Safari Steve: a couple of ?s (if you have the time)

[LAinSEA]

Safari Steve:

Congrats on surviving Grad Night! Having participated in one 20 years ago at Disneyland and having some really great memories - thanks to you and your fellow CMs from the generations of graduating seniors!

I also work for a large media conglomerate (Newscorp) and have nothing to do with researching or writing news stories or editorial content for where I work (and I'm cautioned about putting out any official/unofficial word when one of sports anchors gets fired etc.) However...

what is up with the cancellantion of E-Nights in May?

I know you read the boards - and I for one am always very interested in your point of view and great information...please shed some insight into this topic.

OK - I know I'm just whining...my DH and I will be staying at AKL May 5 - May 12 and to have both e-nights cancelled was quite a letdown. We'll still have a great vacation but even though MK hours have expanded an hour Monday-Thursday - Fireworks were cancelled for Friday and an hour taken off the schedule. So MK on Saturday night will be a zoo! This can't be any fun for MK CM's either. There is something incredibly magic about MK at night...I wish they'd move the hours from 9am-7pm to 12pm-10pm!

We will miss EE - now we'll miss E-nights - what is left for on-site guests...having spent a great deal of time convincing my extended family, friends and coworkers to plan WDW vacations - with all the great deals for staying on-site there are even better deals dollarwise for staying off-site. Cancelling E-nights doesn't make sense from a business standpoint if you want guests to spend their money on-site, right?

thanks again for all your great posts...we were hoping for a Star Wars weekend for our time in May too...but maybe next year...

-LA

 

[Galahad]

What were the typical hours of an E-night? Also, wasn't an E-night something you purchase and not something that comes with an on-site stay (I could be wrong....we've never done an E-night...)? In either case, both EE and E-nights were added as incentives, not entitlements. They are Reopening the French Quarter moderate soon. They are apparently not having an on-site bookings problem. Isn't it kind of like the DVC perk of park passes that expired in 2000? Free passes were offered as incentives, with the caveat that member perks could be changed at any time.

 

[raidermatt]

I know, my name isn't Steve...

I'm sure you've read the official reason, that demand in May is expected to be insufficient, so I won't get into that.

Cancelling E-nights doesn't make sense from a business standpoint if you want guests to spend their money on-site, right?

Well.....

Enights did cost $12, so it follows that Disney could make a pretty big chunk of change if enough people attend. But if turnout is low, they probably lose money on the deal. (The costs are largely fixed).

Also, Enight guests probably aren't spending much over their $12 admission price. It would be safe to assume that a guest that leaves the park three hours earlier probably spends at least that much and probably more elsewhere in the resort, and Disney gets to save the cost of keeping the park open.

From a guest point of view, it is my understanding that hours were extended on the nights that April enights were canceled, and that would have to be considered a good thing overall. (Would rather have the whole park open for an extra hour than to be asked to pay $12 for time that usually used to be included in the regular closing time. Its like changing the opening time to 10am, but for $12 you can have EE back at 8am and we'll call it Emornings).

I'm not saying you shouldn't like Enights, because that's an individual choice. I'm just trying to take a macro point of view, rather than focusing on what any individual (including myself) wants.

 

[LAinSEA]

raidermatt:

I've read the discussions about why e-nights have been cancelled and got a response myself from a CM at Disney Dining when I called and rearranged PSs based on the lack of E-nights...

but here's where I'm coming from:

I'm a ski instructor, and for nearly a decade a full-time ski instructor - my full-time job for the winter months with the expectation of making a living. The area I worked for year after year put all the marketing efforts towards and geared up for the 2 weeks surrounding the Christmas/New Year's holidays. This is actually more towards the beginning of the season but it is also the time of year when the "pineapple express" comes through and the snow levels rise and the conditions are not so great for a ski/snowboard holiday. Then based upon the lack of guest visits over the holiday period, the area would then start taking away from published hours of operation and services to try and save money instead of advertising that conditions are now great and guests should come up and ski!

Ski instructors are only paid when they are actually teaching so this definitely affected our ability to make a living - we also had a great amount of time when teaching (riding the ski lifts) to ask what the guests wanted and heard more than our share of the complaints about the cuts in hours and services. After all - guests weren't paying a discounted price for their lift tickets...and had to spend more time waiting in line for what little food service was being offered than skiing. It wasn't the only ski area within an hour-2 hours drive from the city either so guests had a choise of where they skied. Area management never would listen to what the ski instructors had to say about the levels of services and hours and its effect on our guests and lesson sales...so I'm back to working in television full-time and teaching 10 days a ski season.

Now WDW isn't Crystal Mountain Resort - but I think the same principal applies...I would venture a guess that WDW makes more money off on-site guests than those staying off-site. Taking away perks offerred only to on-site guests does nothing to keep them from booking off-site. WDW markets to a wide variety of guests - including honeymooners and couples without children - as well as families. EE was a great perk for on-site guests who were willing to get up early, beat the crowd and enjoy attractions before the day got to be so hot. E-Night (never having experienced it myself) seemed like a great way for on-site guests to experience the thrill rides to their heart's content again without major crowds. These things added value for all on-site guests if they chose to take advantage of it - being an adult and not really into collecting autographs and photographs of characters, the Character Caravan just doesn't add value for me...maybe it's different for families with young children.

