Max Occupancy in DVC Resorts

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Originally posted by leanne2255
I have not seen anyone make the point that what if a 2 BR is not available, and you can only get a 1BR. Would you cancel your trip? Probably not. You would make do with 5 in a 1BR.

We would not go if we could not book a 2 bedroom. We will only go when everyone has a "bed" to sleep in and that does not include an aero bed.

It is not a vacation to us if you are camping out on the floor and stepping over people.

I don't care if the new ruling is 5 in a one bedroom, personally I would not do it due to comfort.

However I do think now it will open up the situation where 5 is legal let's sneak one more and make it six.
 
Originally posted by DebbieB
"Knowingly violates" is a matter of opinion. Most of these families of 5 were told they could have 5 in a 1 bedroom when they bought. In their minds, DVC gave them permission for an exception to this rule, so they are not knowingly violating the rule. DVC continually used this sales tactic and now they are standing behind it, which I think is the right thing. If they wanted to hold to the letter of the contract, they should have done that from day 1.
And as such, any complaints currently would be with DVC and not the members who use DVC within reason and within the guidelines told them by DVC and the guides. But those that feel this is a victimless crime are simply wrong. There are costs involved that affect each and every member. How much is somewhat irrelevant but I suspect it's larger than the additional fees will be at OKW for the pool. And while it's up to DVC to police, to say it's none of the membership's business is a bit selfish, not to mention wrong (another reference to previous thread's).

ErinC, my comments refer back to previous thread's on this subject. There are those out there that feel that DVC "owes" them something that is cheaper than a 2 BR and will sleep 6. And it is only those few people that should take any offense from my statements.

CaptainMidnight, my style is to be direct and honest. If that's a problem, I'm sorry. But I have to call it like I see it. If that's not ok, again I'm sorry.
I agree that this is most likely the case. And yet, doesn't it bother people that the guides are out there telling potential DVC owners unreliable information sometimes? It's really opening DVC up for claims of "false advertising" one of these days on some issue that the guides told someone. It seems that DVC would want to make an extra effort to see that guides are well-aquainted with current policies. Just my two cents.
Not really. DVC sales staff are milk toast. You should hear some of the lies and tactics used by others, like Westgate and others. DVC will likely only police this issue of those who feel strongly about it complain. Unfortunately, some have mistaken my willingness to discuss the issues involved as evidence that I feel strongly about the topic, which I do not.
 
Originally posted by CaptainMidnight
Whatever this is suppose to mean, Judy Kaufman's name was directly mentioned in the thread, and she does not deserve to be disparaged in any way. She is honest and forthright and has been a wonderful guide for us. Just because she may be sharing information that a poster doesn't agree with is no justification to cast aspersions. She really is great, and I'm confident her saying represents a management position.

Seriously, all I ask is that this thread isn't taken down the same paths (in some cases by the same people) that caused the other threads to be closed. That's all. Seems like a reasonable request. I believe I'm not alone in that desire for this thread.
Milk toast is a term used to define, bland, mild or the like. In this context, it means they are nice, honest, and attempt to be honorable.

As for the discussion, I'm not sure I agree that we can discuss the issues of this area without someone possibly getting upset. If we can't address the impact on the maint fees, legal issues, reasonableness, industry standards, product understanding checklist, POS and certain abuses; then why discuss it at all as those are the type of issues that make up the subject. The problem that has gotten previous thread's closed are two fold. One is that certain people have taken to direct personal attacks when they didn't agree with a position or simply have a problem with the person themselves. The other is that DIS goes overboard to avoid controversy most times.
 
Originally posted by Dean
But those that feel this is a victimless crime are simply wrong.

...to say it's none of the membership's business is a bit selfish, not to mention wrong...

DVC sales staff are milk toast.

I'm not sure I agree that we can discuss the issues of this area without someone possibly getting upset.

...certain people have taken to direct personal attacks when they didn't agree with a position or simply have a problem with the person themselves.
Hmm, hard to imagine why that is.


