Must read for parents- What if I am accidentally raising a bully?

[Mkrop]

But for some it happens all the time. I am sad for those who may not fit in socially, who struggle to adapt to social norms or ideas. Those are often the ones who grow up and do great things, but the kid years are hard on them.

I was not this kid, but I see these kids all the time.

They know they won't be included this time. Or the next. Or the next.

I try to help those kids find "each other" so that they do have friends to spend time with. it doesn't always work, but I try.

This reminds me of DS13's classmate V. V has always been an odd duck. Into things that the others are not. Our school is very sports oriented, he is not etc. But it seems as he has reached middle school, he has gotten worse. Probably a maturity factor but it is tough to hear how he is actually making it hard for himself to "fit in". Now DS13 has struggled with this as well at times, so I remind him that he was like V too and to be kind. V doesnt like the girls right now and is sometimes too vocal about it. On April Fools Day, many of the teachers "allowed" themselves to be pranked, so the 7th graders had what they thought were these elaborate ideas to prank their teachers. One teacher hates clicky pens and so they were all going to click their pens at 9:58. Another teacher they were all going to stand up and do the "dab", and finally one teacher hated a song, so they all set their Ipads to play that song at the same time. V went into the first class and announced what they were doing and that he wanted no part of it. So he ruined the "surprise". Like I said the teachers "tolerate" the one prank on that day and he did not seem to get why everyone was mad at him and he got a lot of grief for it. I mean some were downright mean to him and DS13 was slightly annoyed as well. They still did their pranks. I reminded him that no matter what he we not to get on V and to be kind. I reminded him that just a few years ago he would have been the one "ratting" out the class. We had many talks about when you need to tell the teacher things and when you need to stay quiet.

 

[DawnM]

This reminds me of DS13's classmate V. V has always been an odd duck. Into things that the others are not. Our school is very sports oriented, he is not etc. But it seems as he has reached middle school, he has gotten worse. Probably a maturity factor but it is tough to hear how he is actually making it hard for himself to "fit in". Now DS13 has struggled with this as well at times, so I remind him that he was like V too and to be kind. V doesnt like the girls right now and is sometimes too vocal about it. On April Fools Day, many of the teachers "allowed" themselves to be pranked, so the 7th graders had what they thought were these elaborate ideas to prank their teachers. One teacher hates clicky pens and so they were all going to click their pens at 9:58. Another teacher they were all going to stand up and do the "dab", and finally one teacher hated a song, so they all set their Ipads to play that song at the same time. V went into the first class and announced what they were doing and that he wanted no part of it. So he ruined the "surprise". Like I said the teachers "tolerate" the one prank on that day and he did not seem to get why everyone was mad at him and he got a lot of grief for it. I mean some were downright mean to him and DS13 was slightly annoyed as well. They still did their pranks. I reminded him that no matter what he we not to get on V and to be kind. I reminded him that just a few years ago he would have been the one "ratting" out the class. We had many talks about when you need to tell the teacher things and when you need to stay quiet.

It may not be maturity. It may just be that he thinks differently.

I should have added that I am the parent of a child with Asperger's. His intelligence is high, but he doesn't understand things like pranks and sarcasm and jokes. He can sometimes take things personally that weren't meant to be rude or personal.

I am sure people thought he was "just making it harder on himself." but his brain doesn't allow him to think like that.

THANK GOD we were able to homeschool him. He found friends more like him. When he was in school it was a nightmare.

He is now going to the community college and doing very well and thriving. He will be a great adult. The kid part is hard.

 

[Mkrop]

It may not be maturity. It may just be that he thinks differently.

I should have added that I am the parent of a child with Asperger's. His intelligence is high, but he doesn't understand things like pranks and sarcasm and jokes. He can sometimes take things personally that weren't meant to be rude or personal.

I am sure people thought he was "just making it harder on himself." but his brain doesn't allow him to think like that.

