rental concerns

[DonMacGregor]

Given that the link is sending people to confirmed reservations, which we don’t allow, the post have been temporarily deleted,

But in general, as long as one links to a site regarding content that isn’t banned, then what other information that site has is not micromanaged by this site,

We don’t allow posts that share specific rentals or contracts for sale, which is why I asked you talk in general terms. Screenshots do need to be linked but if they contain information not allowed, then those should not be shared, even with the link.

Ok, neither the screen shot nor the link could send anyone anywhere. It was a post made in the DVC Facebook page, by a member who had grabbed it from yet another (I assume) rental page, which was/is not listed or identified anywhere in the DVC Fan post. The poster who included the screen shot initially makes zero mention of where they grabbed it. Also, reasonably sure the DVC Fan Facebook page doesn't allow links either, so the Facebook page post is really a dead-end.

 

[wdw4rfam]

It’s one of those tough things that’s just going to keep getting worse. The renting thing has caught on and it isn’t going anywhere. It used to be easy to book 5-6 months out as long as you weren’t trying to get December. This year we decided to go in September and couldn’t get anything at 7 months out. It stinks because when we really want a certain room now that isn’t our home resort we just rent so we can get the 11 month advantage. But usually we just book home resort because we love it.

 

[wdw4rfam]

I will add that what drives me the most crazy is the renters that book up all the Tuesday/Thursday nights in an entire month just to hold the weekYou can clearly tell that’s what’s going on when the whole month is open except the same nights all month.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

It’s one of those tough things that’s just going to keep getting worse. The renting thing has caught on and it isn’t going anywhere. It used to be easy to book 5-6 months out as long as you weren’t trying to get December. This year we decided to go in September and couldn’t get anything at 7 months out. It stinks because when we really want a certain room now that isn’t our home resort we just rent so we can get the 11 month advantage. But usually we just book home resort because we love it.

I wish I knew when this easy to book 5-6 months out was a thing to be able to reserve anything you wanted? I'm getting close to 20 years of membership and it's still the same places that have consistent availability at 7 months or less although I'd say that studios have tightened up and the low point slow times are more in demand. That's probably more a product of higher DVC prices and the lower minimums they had for many years where they'd sell new memberships of 50 points.

What gets lost in the consideration when pointing to rentals are a couple of things - 1) WDW has added a lot of festival days and changed their ticket pricing to try and shift demand to more evenly spread around the year. I think it's had an affect. And 2) DVC has done point reallocations as is part of their responsibility to try and shift demand. I think it's also had an affect.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

I will add that what drives me the most crazy is the renters that book up all the Tuesday/Thursday nights in an entire month just to hold the weekYou can clearly tell that’s what’s going on when the whole month is open except the same nights all month.

Extra long weekends are the likely reason. When it costs a lot more to get somewhere you stay a little longer than you used to if you can.

 

[chcknctlt]

With availability getting more and more scarce for those that book five or six months out, I'm beginning to get worried about some individuals that are consistently and repeatedly 'abusing' the rental system to make a large volume of profit off their DVC membership.

Now, have NO problems with people renting points to friends or family, or even someone placing a property for rent when they decide they can't "make their stay" three months before their trip.

But when people try to score a huge profit off a reservation they book that they have no intention of using themselves, then I have a concern and issue. IE -- "I just booked a 7 night stay at BLT theme park view 11 months from now. Please give me $30 a point!" Some people GET those reservations rented, and it simply reduces inventory for those of us looking for something closer to when we can actually book airfare and such. And the fact is, some of these people do this every year with every point they have in an effort to make a profit. They never had an intention of using their DVC membership to stay at Disney themselves.... or they bought hundreds (or thousands) of points simply to game the system for profit purposes. And the DVC rental sites obviously have no problems with this.

I'm not sure what Disney can do about it, but it really isn't fair to those that can't book at exactly 11 months every year out. Sigh. And yes, I DO consider the DIS "platinum rental plan" to encourage such just abuse.

Yeeeeeep....and the amount of rental companies that have encouraged this process to get to this level are just as awful IMO.

 

[Jwaire]

The first thing I was told by a resale broker was 1) buy where you want to stay and 2) DVC is not for you, if you can't book 11 months out.

There seems to be a lot of bitter owners who purchased Tier 2 resorts at bargain prices specifically to book Tier 1 resorts and are now upset because availability at 7 months is not as good as it "used to be."

So who do they blame? Renters. Maybe you should be upset with Disney for allowing AUL to be used at WDW or for RIV (and soon Poly Tower and FW Cabins) for having restrictions?

Most renters are just normal members who are trying to break even on a cancelled trip. It's not some get rich quick scheme. Give them a break.

 

[FrannyFrogs]

Ok, neither the screen shot nor the link could send anyone anywhere. It was a post made in the DVC Facebook page, by a member who had grabbed it from yet another (I assume) rental page, which was/is not listed or identified anywhere in the DVC Fan post. The poster who included the screen shot initially makes zero mention of where they grabbed it. Also, reasonably sure the DVC Fan Facebook page doesn't allow links either, so the Facebook page post is really a dead-end.

