Orlando Airport Security Screening last weekend - getting worse not better

[sam_gordon]

Most people? What does that mean? Go to any airport and observe the number of people on line to check in with an agent or kiosk. Is it most or some? Does not make a difference. The news is full of stories about the outrageous delays caused by TSA. Congressional hearings are in progress in this matter. People have posted on this forum about the lines. I have talked with many that experienced these lines. I have seen them for myself on numerous occasions.

Got some free time? Go to one of the major airports in the morning and see for yourself.

Well, I define "most people" as the majority. I've flown from Vegas, Cinci, and Louisville since the beginning of the year. Not large airports, but the counter lines were extremely small.

You asked how much earlier than 4:45AM people need to show up for a flight. The answer is "it depends". What time is the flight? How busy is the airport? I don't think you can complain if you miss your 6am flight at MCO after showing up at 4:45AM. If you miss your 7AM flight, yes, there's a problem.

 

[betterbutter]

Well, I define "most people" as the majority. I've flown from Vegas, Cinci, and Louisville since the beginning of the year. Not large airports, but the counter lines were extremely small.

You asked how much earlier than 4:45AM people need to show up for a flight. The answer is "it depends". What time is the flight? How busy is the airport? I don't think you can complain if you miss your 6am flight at MCO after showing up at 4:45AM. If you miss your 7AM flight, yes, there's a problem.

I've flown in and out of Orlando many times, probably 20+ at this point. The length of lines to check in greatly depends on the time of day and carrier.

The longest lines I've ever seen anywhere were at LHR around 8:00 am on a Sunday. Simply insane at around 90 minutes for security. The longest domestically have typically been at MCO, EWR, PHL, and LAX. I recently flew in and out of AUS, and was very happy for Pre. The security line was about 35 minutes--far too long for a smaller regional airport at 10:00 am no a Friday. TF Green is another that is usually far too long of a wait for security for a small airport.

 

[sam_gordon]

I've flown in and out of Orlando many times, probably 20+ at this point. The length of lines to check in greatly depends on the time of day and carrier.

The longest lines I've ever seen anywhere were at LHR around 8:00 am on a Sunday. Simply insane at around 90 minutes for security. The longest domestically have typically been at MCO, EWR, PHL, and LAX. I recently flew in and out of AUS, and was very happy for Pre. The security line was about 35 minutes--far too long for a smaller regional airport at 10:00 am no a Friday. TF Green is another that is usually far too long of a wait for security for a small airport.

Please read what I was responding to. I'm talking about the check in lines at the airline counter, NOT the security lines. Again, I'm not doubting security lines in some airports have been long. But I don't think you can make a blanket question of "how much earlier than 4:45AM do I need to show up", without including your flight time and airport.

 

[joxer1014]

Leaving for MCO in a few weeks and will be returning home on a Monday evening. This is the first time we will be using DME to get to MCO to fly home. In the past we have rented a car so we always controlled our own destiny. Now we will be at the mercy of DME. We have already requested to leave an hour earlier from WDW. What I would like to know is how bad is it on a Monday evening? We have been to WDW many times but I believe that this will be our first time flying home on a Monday.

 

[betterbutter]

Please read what I was responding to. I'm talking about the check in lines at the airline counter, NOT the security lines. Again, I'm not doubting security lines in some airports have been long. But I don't think you can make a blanket question of "how much earlier than 4:45AM do I need to show up", without including your flight time and airport.

I agree that check in times will vary by time and carrier. Also bad weather in other parts of the country can affect flights, and cause all sorts of check in delays. I still stand that LHR has some of the longest check in times in the world regardless of carrier.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Makes one wonder just why all other airports don't have the long lines that MCO has. Atlanta handles way more passengers than MCO. Last I heard it was the busiest airport in the country but that could have changed. I've flown out of there a lot, at all times of the day and never had an excessive wait at security. They seem to be very alert to lines building up and as soon as one starts to snake too long, they open more lines or route more in to PreCheck lines

You are comparing apples or oranges.

Atlanta has a more even flow of passengers. Orlando has a very difficult passenger travel pattern because it's based on factors like Magical Express from Disney, Cruise ship drop offs, etc.