THANK GOD we were able to homeschool him. He found friends more like him. When he was in school it was a nightmare.

He is now going to the community college and doing very well and thriving. He will be a great adult. The kid part is hard.

The reason I said it MIGHT be a maturity thing is that DS13 was similar when he was younger, very black and white and he would tell on kids. Well this didnt go over well. He finally (sort of at times lol) gets it. If someone isnt hurting others or themselves it may be in his best interest to keep quiet with the teachers. He doesnt need to remind the teachers that they forgot to give homework that day lol

I also suspect V might be an Apergers kid, but since I am not an expert I dont want to label him. But you may be right about him.

Regardless I tell DS13 to not participate if they are giving V a hard time. I tell him to be kind to V, bc he is a nice boy(at times) but is struggling right now.

 

[Allons-y!]

But for some it happens all the time. I am sad for those who may not fit in socially, who struggle to adapt to social norms or ideas. Those are often the ones who grow up and do great things, but the kid years are hard on them.

I was not this kid, but I see these kids all the time.

They know they won't be included this time. Or the next. Or the next.

I try to help those kids find "each other" so that they do have friends to spend time with. it doesn't always work, but I try.

I do the same in my class, such as when I assign seats and when I make up groups for projects. I usually try to match up the kids that are struggling to find a friend with someone who is either having the same struggle or who isn't struggling but is kind and compassionate.

 

[DawnM]

The reason I said it MIGHT be a maturity thing is that DS13 was similar when he was younger, very black and white and he would tell on kids. Well this didnt go over well. He finally (sort of at times lol) gets it. If someone isnt hurting others or themselves it may be in his best interest to keep quiet with the teachers. He doesnt need to remind the teachers that they forgot to give homework that day lol

I also suspect V might be an Apergers kid, but since I am not an expert I dont want to label him. But you may be right about him.

Regardless I tell DS13 to not participate if they are giving V a hard time. I tell him to be kind to V, bc he is a nice boy(at times) but is struggling right now.

Yes, and it is also true that Asperger kids mature slower in many areas. My 18 year old is about 14-15 in many areas. He isn't driving, is afraid of driving, but passed driver's ed without a problem. His therapist says by 25-26 he will most likely be driving. He gets upset and angry and his responses are more in line with am immature 15 year old than an 18 year old. He is getting better, but it sometimes still comes out.

 

[Poohforyou]

Thanks for answering. I think what you are doing is great, and I do think that in a school setting where there is a game during recess that all kids should be included. I don't see this as forcing a friendship, and I think its very different for a parent to involve themselves and force their child to be friends with someone.

But the mom wasn't forcing her daughter to be friends with that other child. She just wanted her daughter not to be mean and dismissive of someone.

Geez, I remember in 1st grade tiny dd being picked on by a girl in her class. I asked my daughter about the other girl and why she thought the girl was picking on her. Turns out the other girl was by far the tallest 1st grader and was likely picked on herself. Talk about a perfect opportunity to teach empathy. In the end my dd became friendly with this other girl.

Our children need our guidance to navigate through life. Would I take the same approach as the mother in the article? Probably not but I understand and agree with what she was trying to do.

My dd is still the tiniest girl in her class. As a junior she's barely 5' and weighs about 80lb. However, she has the confidence of a giant and a healthy dose of empathy towards those who stand out for a variety of reasons.

 

[Sydney2977]

I agree that we need to try to teach our kids to live by the golden rule, but we can't force them to be friends with someone either. Thankfully both of my kids feel comfortable talking to me so when they've come to me with things like the girl in the post did, I've tried to explain to them to see things from the other kid's point of view.

My oldest has always been the type not to really care what others think so I didn't worry about him as much. He'd tell me about situations and more often ask me what he should do or if he did the right thing.