What was so interesting in the screen shot? I'm all curious now! Perhaps you could tell us in a non-specific manner?

 

[DonMacGregor]

What was so interesting in the screen shot? I'm all curious now! Perhaps you could tell us in a non-specific manner?

In broad terms, it was an individual who had listed a total of 35 separate confirmed reservations, for a combined total of 54 nights, across I believe 3 or 4 resorts, and all between mid-October and Christmas.

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

In broad terms, it was an individual who had listed a total of 35 separate confirmed reservations, for a combined total of 54 nights, across I believe 3 or 4 resorts, and all between mid-October and Christmas.

That sounds like they're picking up the remnants of availability since that's not even 2 nights total for all the reservations. I guess it's a method but wow. In a way it's kind of helpful. Most people that complain about no availability are looking for longer bookings. That owner is using points on stranded nights, or so it sounds like.

 

[DonMacGregor]

That sounds like they're picking up the remnants of availability since that's not even 2 nights total for all the reservations. I guess it's a method but wow. In a way it's kind of helpful. Most people that complain about no availability are looking for longer bookings. That owner is using points on stranded nights, or so it sounds like.

Except many include weekends (10), Halloween, Thanksgiving, and at least one spans right through Christmas (12/23-12/26).

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

Except many include weekends (10), Halloween, Thanksgiving, and at least one spans right through Christmas (12/23-12/26).

Oddly those nights, other than Thanksgiving, are quite easy to book at 7 months and even much further in. Many big holidays are not as popular as is thought. I bet you could find Christmas availability right now. Or you definitely could have 2-4 weeks ago at least. I haven't looked since then to see about possibly changing my resort.
Still seems like a very time consuming way to rent that doesn't affect members looking for long stretches of times.

 

[DonMacGregor]

Oddly those nights, other than Thanksgiving, are quite easy to book at 7 months and even much further in. Many big holidays are not as popular as is thought. I bet you could find Christmas availability right now. Or you definitely could have 2-4 weeks ago at least. I haven't looked since then to see about possibly changing my resort.

The point is that there are, in fact, people that, regardless of when the reservations fall, or however easy they might be to get, are renting out far more times than the unofficial 20 that is bandied about, and it's not due to some ridiculous "need" to get rid of distressed points or because someone made a handful of speculative reservations for personal use that they now need to rent out.

I really don't care to be honest, but the whole "there's no evidence that people are actively renting for commercial purposes" song and dance gets a bit old after reading it for the one hundredth time.

That sounds like they're picking up the remnants of availability since that's not even 2 nights total for all the reservations.

Someone coming in and scooping up a bunch of orphaned days is practically absolute proof that commercial renting by individuals on some scale does in fact exist.

 

[Annabell]

A member has the right to book the rooms, It doesn´t matter if the room is used by the member or by a renter. The inventory itself will not change. So why blame those members that rent out the rooms ? It doesn´t make sense,

 

[KAT4DISNEY]

The point is that there are, in fact, people that, regardless of when the reservations fall, or however easy they might be to get, are renting out far more times than the unofficial 20 that is bandied about, and it's not due to some ridiculous "need" to get rid of distressed points or because someone made a handful of speculative reservations for personal use that they now need to rent out.

I really don't care to be honest, but the whole "there's no evidence that people are actively renting for commercial purposes" song and dance gets a bit old after reading it for the one hundredth time.


Someone coming in and scooping up a bunch of orphaned days is practically absolute prof that commercial renting by individuals on some scale does in fact exist.

Ok, that's fine but all completely opposite of my thought on it. That sounds like it may be the only way to rent distressed points that need to be used since long stretches of availability are not going to be available.

FWIW 20 points was only the trigger that would likely get your account looked at and never a finite rental amount but you've never heard me express otherwise that commercial renting doesn't occur. I probably have a broader definition of commercial renting though as some who go as deep as to suggest renting for anything over cost is commercial. That I say was not the intention of the POS definition.

Also checking to see if my suppositions hold up - all of those holidays have quite a bit of availability except Thanksgiving. Even that has a couple openings though. So is that the issue we're talking about? Rentals in the next 2-3 months when there is lots of availability?

However when I find a lack of availability I look only at myself for not booking far enough in advance. I bought a flexible timeshare for a reason and there are potential pitfalls with that. One is that it was never designed to support late bookers to get whatever they want. Love it or hate it but it is what it is and the POS outlines what you are buying.

 

[FrannyFrogs]

I'd be nervous renting points out all the time. Isn't the owner liable if the renters damage the room?

Lucky for me it's not a concern! I need every single point in my membership to support my WDW addiction!