A very large part of Atlanta's traffic is transfers which do not go thorough security. Regional traffic is significantly lower.

Atlanta gets a lot of investment / gifts in hardware from Delta since it's a Delta hub. MCO isn't a major hub for anyone (they are a minor hub for JetBlue, and Southwest has a lot of flights there, but they are not considered a Southwest Hub).

IMHO MCO is no "worse" than the past, but it's no better either. It depends when you hit it. In Feb we walked right thorough. In May we were there for 40 minutes. if you are right after a cruise shop or two empties out, you're in a world of hurt.

Honestly most airports don't have to deal with the very odd traffic patterns MCO has which makes it horribly unpredictable for them. It could be made a lot better - there are some terrific innovations which would help. However, the TSA isn't overly interested and doesn't have the budget to fix it.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

I'm confused about the whole 'some airlines don't offer it'.....I didn't think it was an airline specific thing. Shouldn't have anything to do with a specific airline.

The airline reservation system has to send your information to APIS prior to your flight. It has to receive back the precheck identification number. that all has to be passed to the Airline DCS which has to generate the barcode that indicates you are qualified for pre-check.

So yes, the airlines have some work to do in order to be pre-check compatible.

 

[goofy4tink]

The airline reservation system has to send your information to APIS prior to your flight. It has to receive back the precheck identification number. that all has to be passed to the Airline DCS which has to generate the barcode that indicates you are qualified for pre-check.

So yes, the airlines have some work to do in order to be pre-check compatible.

True, but once I have TSA Precheck listed on my airline site, they shouldn't have to 'check it' for every flight. Just the once, when it first hits the system. And what happens to those that haven't paid for precheck? Those that have it just randomly show up on their boarding passes? Or, my family, for instance, who seem to get precheck whenever they are on the same itinerary I'm on? I have paid for precheck, none of them have.
It all just seems so haphazard.

 

[OrangeCountyCommuter]

You are comparing apples or oranges.

Atlanta has a more even flow of passengers. Orlando has a very difficult passenger travel pattern because it's based on factors like Magical Express from Disney, Cruise ship drop offs, etc.

A very large part of Atlanta's traffic is transfers which do not go thorough security. Regional traffic is significantly lower.

Atlanta gets a lot of investment / gifts in hardware from Delta since it's a Delta hub. MCO isn't a major hub for anyone (they are a minor hub for JetBlue, and Southwest has a lot of flights there, but they are not considered a Southwest Hub).

IMHO MCO is no "worse" than the past, but it's no better either. It depends when you hit it. In Feb we walked right thorough. In May we were there for 40 minutes. if you are right after a cruise shop or two empties out, you're in a world of hurt.

Honestly most airports don't have to deal with the very odd traffic patterns MCO has which makes it horribly unpredictable for them. It could be made a lot better - there are some terrific innovations which would help. However, the TSA isn't overly interested and doesn't have the budget to fix it.

Actually Atlanta no longer has the nice easy flow and fairly quick TSA lines. It's running close to an hour thanks to the "brilliant" decisions made by the management of the Thousands Standing Around.

 

[AngiTN]

You are comparing apples or oranges.

Atlanta has a more even flow of passengers. Orlando has a very difficult passenger travel pattern because it's based on factors like Magical Express from Disney, Cruise ship drop offs, etc.

A very large part of Atlanta's traffic is transfers which do not go thorough security. Regional traffic is significantly lower.

Atlanta gets a lot of investment / gifts in hardware from Delta since it's a Delta hub. MCO isn't a major hub for anyone (they are a minor hub for JetBlue, and Southwest has a lot of flights there, but they are not considered a Southwest Hub).

IMHO MCO is no "worse" than the past, but it's no better either. It depends when you hit it. In Feb we walked right thorough. In May we were there for 40 minutes. if you are right after a cruise shop or two empties out, you're in a world of hurt.

Honestly most airports don't have to deal with the very odd traffic patterns MCO has which makes it horribly unpredictable for them. It could be made a lot better - there are some terrific innovations which would help. However, the TSA isn't overly interested and doesn't have the budget to fix it.

Actually Atlanta no longer has the nice easy flow and fairly quick TSA lines. It's running close to an hour thanks to the "brilliant" decisions made by the management of the Thousands Standing Around.

