Has Disney’s DAS Pass Become A DASaster?

[Betty Rohrer]

That's not what the ADA is about at all - it's not free services for the disabled that the nondisabled have to pay for.


You corrected your dangling modifier.


So if you are a family of 5, how does that work? 2 adults, 3 kids, one with DAS, oops, sorry family, you'll never get to ride anything together. And wow, you spent a lot of time watching people in lines at guest services - how did you know they were all in the queue for DAS?

How would you know all of that, seriously? And you can't get past the CM with DAS access unless the DAS user checks in first and gets the OK. Then the others tap in. Sometimes there's a second tap in. And maybe they all had some other type of pass, like a Make a Wish, etc.

even with the Wish pass Wish child must ride to use the pass

 

[DisneyOma]

even with the Wish pass Wish child must ride to use the pass

Yes, but PP was assuming the wheelchair person was the DAS holder and something nefarious was going down 'cause Gramma wasn't riding! It could have been someone else's DAS in the group (and wheelchair user doesn't need DAS if that's the only issue) or some other pass like MAW. You just can't tell by looking at the group, can you?

 

[Betty Rohrer]

Yes, but PP was assuming the wheelchair person was the DAS holder and something nefarious was going down 'cause Gramma wasn't riding! It could have been someone else's DAS in the group (and wheelchair user doesn't need DAS if that's the only issue) or some other pass like MAW. You just can't tell by looking at the group, can you?

correct. I can just hear someone when our big group had other passes but I was in the wheelchair even though I rode we had a group of 14, 11 with passes and 3 under 3's. I did not have a DAS because chair was all I needed but I am sure someone that we were cheating the system

 

[Dashzap]

Assumptions, indeed. I was taken aback by a couple of the writer's assumptions.

First, anyone possessing a handicap placard or plates is highly unlikely to be this self-sacrificing. They have gone through an often laborious process of obtaining placard/plates because they need to use handicap parking. They would be taking that disabled space, not leaving it for another.

We do frequently. One person in my household has a spinal cord injury. On bad pain days we use the disability parking. On better days he prefers to leave those spots for those who need them.

 

[lanejudy]

I’ve read the text of the ADA and the only section that I see that pertains to “proof” is the employment section. I’m not a lawyer so I will admit I might not be interpreting it correctly. Specifically, SubchapterIII - Public Accommodations and Services operated by Private entities doesn’t seem to have a section that specifically covers proof or disclosure of medical information. Anyway, the pp talked about US privacy laws and that sounded more broad, like some special law that I’ll admit I’ve never heard of. I really am genuinely curious, because I’ve heard this argument before but have never seen the actual text that describes it.

I'm also not a lawyer so take this as you may: my understanding is the "no proof required" comes out of the wording related to the definition of disability having 3 "prongs" (having an impairment, a "record" of such an impairment, or "regarded as" having such impairment); coupled with wording requiring application of ADA rules as broadly as possible, without "extensive analysis" of whether an individual formally meets the definition of "disability." It's more an interpretation rather than direct wording. I also wouldn't be surprised if a lawyer who specializes in ADA/disability law could quote precedent cases that also lead to such a position without the actual wording within the various parts of the ADA legislation.

 

[lanejudy]

we'd see Grandma in a wheelchair who needed DAS, make her way up to the entrance of SDD, then see the half-dozen or more of her "family members" enter the DAS queue while Grandma waited at the exit.

we also saw plenty of groups where the person who the DAS was for, never entered the queue.

These comments really point out how ill-informed many of the non-disabled general public are with regards to DAS. Unfortunately that misunderstanding leads to a lot of inaccurate assumptions and wrong expectations.

• DAS is not issued for those whose disability is accommodated by using a wheelchair or mobility device.
• DAS allows for up to 5 guests to accompany the DAS-holder; that limit can be expanded in certain circumstances but rarely will a larger group be allowed 1 DAS Return Time to a given attraction.
• There are no "DAS queues." DAS users use the same queue as FP/FP+ and now Genie+ and ILL$ as well as VIP tours, multi-experience passes, rider swap,, Club 33 and MAW.
• The DAS-holder must scan first to enter the queue or the rest of the party cannot enter the queue.
• The DAS-holder must ride.
• DAS is intended for "invisible disabilities" so it's always amazing how many non-disabled folks can "see" these things so plainly as to recognize who in the party has the DAS!