 

[DonMacGregor]

Ok, that's fine but all completely opposite of my thought on it. That sounds like it may be the only way to rent distressed points that need to be used since long stretches of availability are not going to be available.

FWIW 20 points was only the trigger that would likely get your account looked at and never a finite rental amount but you've never heard me express otherwise that commercial renting doesn't occur. I probably have a broader definition of commercial renting though as some who go as deep as to suggest renting for anything over cost is commercial. That I say was not the intention of the POS definition.

Also checking to see if my suppositions hold up - all of those holidays have quite a bit of availability except Thanksgiving. Even that has a couple openings though. So is that the issue we're talking about? Rentals in the next 2-3 months when there is lots of availability?

However when I find a lack of availability I look only at myself for not booking far enough in advance. I bought a flexible timeshare for a reason and there are potential pitfalls with that. One is that it was never designed to support late bookers to get whatever they want.

I don't understand your obsession with when the reservations occur. It doesn't matter. Current availability doesn't matter. I never said I felt that the commercial renters are cheating anyone out of a reservation, and I don't have a problem with "first come, first served". You said "That sounds like they're picking up the remnants of availability since that's not even 2 nights total for all the reservations", and I simply pointed out that it doesn't look someone picking up table scraps. Obviously, if I'm trying to maximize profit, I'm going to grab the most lucrative dates possible within whatever limitations I might have. But again, that's not the point.

Once again, (and I really don't care either way), the point that I was making was that there ARE people who advertise numerous confirmed reservations in quantities that scream commercial renting. Whether or not they are made during high or low periods, whether or not someone is complaining that they think they got shut out on a reservation due to commercial renters (something I have never lamented), doesn't matter to me.

The point remains (and it's the only point I've made)that there is at least some presence of commercial renting going on. I don't care if there is or isn't, but people are practically swearing on their first-born that it doesn't exist. If you think that renting out some distressed points is a reasonable explanation for making 35 discrete confirmed reservations, then so be it.

In summary, and this is the only point I am making: there are people out there making dozens of confirmed reservations, most logically as a commercial venture, and that is in apparent violation of the TOS.

 

[Wedgeout]

Keep in mind too, since you have the same basic odds to book a hard to get reservation, you could be the one that locked out that renter. Having the booking priority gives you that opportunity to book, click quick day of or walking it. But yes, competing with those in the business or leisure to just rent, is frustrating.

 

[Sandisw]

Just to give context for others, it is 20 or more reservations in the name of others per membership in a rolling 12 month period.

If someone advertising rentals is doing so across many memberships, it’s probably not going to trigger the review at this point, based on DVDs definition of what is and is not allowed under the “commercial renting” clause.

 

[crisi]

A member has the right to book the rooms, It doesn´t matter if the room is used by the member or by a renter. The inventory itself will not change. So why blame those members that rent out the rooms ? It doesn´t make sense,

I think a lot of people buy DVC thinking that everyone will follow booking patterns similar to what they themselves envision - trying out a lot of different resorts at seven months. The truth is that people who have bought BCV or BWV resale in the past ten years are going to mostly book home at eleven months and not change. And that holds true for a lot of resorts - home resort owners who paid a premium for their points didn't do so because they really want to book Savannah view at Kidani which is pretty easy to get year round at seven months. Plus a lot of the resorts people really want to try are fairly small resorts - which just throws off the balance even if there were an equal proportion of VGF owners wanting to stay at SSR as SSR owners who want to stay at VGF.

Point inflation doesn't help either - as a BWV owner, I don't have enough points to stay at RIV (well, I do because we have too many points for our travel patterns, but I'm weird). For the owners who bought the original resorts, trading out to somewhere else is expensive - whereas for people who bought the resorts on sale with high per night point costs - getting into those low point cost rooms is a bargain - further creating balance issues.

But renting does make that worse - because the economics of renting a resort are to make the reservation at eleven months for a resort at which you can get a premium rental price and look for that delta between the points and the price you can get. So owners are primarily using their points for rental are even less likely to switch at seven months than owners who use their points primarily for themselves and their personal guests. And those early resorts make for attractive "for rent" purchases because that delta is higher there. (Its probably the reason 2042 resorts are holding their prices as well as they are - they still make sense to purchase if what you are going to do is rent them out).

Personally, I'd like DVC to clamp down on rentals - I don't think it will make a huge difference in room availability - especially at five months - but I think it will make some. And more importantly, I think for the majority of members, being able to do occasional "I can't use my points this year" rentals is a nice feature that should be kept, but most of us aren't in the business of renting points - and even if it doesn't make a huge difference in availability, if they can come up with a way to continue to allow people to rent casually and stop the "commercial" rentals, member satisfaction would increase.

I also think that members staying on their own points should get things like priority on getting room requests met and early checkin - whereas people who are not members (and yes, that means our kids using our points as well), get whatever is left whenever it becomes available. Membership should have benefits in usage of the thing we actually bought - not just a few discounts and a member lounge.