Actually, it's my understanding the issues at Atlanta are currently due to an upgrade on one of the check points. They closed one 2, 3 weeks ago to replace all the equipment. I forget now how long it was supposed to be down, may have opened up again already for all I know.

But before they closed it their waits were really reasonable all things considered. Even when we found they had long lines they managed it better than MCO. So the issues at MCO are not purely volume, it's how they manage the traffic flow. Just watch a few minutes sometime and you'll see

And also, Delta in ATL is in it's own terminal. They aren't going to give equipment to the other terminal. That's the one we have always used and found it moved very smoothly

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Actually, it's my understanding the issues at Atlanta are currently due to an upgrade on one of the check points. They closed one 2, 3 weeks ago to replace all the equipment. I forget now how long it was supposed to be down, may have opened up again already for all I know.

But before they closed it their waits were really reasonable all things considered. Even when we found they had long lines they managed it better than MCO. So the issues at MCO are not purely volume, it's how they manage the traffic flow. Just watch a few minutes sometime and you'll see

And also, Delta in ATL is in it's own terminal. They aren't going to give equipment to the other terminal. That's the one we have always used and found it moved very smoothly

the upgrade you are refering to is actually one of their most recent gifts.
https://skift.com/2016/05/29/delta-is-trying-to-innovate-faster-security-lanes-for-the-tsa/
Now, Delta Air Lines has gone so far as to design and install its own checkpoints into Atlanta Hartsfield Jackson International Airport and gift them to the TSA.

Yes - Delta is not installing hardware for the other terminals - that's true. But if you look at the passenger flow for the other terminals and the associated wait times, I don't think Atlanta has a lot of weird traffic patterns there. So again, you are comparing apples to oranges. Atlanta's traffic patterns are nothing like those that Orlando faces.

 

[TiggerBouncy]

True, but once I have TSA Precheck listed on my airline site, they shouldn't have to 'check it' for every flight. Just the once, when it first hits the system. And what happens to those that haven't paid for precheck? Those that have it just randomly show up on their boarding passes? Or, my family, for instance, who seem to get precheck whenever they are on the same itinerary I'm on? I have paid for precheck, none of them have.
It all just seems so haphazard.

Actually, they have to send the APIS information 24 hours in advance every time you fly. It only shows up on your boarding pass once they have sent it to the TSA, and the TSA sends a response. So if you don't pay, the TSA rejects it and it doesn't show up. The only advantage to having it on their website is you don't have to enter it each time, but the airline does have to confirm it every time. It's like a saved credit card - you don't have to retype it, but they still have to verify and charge it! HOWEVER, you are correct that if their website can take it and they did it once, then the airline is perfectly capable of doing it; so it's not a problem after that of an airline being 'capable'.

Regarding the haphazard nature of it - yeah. It's is a little flimsy at the moment. I am definitely NOT a fan of the TSA's systems. Note that is mostly not the airline, and it's not the airport. It's the TSA's computers not verifying the APIS against pre-check.

 

[AngiTN]

Actually, they have to send the APIS information 24 hours in advance every time you fly. It only shows up on your boarding pass once they have sent it to the TSA, and the TSA sends a response. So if you don't pay, the TSA rejects it and it doesn't show up. The only advantage to having it on their website is you don't have to enter it each time, but the airline does have to confirm it every time. It's like a saved credit card - you don't have to retype it, but they still have to verify and charge it! HOWEVER, you are correct that if their website can take it and they did it once, then the airline is perfectly capable of doing it; so it's not a problem after that of an airline being 'capable'.

Regarding the haphazard nature of it - yeah. It's is a little flimsy at the moment. I am definitely NOT a fan of the TSA's systems. Note that is mostly not the airline, and it's not the airport. It's the TSA's computers not verifying the APIS against pre-check.

Why does anyone get it who hasn't paid for it?

 

[AngiTN]

the upgrade you are refering to is actually one of their most recent gifts.
https://skift.com/2016/05/29/delta-is-trying-to-innovate-faster-security-lanes-for-the-tsa/
Now, Delta Air Lines has gone so far as to design and install its own checkpoints into Atlanta Hartsfield Jackson International Airport and gift them to the TSA.