One other thing; DAS used to be a HUGE problem at DL/DCA. There would be a long line of people rope-dropping guest services and parading around the park with their ill-gotten DAS cards all day, every day. You don't see that anymore. How did DL fix it? No idea but I'm glad they did.

Generally-speaking, DL/DCA has the same DAS program as WDW. There are some minor differences, and in particular DLR has many more non-accessible queues, but basically the same program and rules. It's all digital now, no physical cards.

 

[Anna131517]

I read articles like this all the time. People want to throw up roadblocks for accommodations that are required by law. These writers don’t seem to understand - probably because they have never had to do it themselves - how difficult and expensive it can be to get a specialist to write a note for you and that a diagnosis alone does not indicate your actual experienced impairment. I have MS. It takes weeks and a hefty fee to get any documentation from a neurologist. My diagnosis alone doesn’t tell you my symptoms. Only I know my symptoms, because I experience them. Some people with MS have no symptoms, some use a wheelchair, some are heat or cold sensitive and that sensitivity triggers a variety of other symptoms. It’s literally different for every person. Just like autism and anxiety. Disabled people are the best people to tell you their own limitations, not a doctor.

 

[Anna131517]

I don't understand where your defensiveness is coming from. Of course I do not think a person who truly qualifies for a DAS is abusing the system by using it.

However, people lying about conditions to get the DAS pass to avoid having to pay for Genie+ or ILL is absolutely abuse, and it is happening. Just ask the cast members how much DAS use has increased since paid fastness was rolled out. Simple human nature would also indicate that it is happening. Trying to pretend like this isn't happening does no one any good.

Fast pass used to be free. So if someone thought their disability could be accommodated by using fast pass then they wouldn’t have applied for DAS. I never applied for DAS before this year myself. We would book three fast passes then ride less popular rides or go to shows, which rarely have lines. So the elimination of fast pass alone may have caused any increase in DAS usage. Just like my doctor gave me the paperwork to get a handicap parking placard but since I literally go nowhere that requires me to walk far to get inside I haven’t submitted it to the DMV (we stay on property at WDW and live in a small town).

 

[maxiesmom]

How big is your "crew"? We saw plenty of people who were just small groups (2-4 people NBD) - it was the large groups where it was very clear that not everyone was a family member that caught our attention. And, sorry to say, we also saw plenty of groups where the person who the DAS was for, never entered the queue. I mean, why would they if they don't want to ride? Their group doesn't have to wait in line - they're going to be right back. Oh, but wait a minute...the DAS isn't for them...is it?

There seems to be a common sentiment that this is all-or-nothing; that couldn't be further from the truth. The people who are cheating the system aren't as invisible as they seem to think they are. You may not be able to stop all the cheating, but you can make some big improvements, and the only people who would lose out would be the cheaters.

You seem to be making a ton of assumptions in your post. Glad you can somehow see which person had the DAS just by looking.

Also, don't kid yourself. Any "improvements" such as limiting the number of guests that can join the DAS holder would only make things harder on everyone, not just the supposed cheaters.

 

[Disneychick13]

Ok so I’m just wondering for everyone that says the Disney can’t do anything more….what about the program that six flags has? It looks like they require verification of need from a physician or other provider to determine eligibility. Looks like a good program. Clearly it’s not in violation of the ADA so I’m not understanding why Disney can’t ask for proof but six flags can? Interesting and I’m hoping someone on this forum can explain it to me.

 

[jlundeen]

This whole thread has so many repeated "assumptions" which have been shown repeatedly to be false. Those who know the real facts continually attempt to correct the assumptions, but yet the assumptions continue to be reported as truth.

We will never change the minds of anyone who feels they are being cheated by someone getting something that they are not... real facts are not as fun as the false assumptions.

As someone who could not "do" Disney without DAS as well as needing an ECV while there, even though I do not use one at home, I respectfully suggest that those who feel cheated should maybe look a little deeper into the information easily available on Disney's website about what the requirements of obtaining and using a DAS pass entail, and then perhaps try to "walk a mile in the shoes" of the people who use them, but are continually being accused of "cheating the system"

 

[DisneyOma]

Ok so I’m just wondering for everyone that says the Disney can’t do anything more….what about the program that six flags has? It looks like they require verification of need from a physician or other provider to determine eligibility. Looks like a good program. Clearly it’s not in violation of the ADA so I’m not understanding why Disney can’t ask for proof but six flags can? Interesting and I’m hoping someone on this forum can explain it to me.

