Hey Pete, Tell Us How You Really Feel

[fakereadhed]

If this is not true than I assume that all Bahamanian women are chasing strangers down the street begging them to let her braid their hair and I don't believe thats true either.

Kevin

You crack me up!

ITA about the digging deeper. We did the same thing on Grand Cayman years ago. Would have missed out on a really great bowl of turtle soup if we hadn't.

 

[Linus Van Pelt]

I guess my point is that I dont believe that the "tourist area" anywhere is truly the culture of the place you are visiting. It's a watered down, hyped up, "for sale", pseudo version and I think if you want the real thing...you need to dig a bit deeper.

Well said!

It's just that Pete came off as a touch blinkered in his rant, especially his mention of the women with the babies on the side of the road. I'm fairly certain his attitude would be different if he was a native Bahamian.

Now, having said all that, let me be clear: I, too, am not fond of aggressive sales tactics, and would be more than a little stressed by being hounded almost as soon as I set foot off the boat. But, as far as witnessing the extreme poverty, the shantytowns, etc., I don't think my first thought would be "move it where I can't see it, else I'll take my tourist dollars elsewhere." I'd look upon it as witnessing another culture, and realize that, if I wanted homogenization, well, that's what Disney's (and Universal, Six Flags, etc.) for.

 

[SamIAm21]

Thanks Kevin for posting. You said things that I was trying to convey, only in a far more intelligent manner. And your example of Las Vegas hit home because I have seen numerous changes in everything from carpet color to actually building facades changed and remodeled in Las Vegas to suit the Asian consumer.

I think if the Bahamian Tourist Minister wants Disney to stop in Freeport again, he needs to rethink how his country is briefly represented to tourists getting off the ships for a very short period of time, but yet, leaving behind a lot of hard earned American dollars, which unfortunately don't buy as much as they used to in some countries, but are still valuable to that island's economy.

 

[Disneybridein2k3]

I guess I am so many people because when I travel I try to prepare myself ahead of time for the culture. I have seen travel groups from Asia in American stores and didn't see any of the salespeople changing their sales strategies. This is why Americans have a bad reputation. If you don't like shopping that way, stay on the ship and enjoy your day there. American tourists think the world revolves around them and it doesn't.

I need to say first that I haven't had the opportunity to listen to this week's episode yet - I tried to put a password on my laptop and somehow have locked myself out of my own home computer which coincidently holds my iTunes account (I'm at work now and am not allowed to listen here) so until I can hack into my computer.....
ANYWAY, I can't speak for the Bahamas, BUT it is not "culture" to me when I got off the ship at Cozumel only to have locals come at me every 3rd step I took to get me to buy their merchandise, have them braid my hair, ride in their taxi, eat at their restaurant, etc. Maybe people in Mexico do not have personal space, but I do and it is very important to me. It really left a bad taste in my mouth and made me LESS likely to do/buy everything they were trying to sell me. It did encourage me to stay on the ship like you suggest but I doubt that is the result the locals are looking for. okay, I'm done - Let the mud-slinging begin....
(hey Craig - I found your soap box over here...)

 

[raidermatt]

To clarify, I totally understand people not wanting to see it on vacation. I just didn't understand being upset with the people there that are just trying to scrape by and living in substandard conditions.

The overall point of Pete's rant was not to berate any individual, but to point out that if the Bahamas want American tourist dollars (at the very least his dollars), they need to tone down all of the things he complained about.

If you don't like shopping that way, stay on the ship and enjoy your day there. American tourists think the world revolves around them and it doesn't.

Or don't take that cruise at all, which is what Pete said he would do.

I agree that the "ugly American" stereotype is certainly rooted in some truth. But at the same time, the business owner always has to find out what works best with his/her potential customers, and that's the point being made here. They don't have to adapt to what the American tourist is looking for if they don't want to. It just needs to be understood that they will lose business if they don't.

Not every American will avoid them of course, but some will. Just like any other business situation.

 

[raidermatt]

IANYWAY, I can't speak for the Bahamas, BUT it is not "culture" to me when I got off the ship at Cozumel only to have locals come at me every 3rd step I took to get me to buy their merchandise, have them braid my hair, ride in their taxi, eat at their restaurant, etc. Maybe people in Mexico do not have personal space, but I do and it is very important to me. It really left a bad taste in my mouth and made me LESS likely to do/buy everything they were trying to sell me. It did encourage me to stay on the ship like you suggest but I doubt that is the result the locals are looking for. okay, I'm done - Let the mud-slinging begin....
(hey Craig - I found your soap box over here...)

Very good point. We went to China last year and were with a group and often when we would get off of our bus there would be people trying to get in our faces, touching us, etc, trying to get us to buy things. When we got back on the bus, they would even reach in through the windows and sometimes try to get on the bus themselves.

This was of course not everybody. Just a very, very small percentage. Most of the people were just going about there business.

It's not really culture. They aren't accosting other natives. They are simply trying to hit up the tourists. Sure, there's a bit of culture in the way they are doing it, but it's primarily an artificial situation created by the tourists being there.