My youngest tends to be a little more of a follower- if he's around the wrong type of kids he'll join up with them in sometimes not so nice behavior, like teasing or laughing at someone or excluding them. I try to encourage him to be more of a "leader" and stand up for what he knows is right, not what is popular. It's tough for kids not to go along with the crowd. I think that's where a lot of bullying comes from- those kids are trying to fit in too. As parents we need to encourage our kids to have self esteem, but not at the expense of putting others down or thinking they are better than everyone else. Now that DS is a little older I think he understands a little more, but there still some situations he tells me about that when I turn around with a "well what if.." and put him in that place he realizes how it may impact someone else. I try not to berate him though because I still want him to come to me and share stuff so that I can continue to try to teach him the right thing to do. They have to learn to make the choice on their own when we're not around.

 

[Cannot_Wait_4Disney]

The mom sounds like a nut. Just because her kid didn't want to play with another kid does not make her a bully.

But being in a clique and freezing a kid out for no legit reason does. Shunning for no legit reason is a more subtle type of bullying. But it is bullying. And after mom made the kid do the right thing her kid found out the other kid wasn't so bad.

 

[Hikergirl]

Its the mom's "every human being deserves our attention and respect" attitude that I really don't agree with. I don't believe everyone deserves our attention, I believe we as individuals deserve to choose who we want to give our attention too. I guess in some people's eyes not giving attention to others you don't want too is unkind, or borderline bullying. That is not how I see it at all.
The mom says her dd was not overtly unkind, there was no name calling, she just didn't have any interest in this other kid, and the mom forced the issue. She called the kid's mom, and spoke to teachers about it. That goes a little to far into controling and helicoptering for my taste. By the time my kids were in 4th grade they knew what kind of kid they wanted to hang out with, mom wasn't forcing playdates anymore, they were picking their own friends.
I would let it happen naturally, if this kid did have something to offer as far as friendship it will happen, if she doesn't then it isn't meant to be.
Sure this story had a happy outcome, but the truth is we have no idea what would have happened if the mom decided not to involve herself at all. The kids were in 4th grade, assuming neither was moving any time soon they would have years to develop of a friendship, or not, which is okay too.

I don't agree with her approach at all, but I do agree that we should all be kind. It just depends on what you call "kind" and "unkind" and I don't see kids not having any interest in another as unkind. How they act is what would determine their level of kindness, are they nasty, calling names, laughing at the kid. Or are they just not paying attention them, or telling them they really don't want to hang out or play.
Parents need to teach their kids how to handle rejection as much as they need to teach their kids not to be bullies. Both very valuable life lessons.

 

[Allons-y!]

Its the mom's "every human being deserves our attention and respect" attitude that I really don't agree with. I don't believe everyone deserves our attention, I believe we as individuals deserve to choose who we want to give our attention too. I guess in some people's eyes not giving attention to others you don't want too is unkind, or borderline bullying. That is not how I see it at all.
The mom says her dd was not overtly unkind, there was no name calling, she just didn't have any interest in this other kid, and the mom forced the issue. She called the kid's mom, and spoke to teachers about it. That goes a little to far into controling and helicoptering for my taste. By the time my kids were in 4th grade they knew what kind of kid they wanted to hang out with, mom wasn't forcing playdates anymore, they were picking their own friends.
I would let it happen naturally, if this kid did have something to offer as far as friendship it will happen, if she doesn't then it isn't meant to be.
Sure this story had a happy outcome, but the truth is we have no idea what would have happened if the mom decided not to involve herself at all. The kids were in 4th grade, assuming neither was moving any time soon they would have years to develop of a friendship, or not, which is okay too.

I don't agree with her approach at all, but I do agree that we should all be kind. It just depends on what you call "kind" and "unkind" and I don't see kids not having any interest in another as unkind. How they act is what would determine their level of kindness, are they nasty, calling names, laughing at the kid. Or are they just not paying attention them, or telling them they really don't want to hang out or play.
Parents need to teach their kids how to handle rejection as much as they need to teach their kids not to be bullies. Both very valuable life lessons.