"Thread self-destruct sequence has begun, detonation in: 60, 59, 58, 57, 56..."
 
Originally posted by Dean
...impact on the maint fees, legal issues, reasonableness, industry standards, product understanding checklist, POS and certain abuses
Unfortunatly, some proporting knowledge in these areas are spreading missinformation. For example, DVC resorts are certainly not similar to the cruise industry where meals are included and issues of life jackets, and lifeboat capacity come into play. The analogy is far fetched at best IMHO. In other cases legal issues are claimed that do not have a basis in fact although they are presented as such, these pseudo legal claims are used as a rationalizatoin to justify a position by those without legal expertise IMHO. No need to rehash those faulty approaches here, lets keep the thread open.

The bottom line is we have information about an MS policy in this thread. IMO it is a reasonble policy. If others dont' think so, I understand and certainly they have every right to express it, but there's no reason to throw labels and names toward those that do agree.
Originally posted by Dean
...certain people have taken to direct personal attacks when they didn't agree with a position...
Agreed. I would submit those "certain people" are a larger audience and more inclusive than some would be willing to admit, and were observed from both sides of the issue.::yes:: No need to rehash those old approaches here.
Originally posted by rinkwide
Hmm, hard to imagine why that is.


"Thread self-destruct sequence has begun, detonation in: 60, 59, 58, 57, 56..."
Exactly. Thank you for pointing out what seemed very obvious to me.
 
As usual, this topic has begun to degrade quickly into comments about why the thread should be closed instead of discussion of the topic.

Further posts of this nature will be removed from the thread without comment or warning.

Thanks in advance.
 
Originally posted by WebmasterDoc
Judy Kaufman is certainly a well-respected DVC CM. She has been the vacation guide for many on this site and is very knowledgeable. The comments she reportedly made at the update are consistent with the attitude DVC seems to have taken about the occupancy issue.

The "official" written policy still states that the 1BR villa sleeps four (plus the child under 3). Since the indication is that no additional bedding or linens will be provided, that written policy still may stand, but the apparent comments indicate an attitude that DVC is still not planning to do head counts in DVC accommodations. I do not expect to see anything in writing from DVC about this - since additional bedding would need to be provided if occupancy is truly being changed. I view the comments as "what DVC is allowing" rather than a change in any "official" stance. I think it's more of a clarification of how DVC intends to turn it's head regarding this issue.
I agree doc. I don't think we'll see official documents rewritten. I also appreciate your comments about Judy, I'll give her a call soon and check in with her, and let her know she is being quoted so she is aware. I'll also reask her about this new policy.

5 in a one bedroom seems like a very resonable clarification to a policy of MS turning thier head or deciding what to allow and enforce that hasn't been clear. I feel 6 is too many, others may not.

I confess, I am bias by our family's vacation needs and my families comfort and safety during our vacation. I hope if there were only 4 of us, I'd still have the same view, but it wouldn't impact nearly to the same degree it does since we have 3 children and directly applies to us. I was pleased to read this new information. One of the reasons we bought into DVC was the flexibility and the ability to expand our accomodations to a two bedroom as our needs increased, we've purchased plenty of points at the two resorts where we own to make that happen.

Our next vacation is a two bedroom with the grandparents invited to join us. That'll be 7 in a two bedroom with one under 3. We are looking forward to a wonderful time.

Happy posting everyone.
 
Originally posted by CaptainMidnight
Unfortunatly, some proporting knowledge in these areas are spreading missinformation.
I'd like to know what you think is misinformation. If you want to discuss the topic, lets discuss it.
 
I was thrilled when I read that 5 people would "officially" be allowed in a one bedroom. With three young children it just makes sense for our family. I was also thrilled when they reopened this thread so I could let others know. I am so disappointed that the "same" discussions from the "same" posters have popped up again. This is an important thread to many people and if we could just help people who need it rather than discuss legal documents and who feels comfortable with what others should do, we would be alot better off.
 