Yes - Delta is not installing hardware for the other terminals - that's true. But if you look at the passenger flow for the other terminals and the associated wait times, I don't think Atlanta has a lot of weird traffic patterns there. So again, you are comparing apples to oranges. Atlanta's traffic patterns are nothing like those that Orlando faces.

No, I am. I'm just doing a poor job of explaining it.

Here's a dumbed down example (for illustration, not saying I've experience these exact figures) in hopes I can make myself more clear. And I'm not talking about us going through the Delta terminal, we don't fly Delta from ATL
At Atlanta I can get in the line at TSA check point and be 50 people back. It will take me 15 min to get through.
At MCO I can get in the line at the TSA check point, be 50 people back and take 45 min to get through.
Same number of people in line, takes a lot longer to get through.
That's what I'm comparing. Not talking about how many people show up at once but comparing being in the same size line at each location and how long it takes to process the line

 

[TiggerBouncy]

Why does anyone get it (precheck) who hasn't paid for it?

This is actually a bit of a marketing thing. When TSA launched the program, they had a figure they were aiming for - and I am going off a presentation I was at many, many moons ago and I do NOT remember the exact numbers, so these are used to illustrate the point ONLY. But the idea was say - 15% of domestic travelers by 2020.

Since they had diverted resources to precheck, but didn't have any people signed up yet, they put in place a system where it randomly pulls people to fill up that percentage. So for 2015 for example if they needed to be at 12%, and they were only at 10% they would randomly grant it to 2% of the people.

The theory was 3 fold -
1. it would make use of the resources that had been put in place toward the program (those extra security lines that sit around largely empty)
2. It would help vet out the program and test it
3. People who got it and liked it would go sign up for it.

As the program fills up and they meet their quotas, that random selection should go away (unless they modified it further).

 

[TiggerBouncy]

No, I am. I'm just doing a poor job of explaining it.

Here's a dumbed down example (for illustration, not saying I've experience these exact figures) in hopes I can make myself more clear. And I'm not talking about us going through the Delta terminal, we don't fly Delta from ATL
At Atlanta I can get in the line at TSA check point and be 50 people back. It will take me 15 min to get through.
At MCO I can get in the line at the TSA check point, be 50 people back and take 45 min to get through.
Same number of people in line, takes a lot longer to get through.
That's what I'm comparing. Not talking about how many people show up at once but comparing being in the same size line at each location and how long it takes to process the line

Same number of scanning stations? Were all stations open and running? remember that the TSA staffs the number of stations based on what the EXPECTED passenger flow is. That's easier to predict in ATL than in MCO for the reasons I pointed above.

Another reason - ON AVERAGE, you have a more experienced traveler in security at ATL. MCO has to deal with a lot of kids, strollers, babies, etc. Also a lot of elderly compared to ATL. ATL's crowd is generally in the over 20, under 65. Not saying there is anything wrong with being young or old. However when it comes to security, that crowd is quicker to remove shoes, laptops, etc.

ON AVERAGE, MCO has people who have more liquids and medicines in their carry on (based on where you are going / coming from, the profile for a MCO passenger includes things like suntan lotion and toiletries in carry on baggage as their bags are checked in by Bags-to-go (DME / Cruise Lines). If they are cruise line, their checked bags were collected the night before and they never, ever remember to move it at customs).

ON AVERAGE, MCO has more people triggering the restricted materials sensors in the x-ray machine requiring more manual inspection of luggage (often because of ruboff of things like suntan lotion, spilled substances and liquids on their clothes, etc).

ON AVERAGE, MCO has more people who require manual inspection because of hip surgery, pace makers, etc. (Grandparents or older visitors to parks).

Again, these are averages based on passenger profiles. I cannot speak to the exact line you were in.

We have a saying in the industry... "When you've seen one airport, you've seen.... one airport". EVERY airport is unique and a solution that works for one may not work for another based on things like passenger profiles, flight schedules, location of the airport, ground handlers, weather patterns, etc. It takes time and effort to tweak a security lane. ATL has a good handle on their passenger profiles. MCO... not so much. Largely, that's the TSA'a fault, but not ALL of it. In any case, it's sadly not just an issue of training (much as I wish it were that simple).

