the sense that it was NOT what people wanted.

I can understand that you and others may not like the Contemp Garden Wings, but that does not a cannot change what they were in 1971. In 1971 they were Unique and different and a Theme. They even matched tomorrowland. you can't argue against that. it is a fact.

 

[YoHo]

Just another thought
Contemporary's design is now passe'. You may not have liked it in 1971 many probably didn't, but there are tons of new designs, new ideas, new art that I think is stupid/Ugly/useless. that is none the less inovative and emersive. I think it goes back to tastes Vs. effort Disney put in.

Disney put a lot of effort into the Contemporary and it shows to those whose tastes run with its design. to those that simply don't like it, it actually doesn't matter how much effort Disney put in.

 

[YoHo]

The Garden wings are Externally miniature Versions of the tower. Interiors are about the same as any Lodge house at the polynesian except without the rataan furniture (I think they have some spartan simple lined stuff. )

As I've said. the Design has not whethered well.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

Until then please don't deride me as the uninformed one when I'm not the Car #3 driver spending a month at WDW....

OUCH!!!

Scoop! I didn't mean to deride you. I really meant it. I figured that since you didn't experience the 'feeling' when it had some coherent theme, you just didn't see it. And I can understand that. I don't know how many times we've discussed the 'garden wings' with almost all the old timers chiming in that it did in fact hit the mark. AT THE TIME!! Same with the Golf Resort as AV so clearly states:

The "classic" Disney approach was to take a familiar experience and apply filmmaking techniques to it. An amusement park ride became a movie in three dimensions. Hotel décor was given a "movie set" sense of purpose and story flow. Even the boring old Golf Resort was (very intentionally) given a very dramatic, sweeping drive-up between the fairways so that it felt like a very secluded private club (the kind you only see in movies).

Why can't you grasp that? I thought maybe it was because you didn't see it for yourself. So, no deriding intended. Honest!!

 

[JeffJewell]

Amazingly, some posters around here want to slam someone as uninformed or unenlightened because they try to be unbiased and consistent.

...not that this was necessarily directed at me, but in some cases it seems as though "some posters" (Mmm... euphemism-y...) react to the suggestion that there might still be some obstructive bias with an "I've been slimed" stance.

The roadblock I currently detect has to do with the Cosmic Ray/Contemporary/Fort Wilderness stuff.

First off, I'm not certain where the value is in going after those products of dead regimes. It doesn't seem like anyone's suggesting we petition Eisner to make updates, the examples seem more designed to defend some current decisions that are under attack, rather than address the current less-than-Magical state of the examples, themselves. I would suggest that's a bias.

Also, I still think a legitimate point was lost between Peter and myself that a "futuristic" theme has, by definition, a limited lifespan. It's not than we've grown older and those themes only capture children, it's that the theme itself actually expired along the way. I don't argue with those who say "Contemporary=unthemed," because that's pretty much what it looks like, now. I simply try to point out that "futuristic" circa 1970 does, in fact, correlate to "dated," to today's sensibilities. That point, I felt, got reduced to "you found less Magic in Contemporary over time, so you can't say you won't find more Magic in Dino-Rama over time," which pulls the conversation back to "what we like, must therefore be Magic." I'm still trying to base things on what went into the project, not upon whether it's my particular cup of tea.

I honestly believe that the effort was made (particularly when you consider the company's resources at that time compared to now), back in the day, to make the Tomorrowland Terrace, Contemporary, and Fort Wilderness vibrant, Magical parts of WDW. I'm willing to agree with anyone who says they can't see that effort, at the moment: it's no longer apparent. But I believe the original project met the standard.

The reason I keep poking my nose back in this thread is that I think it's a bad thing to expect less from today based on the fact that yesterday didn't always age gracefully.

Jeff

PS: Much as it pains me to say it , thedscoop is right: I've never defended the Garden Wings, only the original tower. I think the Garden Wings were a transparent grab for more money, and that the Contemporary grounds suffered aesthetically for their addition. And besides, the theme had already started getting gray, at that point (I'm pretty sure Card and Ron were wearing the hats with the propellors on them when the Garden Wings were built).

 

[raidermatt]

..it's a bad thing to expect less from today based on the fact that yesterday didn't always age gracefully.

I agree. Without trying to find examples that we can all agree on, we should be able to come to common understanding that no regime was perfect. Therefore, each made mistakes. There maybe a difference in the quantity, cause, reason, scope, handling, etc of those mistakes, but they are there. But a past mistake does not justify a current one.

The disagreement, in my opinion, is really more about what is a mistake.

I'll post a more detailed "Disney-park background" in the other thread, but briefly, my WDW experience consists of one 9 day trip in 9/2000. My baseline is really my DL trips through the 70's and 80's. So the viewpoints of the "old-timers" are valuable to me in understanding how things have changed at WDW, but I certainly have a concept of what "Magic" and "Show" are. If the fact that I disagree with an old-timer on those definitions makes the old-timer discount my opinion, so be it. (note- I don't really think this is happening, but it does sound that way on occasion.)

 

[Another Voice]

“Old timer” Okay kids, now you’re starting to hurt.


A cease fire proposal – let’s bulldoze over the Pop Century resort. Then let’s take the fifty foot Yo-Yo’s, ‘Do the funky chicken’ signs, and mauve paint and put them on the Garden Wings at the Contemporary and sell the place to Motel 6.

That should have something to please everyone.

 

[YoHo]

 

[raidermatt]

“Old timer” Okay kids, now you’re starting to hurt.

No offense intended. I was just showing respect for my elders. In keeping with the Disney® theme, perhaps we should instead say re-purposed guests?

A cease fire proposal – let’s bulldoze over the Pop Century resort. Then let’s take the fifty foot Yo-Yo’s, ‘Do the funky chicken’ signs, and mauve paint and put them on the Garden Wings at the Contemporary and sell the place to Motel 6.

Now THAT'S what I call a show!