 

[TheWho]

Well said Pete !!! I not olny laughed but totally agree with this rant. My family took their first Disney cruise this year and needless to say, on our next cruise, we'll stay on the ship.

 

[robsvacation]

I personally found the rant went beyond my comfort level (which actually says a lot) Sure, Pete started his diatribe with a "I say this tongue in cheek" disclaimer, but I was shocked by how incredibly condescending his tone was, how utterly belittling.

Despite making many valid points, I still think some of the comments were out of line. Ok, the Bahamians are aggressive drivers, but the choice of words "stop acting like animals when you're driving" was poor. The whole "stop putting your infants in cardboard boxes on the side of the road" followed up with someone else's joke "Are you sure they're not trying to sell the baby?" , was so insensitive to the reality of the situation. I can already hear the rebuttal, that the parents were going for sympathy, but knowing the poverty levels in the Bahamas I honestly doubt it.

If you don't like a place by all means say it! out loud! using any media you want! But for heaven's sake do it in a way that puts weight behind your arguements, not in a way that frankly makes you look bad.

"Stop selling crap!" "Stop trying to cram 27 people into a van that's suppose to seat 8!" "we don't want to be confronted by abject poverty!" Throw all the above together sprinkle it with all the disparaging adjectives and a huge degree of attitude, and what you have is the ugly American tourist personified.

Call me PC or overly sensitive, but in the end I was a little ashamed to have giggled at some of the comments. I even left a voice mail, my own overly verbose and too-long rant. But after I listened to that part of the podcast a couple of times (mostly because I didn't want to misquote any of the above) I don't think I'm the one out of line. I feel the rant was disrespectful, and I actually think less of the Diz team and the show in general as a result.

 

[Soccermom-Cheri]

disclaimer: I haven't heard the podcast yet (been a little busy with the fires)

My little take on poverty in other ports: I get my kids off the ship and have them look around (as long as it's safe). I'd show them the baby in the box. My kids need to see other ways of life. Not all of our vacation is meant as a "life lesson", but 2 hours figuring out that probably not everyone has big screen tv's and computers is good for them - in my never to be humble opinion. But that's just me. And I'm a mean mom, just ask my kids.

Next person for the soapbox!

 

[makelab]

about the Bahamas! I have to say I agree with each and every point. This could apply to several islands in the Caribbean and RCL's private island, Labadee. Don't go into the "island merchants hut"

on another topic, can you give me your experiences on RCL's island. DW has already planned a cruise next year, which i am dreading, with stops in jamaica, cozumel, and labadee (haiti). the only port i am remotely interested in is grand cayman. been to cozumel, nothing special for me, and i usually don't believe the hype about the crime factor in some cities, but i have reservations about jamaica.
please give me a reason to stay onboard.

 

[dmslush]

Years ago, on another forum, a guy was going on and on about how do you people go to Disney over and over, it's not real, rocks are fake, everything's fake, you're a bunch of losers, go some place real...

Next post was, I'm an emergency room doctor in an inner city hospital. I get enough real at work, I don't want it on vacation.

Amen! I work for child protective services, I see enough poverty, abuse, heartache, ridicule, etc.. I don't want to see it when on vacation. It is not that I don't care, it is that I see this stuff every single day.

 

[dwelty]

I totally agree with Pete. I have never been to the Caribbean, however I have been to the Mexican Rivera, where kids sell on the streets. Many Americans buy from these kids. We talked to a local who said if Americans did not buy from them, they would be in school, and asked us not to. It totally changed my perspective on this. Other than Hati (where there is no tourisim) the "poverty" in the Carribean and Mexico is not the same as poverty in other places such as central Africa.

Other posters have said Walt Disney World is the only place to go if you want to avoid poverty. I dissagree, Any place in the United States would qualify. There is no Real poverty anywhere in the US, as compared to third world countires. (Most of our homeless have mental disabilities, or substance abuse issues to contend with, a whole other story)

 

[SamIAm21]

on another topic, can you give me your experiences on RCL's island. DW has already planned a cruise next year, which i am dreading, with stops in jamaica, cozumel, and labadee (haiti). the only port i am remotely interested in is grand cayman. been to cozumel, nothing special for me, and i usually don't believe the hype about the crime factor in some cities, but i have reservations about jamaica.
please give me a reason to stay onboard.

Sorry, we're off topic here, but...

Labadee, other than the merchants hut, was quite beautiful and although I've never been to Castaway Cay (going next week actually), the service was wonderful, the beaches were gorgeous and there's quite a few nice walking paths, and really good food for lunch. There are a few locals there that will offer to carry your chairs to a shady spot if you want and you should tip them if you can. If not, just say no thank you. As far as Jamaica goes, if you are apprehensive about venturing into town, there is a nice outdoor mall that is sort of "inside the port gates" where locals are discouraged. There are several quaint shops with a Buffett's Margaritaville, which is a fun spot to hang out in. You can pay a fee or buy some meals and you will be able to use the pool there too! As long as I can get my Jamaican coffee, I'm happy and there's a shop in the mall that sells the coffee.