What you don't seem to want to see is that kids...and adults...often don't even give others a chance simply because they aren't already popular, or like the same things they do, or dress differently, etc. If you think rejecting people for those reasons isn't being unkind, then, well, that's a real shame.

The message in the mom's post wasn't that friendships should be forced. That is not what she did. She made her daughter GIVE THE OTHER KID A CHANCE. That's all. And her daughter ended up finding a new friend.

Sure, it could have turned out differently. It could have turned out that they had nothing in common. But the author's daughter couldn't know that if she simply rejected her for no reason.

 

[Hikergirl]

What you don't seem to want to see is that kids...and adults...often don't even give others a chance simply because they aren't already popular, or like the same things they do, or dress differently, etc. If you think rejecting people for those reasons isn't being unkind, then, well, that's a real shame.

The message in the mom's post wasn't that friendships should be forced. That is not what she did. She made her daughter GIVE THE OTHER KID A CHANCE. That's all. And her daughter ended up finding a new friend.

Sure, it could have turned out differently. It could have turned out that they had nothing in common. But the author's daughter couldn't know that if she simply rejected her for no reason.

I see that perfectly well and if you have read any of my posts in this thread you would know that I'm not talking about rejecting for no reason. My point is that there are legitimate reasons why kids don't want to include someone, or be friends with someone, but that of course is never considered. The kid doing the ignoring is often assumed to be mean, or a bully. Everyone thinks those kids need to put their own feelings aside to spare the feelings of the ignored kid. I don't


I've used my own child as an example because he has legitimate reasons for not wanting to hang out with certain kids. It has nothing to do with being unpopular, my kid himself isn't very high up on the social ladder. It has nothing to do with not dressing the same. It has to do with the behavior of those kids, but again that is rarely taken into consideration. They aren't mean or bullies but there are things they do that make them hard to get along with. I'm not going to force my child to deal with those behaviors just so he can appear "kind". He is kind because not wanting to be around someone you don't like isn't unkind. I'm not going to control who he has to get to know, he is free to make his own choices and not be forced to put aside his own (legitimate) feelings just to make someone else feel good. If he wants to give someone a chance, he can decide that on his own, I would never force him too like the mother in the article did.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

For some people, I guess, being kind means not doing something. Not being mean, nasty, laughing at someone, etc.

For others, it means actually doing something. Being friendly, generous, considerate of someone, etc. It's actually putting yourself out there and making it happen.

I think, in its simplest forms, this may be the disconnect we're seeing here.

noun: kindness
The quality of being friendly, generous, and considerate; a kind act

 

[Allons-y!]

I see that perfectly well and if you have read any of my posts in this thread you would know that I'm not talking about rejecting for no reason. My point is that there are legitimate reasons why kids don't want to include someone, or be friends with someone, but that of course is never considered. The kid doing the ignoring is often assumed to be mean, or a bully. Everyone thinks those kids need to put their own feelings aside to spare the feelings of the ignored kid. I don't

I've used my own child as an example because he has legitimate reasons for not wanting to hang out with certain kids. It has nothing to do with being unpopular, my kid himself isn't very high up on the social ladder. It has nothing to do with not dressing the same. It has to do with the behavior of those kids, but again that is rarely taken into consideration. They aren't mean or bullies but there are things they do that make them hard to get along with. I'm not going to force my child to deal with those behaviors just so he can appear "kind". He is kind because not wanting to be around someone you don't like isn't unkind. I'm not going to control who he has to get to know, he is free to make his own choices and not be forced to put aside his own (legitimate) feelings just to make someone else feel good. If he wants to give someone a chance, he can decide that on his own, I would never force him too like the mother in the article did.

No, you are wrong. Nobody here has ignored the fact that there are legitimate reasons for not pursuing friendships or for excluding someone. That isn't even what the article in the OP was about.