Six Flags is giving the equivalent of one of their paid access passes for free to disabled guests who qualify. They sell tiered access tickets and extra access passes. This is unlike Disney, where Genie+ does not operate the same way as DAS.

 

[RoseGold]

Here's a link to the publicly accessible actual court case, which explains in detail DAS as well as the ADA, you know the kind of thing a "journalist" should maybe skim before she makes up a magical imaginary law land and declares DAS a failure.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/d...-discrimination-lawsuit.3805252/post-62042903

Disney actually argues the opposite, that the old system was the one being abused, which I think was definitely the consensus at the time.

 

[Disneychick13]

Here's a link to the publicly accessible actual court case, which explains in detail DAS as well as the ADA, you know the kind of thing a "journalist" should maybe skim before she makes up a magical imaginary law land and declares DAS a failure.

https://www.disboards.com/threads/d...-discrimination-lawsuit.3805252/post-62042903

Disney actually argues the opposite, that the old system was the one being abused, which I think was definitely the consensus at the time.

It’s a fascinating read. However, keep in mind that this lawsuit predates a paid system such as genie+.

quote from the case “Thus, it became more difficult for Disney employees to discern what was appropriate because the guests were able to “essentially work the system to say what they needed to say.” “ That is still the case, whether a GAC or DAS is issued.

another quote: “The wait times would also increase more significantly if the percentage of guests with a DAS increased, a scenario Disney anticipated as more guests learned about the increased benefits, based on similar problems and abuses that developed with the GAC program. Thus, for example, if all DAS guests were given two readmission passes for their party, a 1 % increase in daily DAS users would cause the standby wait time at Seven Dwarfs Mine train to increase by nearly an hour, from 69 minutes to 124 minutes. Similarly, there were significant increases in wait time for the other popular rides.”

The basis of this lawsuit is a comparison of GAC with DAS. But my argument is that just like the system was abused (and Disney proves that it was) so it could be abused again (to what Disney thought was unsustainable with the prior GAC system).

Another quote: “Once Disney’s leadership found out about the results of the GAC Study, they unanimously agreed that Disney “could not continue” with GAC because “it was not sustainable” and was impacting Disney’s business. The Court finds that the documented fraud and abuse of the GAC program led Disney to develop the Disability Access Service (“DAS”) which replaced GAC on October 9, 2013.”

My point is that the DAS system didn’t eliminate fraud and abuse at all. What it did was deincentivize people to try to cheat the system because the system just wasn’t as good anymore. The concern now is that people are once more incentivized to abuse the system again because of the cost of genie+/LL access. Disney proved that people were cheating the system before. Why would anyone think they aren’t doing that again to save money?

 

[Disneychick13]

Six Flags is giving the equivalent of one of their paid access passes for free to disabled guests who qualify. They sell tiered access tickets and extra access passes. This is unlike Disney, where Genie+ does not operate the same way as DAS.

While it does not operate that same way as genie+, Genie+ is a paid system. There are only 3 ways to have LL access. One is with child swap which is separate thing because when you utilize child swap someone did have to wait in the standby line. DAS holders use the line but didn’t pay for access. All other people using the LL paid to use it. It is not a free system anymore. In other words, while the process for obtaining LL access is different for the 2 parties, DAS parties use it for free (as they should!)

 

[juuuliebeth]

My diagnosis alone doesn’t tell you my symptoms. Only I know my symptoms, because I experience them. Some people with MS have no symptoms, some use a wheelchair, some are heat or cold sensitive and that sensitivity triggers a variety of other symptoms. It’s literally different for every person.

Fast pass used to be free. So if someone thought their disability could be accommodated by using fast pass then they wouldn’t have applied for DAS. I never applied for DAS before this year myself. We would book three fast passes then ride less popular rides or go to shows, which rarely have lines. So the elimination of fast pass alone may have caused any increase in DAS usage.