You can PM me if you want more details.

 

[jjpenguin]

I personally found the rant went beyond my comfort level (which actually says a lot) Sure, Pete started his diatribe with a "I say this tongue in cheek" disclaimer, but I was shocked by how incredibly condescending his tone was, how utterly belittling.

Despite making many valid points, I still think some of the comments were out of line. Ok, the Bahamians are aggressive drivers, but the choice of words "stop acting like animals when you're driving" was poor. The whole "stop putting your infants in cardboard boxes on the side of the road" followed up with someone else's joke "Are you sure they're not trying to sell the baby?" , was so insensitive to the reality of the situation. I can already hear the rebuttal, that the parents were going for sympathy, but knowing the poverty levels in the Bahamas I honestly doubt it.

If you don't like a place by all means say it! out loud! using any media you want! But for heaven's sake do it in a way that puts weight behind your arguements, not in a way that frankly makes you look bad.

"Stop selling crap!" "Stop trying to cram 27 people into a van that's suppose to seat 8!" "we don't want to be confronted by abject poverty!" Throw all the above together sprinkle it with all the disparaging adjectives and a huge degree of attitude, and what you have is the ugly American tourist personified.

Call me PC or overly sensitive, but in the end I was a little ashamed to have giggled at some of the comments. I even left a voice mail, my own overly verbose and too-long rant. But after I listened to that part of the podcast a couple of times (mostly because I didn't want to misquote any of the above) I don't think I'm the one out of line. I feel the rant was disrespectful, and I actually think less of the Diz team and the show in general as a result.

Well said robsvacation

I only got round to listening to this podcast yesterday but I was shocked at what I heard. On the one hand there were complaints about intolerance and on the other Pete were telling people how they should live their lives because "he did not want to see poverty when he was on vacation!" Last time I checked poverty was not a lifestyle choice.

If you do not wish to be confronted with it, then choose your destinations accordingly. If need be complain to the cruise company that you would prefer other ports, but don't expect a whole country to comply to your view. I love going to WDW on holiday, but there are also things I don't like about the USA, but they are all part of the total package. If the things I don't like outweigh my love for WDW I'll stop going. I have that choice.

There may have been valid points in Pete's rant, but for me they were totally overshadowed by his disrespectful tone and attitude that conveyed that everything revolved around him having a good time on vacation and that it was up to the Bahamians to comply to his world view to achieve this.

On a side note: in a lot of countries tourists are seen as walking wallets and accosted agressively but what about Disney ticket scams, timeshare scams etc. in Orlando. Not as in your face but still trying to earn a living out of the unsuspecting tourists.

 

[robsvacation]

Dear Dis Team

Thank you for letting me have my say. I cringed as I heard my own voice coming back at me, thinking the whole time "please don't hurt me too much Pete!" Just kidding, although I probably shouldn't be joking around on this thread!

I'll just say one last thing and then drop the issue. No, I do not go to soup kitchens when I'm in Orlando (ouch, felt that one Pete) Everyone has those particular issues that they are passionate about, things that when someone cracks a joke it just hits a nerve. So for me it's poverty, and I would fight tooth and nail on the issue, but this is just not the place.

So I really respect that fact that you were willing to play my voicemail and I agree to disagree.

Now, let's back to the issue at hand, which is to have a little fun!

 

[joanjett1976]

If you do not wish to be confronted with it, then choose your destinations accordingly. If need be complain to the cruise company that you would prefer other ports, but don't expect a whole country to comply to your view. I love going to WDW on holiday, but there are also things I don't like about the USA, but they are all part of the total package. If the things I don't like outweigh my love for WDW I'll stop going. I have that choice.

On a side note: in a lot of countries tourists are seen as walking wallets and accosted agressively but what about Disney ticket scams, timeshare scams etc. in Orlando. Not as in your face but still trying to earn a living out of the unsuspecting tourists.

Wow, JJPenguin. Very well put, I completely agree...

 

[raidermatt]

If you do not wish to be confronted with it, then choose your destinations accordingly.

Isn't that what they said they would do?

They simply said that if you want more American tourist dollars, which the government obviously does, they are going to have to deal with these issues.

Not right or wrong, just business.

 

[MaryKatesMom]

Sometimes the truth hurts. I'm with Pete here and when I'm on vacation I'm all out to escape. It is a VACATION not the peace corp! Sorry if others think it is self centered to want to have fun on vacation.

A friend of mine lost her 14 yr old daughter a couple of years ago and during the first Christmas without her they took a cruise to escape the pain of the empty place in their home. I know the sight of a baby on a blanket in the tropics with a semi-attentive parent selling things would have upset her and indeed it SHOULD upset anyone with a conscious. The sight of things like that would upset anyone with a heart. Maybe I'm not callous enough.

If the Bahamian Government wants more tourism they will do what NYC did to Times Square. Clean it up and police it well. Can't they get a Disney store there?