Captain, since I did not quote any of your comments, I have not posted any critism of your situation.

I was responding to the comment that no one has posted they would cancel if they could not book a 2 bedroom and had to take the one bedroom.

We would. This does not work for us, it is not comfortable or enjoyable.

If 5 in a one bedroom works for you, then that is your personal choice, just as it is mine not to do it.

If you disagree with that I see it as a difference of opinion, I would never see it as a critism. Which is probably why I do not get upset over anything posted on the forums. :)
 
I remain curious about one issue that I don't think has ever been answered--the following are quotes from the documents we sign at the time of purchase:

"Occupancy in DVC Resort Vacation Homes is limited to 4 persons in a Studio or 1-Bedroom, 8 persons in a 2-Bedroom, and 12 persons in a 3-Bedroom."

"The prospective purchaser should not rely upon oral representations as being correct and should refer to this document and accompanying exhibits for correct representations. The seller is prohibited from making any representations other than those contained in this purchase agreement and this public offering statement."

Without debating whether 5 or more in a studio or 1BR makes logical or equitable sense, my question is why anyone would have any EXPECTATION, given these two statements, that they would be able to have five or more persons in these accomodations. I know what MS says and does, and I am not arguing with that. I'm asking about an owner's expectation basically at time of purchase, I guess. And keep in mind that even the times that MS has put the policy in writing in emails (including to me), that it still doesn't satisfy the above. I'm really not trying to or interested in debating the issue. I'm just really curious.
 
Originally posted by Doctor P
I remain curious about one issue that I don't think has ever been answered--the following are quotes from the documents we sign at the time of purchase:

"Occupancy in DVC Resort Vacation Homes is limited to 4 persons in a Studio or 1-Bedroom, 8 persons in a 2-Bedroom, and 12 persons in a 3-Bedroom."

"The prospective purchaser should not rely upon oral representations as being correct and should refer to this document and accompanying exhibits for correct representations. The seller is prohibited from making any representations other than those contained in this purchase agreement and this public offering statement."

Without debating whether 5 or more in a studio or 1BR makes logical or equitable sense, my question is why anyone would have any EXPECTATION, given these two statements, that they would be able to have five or more persons in these accomodations. I know what MS says and does, and I am not arguing with that. I'm asking about an owner's expectation basically at time of purchase, I guess. And keep in mind that even the times that MS has put the policy in writing in emails (including to me), that it still doesn't satisfy the above. I'm really not trying to or interested in debating the issue. I'm just really curious.


Just my opinion, but I think there are many families with 3 young children who take these DVC tours and decide not to buy because they would need a 2 bedroom. When they are assured by the guides, MS, and even the front desk CM's, that 5 is fine I think it's reasonable to assume that it is in fact "fine". These people are the FACE of the DVC to prospective members. Why would these families think they were being lied to? I think because of Disney's reputation many people will trust what it's representatives "say" even when that info is contradicted in legal documents. Is that smart in the long run? I don't know. We purchased enough for a 2 bedroom in the Fall or Winter. When our children are older if school becomes an issue, I'm sure we will purchase more points for summer stays. In the mean time, I still don't understand why any member would care if my children (all under 7) stayed in a 1 bedroom with us. I would never feel that comfortable with them in another bedroom with a door to the hallway and a balcony. My almost 3 year old is a major climber and somewhat of an escape artist. :p I'd prefer her to be right where I can see her. ::yes::
 
Originally posted by Doctor P
I remain curious about one issue that I don't think has ever been answered--the following are quotes from the documents we sign at the time of purchase:

"Occupancy in DVC Resort Vacation Homes is limited to 4 persons in a Studio or 1-Bedroom, 8 persons in a 2-Bedroom, and 12 persons in a 3-Bedroom."

"The prospective purchaser should not rely upon oral representations as being correct and should refer to this document and accompanying exhibits for correct representations. The seller is prohibited from making any representations other than those contained in this purchase agreement and this public offering statement."