I relate so much to these things you've written. I also have MS. For several years, I didn't have trouble at all in going to Disney. After one relapse, things got more difficult. I was still able to manage because FP+ helped me for the most part. I had my strategies down, and I rarely had difficulty. I suffer from the mindset of "am I disabled enough?" It makes things like this really hard to navigate. I've only just used DAS for the first time because I went in September. I usually go in January-April, but I knew the heat was going to make things harder than normal. DAS was invaluable in allowing me to stay out of the sun/heat.

I'd like to add for others' benefit, that requiring a doctor's note or proof of any kind for a diagnosis only serves to make things more difficult for disabled people. The emotional, mental, and physical labor that goes into the hoop jumping to prove that we're "disabled enough" to ask for accommodations is maddening. In order to be approved for an accommodation at work, I had to provide a letter from my doctor as well and have her fill out several forms detailing why my diagnosis makes life difficult and why this accommodation is needed. It was infuriating, and brought so much stress into my life that I started questioning if asking for help is even worth it.

When applying for DAS, I gave a short and simple explanation about how I would benefit from the service, and the CM quickly approved me without question. I had been dreading it for weeks, wondering how much of a challenge I'd receive. I breathed so much easier once it was done. I felt like I'd been heard for the first time in a long time. And to expect disabled people to be put through the ringer even more than we are already, just to filter out people who abuse the system, is an extremely harmful and ignorant expectation of someone who has no idea what it's like to exist is a disabled body. Check your privileges and leave people alone. Unless you need the DAS service yourself, it doesn't matter how it works. And it's none of your business who needs it and why.

 

[DLgal]

Check your privileges and leave people alone. Unless you need the DAS service yourself, it doesn't matter how it works. And it's none of your business who needs it and why.

This, right here, all day everyday.
.

 

[DLgal]

Ok so I’m just wondering for everyone that says the Disney can’t do anything more….what about the program that six flags has? It looks like they require verification of need from a physician or other provider to determine eligibility. Looks like a good program. Clearly it’s not in violation of the ADA so I’m not understanding why Disney can’t ask for proof but six flags can? Interesting and I’m hoping someone on this forum can explain it to me.

Six flags is providing better access, not equal access. Because they are giving disabled guests something for free that they normally charge for, they can ask for whatever they want as proof. I believe Universal is the same way. The disability pass there is essentially Express Pass.

Because Genie+ grants access through the LL based on a scheduled time window, and does not require guests to first wait the equivalent of the standby line, IF Disney was giving DAS holders that same access, they could ask for proof. They are not giving DAS guests free Genie+. The DAS is limited to holding ONE return time at a time, you cannot "stack" them, and you can't book a new one every 2 hours. It's not as good as G+, so they don't ask for any proof because they are not giving disabled guests better access, only equal access.

 

[jlundeen]

Out of curiosity, I'm wondering how the number of DAS returns per day compares to the number of G+ every day. I know when I am there, not counting the advanced ones, which often go un-used, I may get as few as 2-3 return times in a day, and maybe, for the extended hours day, 4-5.... and some of those end up not being used towards the end of the day. just because can't stay long enough to use them. Since it takes so much more effort to get from point A to point B, if I have to crisscross the park, I just run out of steam.

 

[Jellybean9]

I don't think anyone on this thread has called for the elimination of the DAS program like several of you are claiming. I think most people "criticizing" are just pointing out the flaws.

I frequently read the comment that DAS users are waiting the same amount, if not more, as regular standby guests. That is just really, really not true. Without even taking into account the two attractions reserved in advance (which I frequently read that stay active past their hour window), DAS users have the ability to book their spot in line as soon as they enter the park. Standby users don't start their first wait of the day as soon as they walk in the park. Once the DAS user has tapped into the attraction, they can start "waiting" in line for their next attraction. Again, a standby visitor isn't waiting in line while they're riding the previous attraction. DAS users can have a snack, watch a parade, ride another attraction, visit a character all while "waiting in line"....these are all things that non-DAS users would like to do as well. To say there is not an advantage is kind of befuddling. Yes, we all know there needs to be a DAS program in place. It just makes sense that there should be a real verification process in place. DAS is providing a superior experience than what is offered to a traditional non-Genie+, Individual Lightening Lane paying guest (to be honest, it's better than Genie+ because you can go on the same attraction multiple times and DAS return times don't run out).

Look at the daily videos coming out of people having physical brawls in the parks. Clearly, there are plenty of folks in the parks that aren't well behaved. I think its safe to assume there are cheaters using the DAS.