EE's at the Parks

[marc]

Has anyone heard if they will be bringing back Early Entry?

 

[barreloflaughs]

thedscoop wrote:

He suggested to me that WDW needed at least 30-35% of onsite guests to utilize EE in order to make it work (based upon the increased concessions). Apparently less than 20% were actually going, especially as the resort breakfasts became more popular.

Depends on how you define 'utilize'! We would sometimes 'utilize' EE by going to one of the non-EE parks. We were using the benefit but not, I guess, in the way that Disney intended. I figure we actually used it the 'proper' way about 50% of the time.

No big problem if they follow through and adjust hours earlier for everyone. It'll just take a bit to get used to the crowd flow issues that result from the change.

Anybody have any tips (besides the use of FP...a wonderful thing) for avoiding the crowds/lines in this brave new non-EE world?

carl
barrel of laughs

 

[All Aboard]

If one were to put together a P&L on EE, you'd have to include the incremental resort revenue that is drvien by the existence of EE. That could be measured several ways. 1) the bookings gained by the existence of EE (in other words, we're staying onsite because of EE) 2) the impact EE had room rate (WDW charged $x more per night than they could have without it) - granted, that one my be minimal. 3) Resort breakfast sales - this is a stretch, but I suspect that EE-goers are generally more likely to eat in the morning than those sleeping in. (We'll just have an early lunch.)

All those revenue sources need to be added in when comparing to the incremental cost of running the park o' the day an extra 1.5 hours and running the buses and monorails an extra 1.5 hours.

No doubt some schmoe like me at Disney pulled together an analysis that indicated the billions of dollars they were losing by offering EE. Undoubtedly, it was cram packed with assumptions on all the above. In the end it was concluded that the net impact on revenue was less than the net impact on expenses. And hey, we can spin and deflect with this Character Caravan thing. (I'm close enough to corporate decision making in a consumer-driven industry to know just how that works.)

 

[raidermatt]

The big one is really #1. #2, as you said, is most likely either nil or minimal. I don't think #3 is really a stretch at all, but it is dependent on #1. If the former EE guests remain on-site, I'd guess that they remain early risers and therefore are still buying breakfast somewhere on-site. But of course, if they stay off-site, they would become more likely to buy their breakfast off-site. If a significant number were to go off-site, the loss could be substantial.

There's other questions as well, like what does no EE do to lunch sales? Do EE'ers typically leave at lunch time, only to make their own lunch? If so, does the later start make them more or less likely to buy lunch in the park? Does it make them more likely to just stay in the park all day, rather than taking leave to go to a non-revenue generationg pool?

Hopefully, there was at least a line on the spreadsheet for long-term customer satisfaction, even if some may disagree with the assumptions made about that line...

 

[barreloflaughs]

And hey, we can spin and deflect with this Character Caravan thing.

I'm wondering what formula in their spreadsheet gave them the idea that the Character Caravan would be a suitable replacement for EE. Did their polling actually indicate that folks would be ok with no-EE as long as some characters were available back at the resort?

carl

 

[All Aboard]

Carl, here's how that worked. They did a poll that (among many other things) indicated that x percent of guests were utilizing EE. And, the same (or other polls) indicated that guests wanted to see more characters. Someone creatively came up with the idea to paint this picture. "Few of you were using EE and you told us that you wanted more characters. Well we listened. EE has been replaced by Character Caravan, now everyone's happy."

That comes off pretty insulting to me. Am I really that stupid?!?!?

The impact of the loss of EE (if any) won't be realized for some time. Sure, there are plenty of folks on the DIS boards that are irrate, but the vast majority of the WDW going public doesn't take the time to frequent this type of place.

They'll make their summer reservations (as always) and get blindsided by a little flyer in their confirmation envelope that delivers the bad news. The ones that care might not change anything. Then, when they arrive in the summer, the impact will be felt by them. Then the decision happens. Do we want to pay WDW rates to stay on site next year? Or, even worse, "Do we even want to go next year, the crowds were awful and without EE there was nothing we could do about it."

If this describes even 5% to 7% of the travellers, it would be a big problem for WDW. Surely they ran all the scenarios. I'm sure they've got the same slick software package that I do.

Early trip reports indicate that crowds are very large right now. Without EE, there's not much that can be done to manage around that. Sure, the parks are open till midnight. But, that doesn't do much for the family with young kids that would much prefer to do the Fantasyland thing in the morning. If those guests come away disastisfied, WDW could lose in the long run.