 

[AngiTN]

We have a saying in the industry... "When you've seen one airport, you've seen.... one airport". EVERY airport is unique and a solution that works for one may not work for another based on things like passenger profiles, flight schedules, location of the airport, ground handlers, weather patterns, etc. It takes time and effort to tweak a security lane. ATL has a good handle on their passenger profiles. MCO... not so much. Largely, that's the TSA'a fault, but not ALL of it. In any case, it's sadly not just an issue of training (much as I wish it were that simple).

And this is precisely what I'm saying. ATL has managed to tweak their crowd managment better than MCO. Is ATL perfect, nope, I'm sure they are not. Nor am I trying to lay blame at any one organization, it's not all TSA's fault, not all the airport managements fault. Point remains, MCO doesn't do quite as good a job on the whole. They have further to go to improve than some other airports

 

[AngiTN]

This is actually a bit of a marketing thing. When TSA launched the program, they had a figure they were aiming for - and I am going off a presentation I was at many, many moons ago and I do NOT remember the exact numbers, so these are used to illustrate the point ONLY. But the idea was say - 15% of domestic travelers by 2020.

Since they had diverted resources to precheck, but didn't have any people signed up yet, they put in place a system where it randomly pulls people to fill up that percentage. So for 2015 for example if they needed to be at 12%, and they were only at 10% they would randomly grant it to 2% of the people.

The theory was 3 fold -
1. it would make use of the resources that had been put in place toward the program (those extra security lines that sit around largely empty)
2. It would help vet out the program and test it
3. People who got it and liked it would go sign up for it.

As the program fills up and they meet their quotas, that random selection should go away (unless they modified it further).

I know why they offered it for free. You had said this
It only shows up on your boarding pass once they have sent it to the TSA, and the TSA sends a response. So if you don't pay, the TSA rejects it and it doesn't show up.
But I don't think it's quite so black and white, is it?
They obviously don't reject all passengers that didn't pay for it. People are still getting it for free

 

[TiggerBouncy]

And this is precisely what I'm saying. ATL has managed to tweak their crowd managment better than MCO. Is ATL perfect, nope, I'm sure they are not. Nor am I trying to lay blame at any one organization, it's not all TSA's fault, not all the airport managements fault. Point remains, MCO doesn't do quite as good a job on the whole. They have further to go to improve than some other airports

Yes, but you make it sound so cut and dry and easy. "Atlanta and other airports have security down. Obviously MCO is doing it wrong".

My point is that's not at all a fair comparison. The problems MCO faces are much different than the problems ATL faces. Just because one is solved, doesn't mean there is a good solution to the other.

Apples and Oranges. The problems they each have are VERY different even though they manifest in the same symptom.

Also I doubt that other airports have it down as much as you say. I was just in a meeting the other day where someone mentioned that their security wait in Detroit was over 2 hours!

 

[OrangeCountyCommuter]

Actually, it's my understanding the issues at Atlanta are currently due to an upgrade on one of the check points. They closed one 2, 3 weeks ago to replace all the equipment. I forget now how long it was supposed to be down, may have opened up again already for all I know.

But before they closed it their waits were really reasonable all things considered. Even when we found they had long lines they managed it better than MCO. So the issues at MCO are not purely volume, it's how they manage the traffic flow. Just watch a few minutes sometime and you'll see

And also, Delta in ATL is in it's own terminal. They aren't going to give equipment to the other terminal. That's the one we have always used and found it moved very smoothly

1. Delta is not in it's own "terminal" Access point is one giant spot of all airlines (that includes the South access where the new equipment is going in)
2. The Mayor has been threatening to fire the TSA long before the current construction. They have NOT been managing the line well for quite a while. We waited an hour weeks before the "improvements" started.

The only thing they do better here in Atlanta is that it's ONE huge line (aka out to baggage claim LOL!) But since the Thousands decided "everyone will pay for precheck" and then quit staffing even though they didn't have that many folks signed up for precheck the lines have been horrid here!


Do not assume Atlanta will be nice and easy. Plan on an hour!


Folks MCO has some unique problems but if you have to fly out of an airport staffed by the Thousands Standing Around just assume it's like MCO this summer. Understaffed and poorly managed LOL!