As for the mom in the article, she was dealing with a child who was actively rejecting someone for no reason who was trying to get to know her. That's a different scenario than what you keep talking about. We are discussing apples and oranges. Peace out.

 

[Sydney2977]

I think we need to encourage our kids to be kind, but we can't make them. It's not kindness if someone else is making them do it. They need to learn to make that choice on their own and as parents we can guide them to make the right choices. (kind of like if you do their homework for them they may get a good grade, but they aren't learning the material themselves) I'm not going to force my kids be friends with someone, but I would also not tolerate them being mean.

Adults, think about it: there are people you work with, or live in your neighborhood, or are parents to kids that your kids go to school with or are in after school activities with. You're probably (hopefully) at least cordial to all of these people. But do you always take the mom that wrote the article's advice? Do you always find out three things about that person to try to be friends with them? I doubt it. I know I don't. I'm guilty just like most people of judging on first impressions sometimes. So it shouldn't surprise us that kids do the same.

I guess I lie somewhere in the middle of this debate. I'm not jumping in like the mom in the article, but I'm not sitting idle either. I just try to encourage dialog from my kids, and sometimes even their friends, about human interaction, even bringing up some mistakes I've made in my behavior and how that affects others. You can't force empathy or kindness, but I hope I can inspire it.

 

[Mkrop]

Ds18 has had some real gems to deal with over the years...one year btw the summer of 3rd and 4th, he asked not to go back to his school bc of J. J was being mean to DS. Well I wasnt pulling him from school but I talked to his teacher and asked her to keep an eye on things. She made them do several projects together. DS was not happy at first. I told him he had to learn to get along even with people he didnt like but if things got uncomfortable come to me or his teacher and we would talk about it. Few hiccups but they got to know each other better, the teasing and name calling stopped. Then basketball season came and J's dad picked DS. I was very nervousa nd wondered if i should ask for DS to be traded. But much to my surprise, it was a great season and J's dad always tried to draft DS and they played on teams quite frequently and then every year in high school (CYO league or rec league). They are not best friends where they hang out at all but DS does like J now, it took them both being "forced" and giving things a chance. But I know DS will miss playing basketball and seeing him next year when he goes off to college.

Do things always work out, no, but if I had only considered DS's feelings it may have had a different outcome.


But I also do understand Hikergirl to a degree. We recently had the 8th grade bully come back around after 30 plus years. I was new to the school so I didnt tell anyone how she treated me. She went to a different high school. Over the years her name would come up and everyone said how mean she was. I grew closer to everyone , girls were in my wedding, we went to each other's events etc. Super close. We were planning the 30th reunion and this woman of course gets found and invited to the event. She has now become their new best buddy. I tried to be around this person, I cant do it. Everything about her makes me cringe and I am right back to feeling like I was in 8th grade. I finally verbalized this to my friends bc they were including her in more and more stuff. I was always nice but felt totally uncomfortable. I am now being the one excluded from this group of woman I called friends bc I am not willing to suck it up and be around her. It stinks and hurts beyond belief. I was invited to something that I will go to and she will most likely be there. I will be nice as I always am bc that is the right thing to do But I did not like being forced but I did try and I think that is all we can ask of our kids or other adults.

I hope all of that makes sense.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Of course there are going to be people that other people don't like. That's human nature. You see it in animals, too. Sometimes I sit around dogs and watch the one dog that all the other dogs don't like, and wonder what it is that makes him that way; what others pick up on, etc. In people, it happens. DD18 recently started dating a new guy. We were kind to him but there was something off-putting about him. Nothing bad, really, just a vibe. DH and I discussed it, but we didn't say anything to DD since she seemed to like him. Then something happened between them and that was the end of their seeing eachother. Anyway, people close to her who had met him began telling her their feelings about him, which were very similar to ours. He somehow managed to put off a lot of people in a short period of time. I told DD he would probably be one of those people who others just didn't like, whether it be in social circles or work or school situations, etc. I also think it's good to pay attention to one's instincts.