 

[raidermatt]

On the other hand, the Character Caravan itself is simply responding to many, many, many customer requests for more character interaction...

Scoop, this is what I've been saying was surely the truth all along, and I'm glad to see I may not be crazy after all. CC is not directly related to EE, its just a smart move to highlight a plus when announcing a minus.

gcurling, I can't disagree with your logic. Disney won't know for sure what the impact of no EE is for quite some time. And I do sympathize with those who used EE. But looking at it logically, I'm not sure the impact wil be as large as you speculate. Fastpass is a relatively new feature for most guests, and it definitely helps manage those long lines.

Do you know when EE was instituted? I honestly don't know, but I'm guessing it wasn't in 1971, so I'm sure you know what I'm getting at. If it wasn't there before, and people came even with no Fastpass, Disney is probably banking on them continuing to come. On the other hand, a benefit taken away is usually felt more than a benefit never given.

Basically, I admit I don't know if there is going to be any kind of significant impact to bookings/attendance from the loss of EE. I understand why they did it, but I also agree with your statements that the potential is there for it to backfire, and the outcome won't be known for awhile.

(Related question - Did they really survey to find out how many guests used EE? Couldn't they just look at the turnstile counts during EE hours?)

 

[wdw4us2]

While I realize that EE will probably never return as we once knew it, I can't understand why Disney won't even reconsider reinstating it at the Magic Kingdom. I can see their reasoning when you spread EE over three parks and seven days (while I don't agree with it), but the MK is totally unmanageable on the weekends now without EE. A lot of us who live in Florida generally take our WDW trips on the weekends (so the kids won't miss school, adult vacation days, etc.) I'm beginning to think I'll never be able to enjoy the MK again unless I take a trip during the week. We have been three times since the elimination of EE, and the only time MK was doable was when it was pouring rain all day long. We (along with many of our friends) have already decided we will look offsite for hotel deals rather than staying onsite without EE. BTW, I make at least 25 trips to WDW per year (some day trips), and have never been polled regarding EE. I'd love to know who they polled!!!

Lisa

 

[PKS44]

Originally posted by thedscoop
[BOn the other hand, the Character Caravan itself is simply responding to many, many, many customer requests for more character interaction...especially that which didn't cost $21.95 per breakfast.

I view the Character Caravan as a great plus. A very nice non-revenue generating extra which is especially magic to the kids. But, I'm also informed enough not to buy the line that this was the logical evolvement of EE...

That's the scoop. [/B]

I wonder if the Caravan will decrease the demand for $21.95 breakfasts now that people can get their morning characters "for free." I doubt they ever fully evaluated all their options- like keeping it only for MK or returning to the idea that it is a "Surprise Morning" and doing it intermittently as a "surprise" for onsite guests when capacity was high instead of 7 days a week...theat would have required more complex decision making and not have immediately increased the bottom line as this move did. We shall see if it has a lasting effect on guests, bookings, satisfaction and eventually profits.

Paul

 

[Another Voice]

Hmmmm……

Gee, it’s really nice that Disney had been planning this Cavalcade all along and everything. Though I do have to wonder of three characters really constitute a “cavalcade”. It seems like words are being cut down to size just like the park hours.

Of course, the fact that Disney’s union contract with all these actors said they had to be paid for a certain number of hours per week – a number suddenly higher than what they could work at the now closed parks. I suppose Disney having to make a “use ‘em or loose ‘em but we gotta to pay ‘em” decision didn’t play any part in this decision at all.

And of course the whole issue must not have anything at all to do with the constant (and nasty) battle between resort management and parks management over where the guests should spend all their money. It’s not like Disney sees guests as nothing but wallets leaking money. And it’s not like that every manager fights to be the one holding the bucket, because it’s not like their bonus or their job rested on how much money their area soaks up.

And naturally there was never a thought to making the guests stay and eat breakfast in the resort (like anyone really drives off-property to eat a McMuffin). Those resort restaurants were going to be open anyway because that blasted AAA Guide requires it for those silly little stars they give out. And again, it never occurred to anyone that it’s much more cost effective to fill up the already open (and more profitable) resort restaurants rather than opening up a park to feed those same people. Besides, someone once thought that the guests have an ungrateful habit of going on the rides during the early hours rather than spending money. There could never be a “war of the spreadsheets” between Resorts and Parks to win the heart and mind [sic] of The Shopping Mall King.