Without debating whether 5 or more in a studio or 1BR makes logical or equitable sense, my question is why anyone would have any EXPECTATION, given these two statements, that they would be able to have five or more persons in these accomodations. I know what MS says and does, and I am not arguing with that. I'm asking about an owner's expectation basically at time of purchase, I guess. And keep in mind that even the times that MS has put the policy in writing in emails (including to me), that it still doesn't satisfy the above. I'm really not trying to or interested in debating the issue. I'm just really curious.
Doctor P, there are many facets to this question. The written rules are clear and straightforward. DVC has chosen to look the other way whether it be an extra under 3 or {possibly} 5 in a 1 BR. I don't think it's accurate to say MS doesn't care, but they don't appear to care enough to consistently enforce the rules at hand.

Add to this that the timeshare sales staff routinely tell people it's OK and it's no wonder a lot of people get the idea that it is. But the truth is that oral representations by a timeshare sales person are not an enforceable event. At this point any issues anyone would have would be against DVC and MS, not the members who use DVC reasonably but in violation of the written rules. I'm quite convinced it would be fairly easy to force DVC to enforce this issue. I suspect one well worded letter of complaint and one phone call to Tallahassee would change to total complexion of this issue forever if anyone were so moved to go that route. Personally I am one for following rules but not particularly concerned about an extra person, even two in a unit here and there ( know these are competing issues). But I do fell strongly about clarifying the issues and the misinformation (like MS does care or that the guides have the power to make oral contracts).

And the reality is that even if DVC strictly enforces the issues, there will still be a culture of people that sneak in. At that point the responsibility is with the guest and we'd be having a totally different discussion, likely one that would get closed quickly.
 
Dr. P, you pose an interesting question. We joined already having 4 kids so we knew right from the start that a 2 bedroom was in order. Many folks have 3 kids, it seems to be the norm around here. If those folks are wavering, to buy or not to buy, I can see a sales person telling them that a 1 bedroom would meet their needs, particularly when their kids are tiny, as so many on the dis seem to be (see the "how many people have kids?" poll.) So, I am sympathetic to them. It takes a lot of points to get a 2 bedroom, especially during school vacations. That is why we just bought more points. I don't have a real problem with them squeezing into a 1 bedroom, but I think in reality they will start to feel this is too tight as the kids grow. As Sammie put so well, stepping over people sleeping on the floor, and waiting in line for the bathroom, is no vacation IMO. Dean raises a good point too, some people will do what they want no matter what the rules are.
 
Originally posted by Doctor P
...my question is why anyone would have any EXPECTATION...that they would be able to have five or more persons in these accomodations...
Well, let's say you read about it being allowed on these boards, were told it was allowed by a guide, got a letter saying it was allowed from management, were allowed to book it with MS, and then actually checked-in and stayed five to a one-bedroom with no repercussions.

After all that I think someone might have a reasonable expectation no matter what the contract says.
 
Originally posted by rinkwide
Well, let's say you read about it being allowed on these boards, were told it was allowed by a guide, got a letter saying it was allowed from management, were allowed to book it with MS, and then actually checked-in and stayed five to a one-bedroom with no repercussions.

After all that I think someone might have a reasonable expectation no matter what the contract says.
I don't think there's any question how people can, and do, get the idea about this issue and a couple of others. I perfectly understand and anyone who is upset should be upset with DVC at this point, assuming "reasonable" use. OTOH, that does not preclude DVC from enforcing the written rules if they chose and while a member might have a valid argument to the contrary, they would not have a legal leg to stand on to force the issue. If push comes to shove, it will be what's in the contract, which is vividly clear. And everyone that bought directly from DVC signed a paper that says that they understand there are no oral representations outside the legal paperwork. Everyone that bought resale were then bound to the original written rules by nature of the deed and sale.

So if DVC does decide to enforce the policy more stringently, the proper response is "oh well, nothing lasts forever" or something to that effect.
 
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