So I respect what people want to teach their kids however they see it. I happened to have a mother who is inherently kind. She's one of those people who probably doesn't even see it in herself, she's just a very simplistic, kind, giving person. So that was the role model I had growing up. I probably took it a step farther, and at some point in my life became aware of being deliberately kind, and I think of it in a spiritual manner, i.e. it's good for me, my life, and the world around me, etc. I believe being kind in life brings wellness and good things (karma) so I've taught my kids to be that way as well. One of my strongest rules when they started school was that if someone was hurting and being made fun of, mine were not to be among those laughing, they were to be among those helping that child. So was that forcing? I guess it was, yes. And I'm ok with that. Because what they feel in that situation is better than what they feel if it were the other way around. It's a goodness, and I think parents have to teach it.

 

[Hikergirl]

No, you are wrong. Nobody here has ignored the fact that there are legitimate reasons for not pursuing friendships or for excluding someone. That isn't even what the article in the OP was about.

As for the mom in the article, she was dealing with a child who was actively rejecting someone for no reason who was trying to get to know her. That's a different scenario than what you keep talking about. We are discussing apples and oranges. Peace out.

I meant people in general, not necessarily individuals on this thread.

I'm talking about how I feel about the mother in the article based on my own child's experiences and how I parent. That parent forced herself into a situation that IMO didn't need her involvement. If her daughter wanted to get to know that child she would, if she didn't well there really IS nothing wrong with that either.

I am discussing on a discussion board, sorry my discussion doesn't meet your approval.

 

[Hikergirl]

So I respect what people want to teach their kids however they see it. I happened to have a mother who is inherently kind. She's one of those people who probably doesn't even see it in herself, she's just a very simplistic, kind, giving person. So that was the role model I had growing up. I probably took it a step farther, and at some point in my life became aware of being deliberately kind, and I think of it in a spiritual manner, i.e. it's good for me, my life, and the world around me, etc. I believe being kind in life brings wellness and good things (karma) so I've taught my kids to be that way as well. One of my strongest rules when they started school was that if someone was hurting and being made fun of, mine were not to be among those laughing, they were to be among those helping that child. So was that forcing? I guess it was, yes. And I'm ok with that. Because what they feel in that situation is better than what they feel if it were the other way around. It's a goodness, and I think parents have to teach it.

I don't think that was forcing anything, that's pretty much a common sense rule, and one that I think most parents teach their children.
In this article the mom admits that her child wasn't overtly unkind or called the other girl names. She said she just wasn't interested in that girl. She apparently called the mom of that girl and then talked to the teachers about it. I guess for me I don't see any reason to get involved in that situation. If the dd was name calling, making fun of, then yes by all means talk to the teachers, maybe call the mom too but to insert yourself just because your child isn't interested in another kid is controlling IMO. Then there is the punishment of not driving her to school if she didn't ask the girl 3 things. What some see as teaching I see as forcing.
There is nothing wrong with letting your children decide on their own who they want to get to know. As long as they aren't being overtly mean by making fun of, laughing at, and deliberately hurting feelings there is no reason to step in. I think that mom had her helicopter blades whirring a little too fast.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I think we are too quick to talk about helicopter blades.

And I think we probably sometimes leave too much up to our kids' discretion. In some cultures, the wisdom of the elders in the family is sought after and revered. Here, we seem to want to be increasingly "hands off".

It'll probably have to be agree to disagree. Discussion is good, though.

 

[Hikergirl]

I think we are too quick to talk about helicopter blades.

And I think we probably sometimes leave too much up to our kids' discretion. In some cultures, the wisdom of the elders in the family is sought after and revered. Here, we seem to want to be increasingly "hands off".

It'll probably have to be agree to disagree. Discussion is good, though.

Sounds good