Nah, the Character Cavalcade must be nothing but a pure, big hearted gift from our friends at Disney in response to the outpouring of guests’ demands for a minor character to stand by the side of a bus.

Or maybe the whole “Disney is a business” justification is for more than just passing over the latest round of budget cuts.

 

[barreloflaughs]

Mr.Scoop,

Thanks for the background on the EE/Character Caravan decisions.

You wrote:

Yet, over and over, one of the biggest guest complaints would be "Where are the characters?".

This amazes me. Maybe it's a case of right place, right time but we seem to have a hard time avoiding the characters. We rarely seek them out but always seem to stumble on them as we make our way through the parks. I wonder what we are doing differently?!

But, I'm also informed enough not to buy the line that this was the logical evolvement of EE...

I think Disney made a mistake by linking the end of EE with the start of CC. From where I sit it makes it look like a take away. Others may see it differently but we won't be standing around waiting for the CC to arrive at our resort. I guess we prefer to stumble upon them while wandering the parks. Much more magical for us!

Another Voice added:

And naturally there was never a thought to making the guests stay and eat breakfast in the resort (like anyone really drives off-property to eat a McMuffin). Those resort restaurants were going to be open anyway because that blasted AAA Guide requires it for those silly little stars they give out.

Well, we may be at the resorts but we will probably be eating cereal in our room and we also travel off-site for dinner more frequently these days also (Disney must really hate us!).

And hey how about off-site guests crashing the resorts for Character Caravan or Calvacade or whatever its called? If the characters are really that popular won't those cheapskate off-siters be swarming the resorts every morning to get their character fix?

carl
barrel of laughs

 

[hopemax]

The thing that I think is funny is when EE was first discontinued the rationalization on the boards was "In recent years EE hasn't been that much of a benefit because so many people were using it and the lines were getting just as long as normal operating hours." And now "not enough people were using it" so I'm confused.

I'm another one like barreloflaughs...no EE means breakfast in the room. $15.99 character buffets (I don't know where this $21.95 is coming from) felt like bargins, while the prices in the resort food courts for the quality of food served there, plus the time it took to get and check out always seemed like a waste. So that $5 for a stop at Goodings via the towncar looks wonderful for breakfast bars, fruit, hostess donuts and the like. We've tried several of the sit-down, non-buffet restaurants when we were used the Fall Fantasy package. And even those seemed like an over-priced IHOP, and we would never have paid to eat in them.

 

[larworth]

Interesting valuation problem. Estimating longterm goodwill is pretty subjective and probably impossible to verify two years from now. So many factors in play when comparing occupancy rates.

The parks seem to operate is isolation from their counterparts. I thought this comment about in-park dynamics was interesting

And of course the whole issue must not have anything at all to do with the constant (and nasty) battle between resort management and parks management over where the guests should spend all their money

I assume overall WDW management must greenlight these changes. It should be their job to make sure sub-units don’t do things that add cost but only serve to shift revenue from one pot to another with no net increase for the company.

Any CM’s have any comments on how well (or nasty) the two divisions work together?

 

[raidermatt]

AV- Just about everyone who has said that Disney may have at least been justified in discontinuing EE has said economics were the issue. Who knows what angle was the most influential? Does it matter?

As for the characters, if the only reason character interaction is being provided is to meet Union minimums, I guess we can assume that when the current contracts expire, we will no longer see characters on property, since the minimum will not longer exist. I suppose those minimums are the real reason why Disney sometimes sends characters out to a children's hospital?

barrel- I agree that characters can be found in the parks, and in some ways, that's preferable. But it's also is nice to sometimes be able to meet the characters in the air-conditioned resort, without having to stand in line for 30 minutes, or deal with the unruly masses at the impromptu characters greeting areas in the park.

Hope- Your always going to find varied opinions on why something happened. I'm pretty confident that most of those who are now saying EE was under-utilized said the same thing soon after the decision.


Its pretty clear that having characters available in the resorts is going to hurt resort character breakasts. Thinking that Disney didn't realize this would be just pure fantasy. So, it means one of two things:

1- They are ok with this because there really was a large number of requests from guests, and they felt this was a reasonable way to make them happy.

2- The resort character breakfasts are busy enough that even with the CC, they don't lose any real revenue. So, rather than raise the price, CC is provided.

Not that I expect any cynics to acknowledge this...

 

[PKS44]

I think Disney has shown a very unwise trend in their recent decisions- a trend that demonstrated poor foresight, and lack of imagination and creativity. It is seen again and again. Whether it is making sequels or putting Millionaire on 4 x a week or thinking that resort hotel capacity should only be increased with more and more hotels, or more merchandising, or more characters. The idea is the same- here is something that is cheaper to do and is popular so let's saturate with it rather than come up with new ideas. Millionaire is a perfect example/metaphor...Instead of filling the schedule with new material, just churn out more Millionaire...oops! once it was on so much, it lost it's appeal and now you have less than you had before...this story can play out in the same way for the other things I mentioned....This is a very unimaginative way to run a company that was built to a business dynasty on Imagination. Call me cynical if you like, but I don't like what I am seeing....

Paul

 

[YoHo]

The most important question to be answered is
Is EE a major reason people stay onsite?
I suspect it isn't.
The People on the DIS if my observations have been accurate tend to be bargin hunters. They also tend to do the Vacation Warrior uber-planning thing. I suspect that doesn't accuratly reflect the average guest.

Disney made a number of mistakes before this "Chrisis" happened say around the mythical 1998 timeframe. The mistake was changing the Dynamic of staying onsite. EE may have been the mistake in the first place.

 

[kenjean]

We are also Floridians, though just recently. Regardless, before we moved we frequented WDW. Two personal observations:
1) We have not stayed on-site since EE was eliminated. That was the best perk, in my opinion, to paying the Disney hotel prices. I don't see paying $100 per night for the All Stars when we can stay at the Hyatt for $35 on priceline.
2) Someone posted the idea of having EE for the Magic Kingdom only. I think this is a great idea. That is the one park that needs it. EE at MGM was OK, but at EPCOT was a waste of time.

 

[DisOrBust]

My 2 cents....
This year our annual trip was in Jan compared to Easter last year. Yes the crowds were "lite" however the shortened hours made it very difficult to see what we wanted at a reasonable pace. I have 2 DD's 4 and 7yo and with the loss of EE and the Pseudo securtiy check, MK was not very enjoyable as it had been in the past. The CC was a joke. There were more kids waiting there for characters then at the parks and it wasted precious park time.

Last year we went to USF for the first time. The crowds at the parks were a mote point because we had FOTL acess since we were staying at PFB. The stay at PFB was nice and cost 200/night less then GF.

So what will we do next year? Yes we wil go to WDW but for not as long at stay. Will we stay onsite? Doubtful, I have a hard time justifiying the cost with SO many other options available in Orlando. Will we go to USF? You bet and we will DEFINITELY stay onsite as long as they have FOTL.

I don't crunch numbers for a living. But somehow I don't think this is what Disney wanted as a result from their bottom line mentallity. USf is going after WDW carotids, I think they have a good start!!!

 

[PKS44]

I don't know if the attitude expressed by DisOrBust is widely held, but it has to be a concern. If Disney were clever they could figure a way to eliminate the high cost of EE and still keep people wanting to stay on-site...besides the idea of EE only at MK and only one or two days a week .. and not lose money in the process...What about giving Resort guests one extra Fast Pass per person day or for every 3 days . (or whatever number won't kill the system) You could pick them up when you check in, use them as you choose, anytime- all in one day or spread them out...something like this or similar could easily be a prized premium at no cost to WDW... or give resort guests priority choices for the priority seating to the most popular character meals (like the difficult to get Cinderella Breakfasts)..This would make people REALLY have an incentive to stay on -site, and they would be paying the premium to do it and with the high demand for character meals they would not be losing any business...Those are just two simple ideas, I don't do this for a living like people who should be able to come up with better ideas than Character Caravans...Resort bookings are down, we know this is currently blamed on the economy...that excuse will only last so long...and then those business and marketing managers will have to actually do something or heads should roll.

 

[damo]

We have stopped going to WDW and instead go to Universal because of the value at Universal. We stay at the Hard Rock Hotel for $150/night in a room that is more beautiful and larger than the GF room we stayed in for $499/night. We get a season pass for $99 and we get express access for every ride. For us, this is the perfect vacation because we don't have to wait in line and thus can do the parks in a lot less time and this allows us to do other things in Orlando (like shop, golf, etc.)