I guess I wanted a CM's perspective on the cancellation of E-nights and operating hours because it affects their bottom line, their livelihood and the enjoyment of their job. I think it takes a special type of person to work at WDW or DL because even the adult guests have the expectation of a "magical" vacation.

that said - my DH and I will do our best to enjoy our vacation...without EE and E-Nights - but I'm hoping that MK hours increase and E-Nights come back (even if it means rearranging the dinner plans again).

-LA

 

[HorizonsFan]

Isn't it kind of like the DVC perk of park passes that expired in 2000? Free passes were offered as incentives, with the caveat that member perks could be changed at any time.

Perhaps I'm picking nits (wouldn't be the first time...) but Disney never offered free passes to DVC members. The passes were paid for by the developer who built the original buildings at Old Key West (then called the Disney Vacation Club) and were only available to those who bought in before a certain date. The passes were part of the contract and couldn't be withdrawn before 2000. You are correct that member perqs offered by Disney can be withdrawn at any time.
I have to believe that if attendance warrants, ENights will be back. It's extra revenue (as long as enough people buy tickets).

 

[Galahad]

HorizonFan,

The nits you pick are correct of course. My feeble attempt at a point (I shouldn't have posted yesterday, I'm travelling and had very little sleep) was that folks were buying DVC without the perq and felt there were getting value without the passes. Today, people stay on-site and feel they are getting value. If a particular perq is imortant to enough people and they make it clear that they have/will change their buying behaviour because of it, WDW will probably respond. When DVC finally tries to take away pool hopping they will likely face a level of disatisfaction and complaint proportionally larger that the number of complaints they get about EE/E-nights. Thier response to that will be einlightening.

 

[d-r]

I've been thinking about how much it might cost to Disney for the three hours of e-night.

First, there are only a few eating locations open (Pecos Bill's for the first couple of hours, and the launching pad). I have been to several e-nights and they do a lot of business selling cokes and snacks, and I think that these two locations have to at least be pretty much "a wash" in terms of profit and cost to operate. It seems like they would at least break even.

Second, there are fewer attractions open, and the ones that are open work with a pretty minimum staffing - for example, there are no CM's to work the fast pass lines and so on. Let's see, there are buzz, alien, star jets, space mountain, splash mountain, haunted mansion, thunder mountain, and country bears. What about 50 cast members to operate the rides? For three hours at an average of $15 an hour (I'm thinking $10/hour + fringe), that would be $2250.

There are also some other cast members made necessary - not just the people working the gates and stuff for the extra three hours, but also the time of the people who sell the tickets and hand old the bracelets and stuff like that. Probabably double the figure so now our total is about $5K. There may also be some added cost to pushing back the over-night clean up for three hours (Fantasyland is closed and so clean up is started there first). I don't know how to think about that, or if it makes a difference (the over-night cast members were going to be there anyway).

Now, the transportation runs an extra three hours. I am not sure how many bus lines. If there were 12 lines with two buses each, that would be 24 drivers, plus support people. Plus the resort monorail is still open for the three hours. Plus there is gas and wear and tear. Would another $5k cover it?

If you accept that - and I'm not sure I would - then e-night should cost about $10K. Let's add another 50% and say it costs $15 K. Then, at $12 a pop, they would have to sell about 1,250 adult tickets to break even.

I have to think that e-night generally makes a lot of money. If they can't get the attendance up enough to have it twice a week, why not make it one night a week? It seems then you would get higher attendance (certainly not double, but a bit higher) for the one night.

I also understand the argument that all of the people there for e-night would be on property anyway, and spending money somewhere else on property instead of at e-night, but I think there is a counter argument to that. For instance, we had PS for 4 people at Tony's town square for Friday night at 7, because there was an e-night starting at 9 and we figured that we had time to take out for a decent sit-down meal. Now that they've canceled the e-night for that night, we've canceled the PS because we don't want to loose the time that night. Another example, I can think of a couple of e-nights where we felt we had the extra time to catch the boat over to Artist Point and then come back for the e-night. I guess with the park closing at 6 or 7 we are free to do that after park closing, but we'll be more likely to jump on the monorail with everyone else at park closing and go see illuminations. Once the magic kingdom closes, the idea at eating at one of the MK resorts becomes less attractive for people staying at other locations on property due to the transportation. The point is, I think that argument goes both ways.

Anyway, maybe someone with a Michigan education can come on and correct my numbers a bit, I know that they are wags and are way off.

DR

 

[roymccoy]

You said that you went to DL for grad night 20 years ago. I was at DL Grad Night in 1983. I don't want to date myself, but I believe the "Dazz Band" ..."whipped it baby, whipped it right...whipped it baby, whipped it all night" over at the Tomorrowland stage! It was fun and kind of sad because the bus ride home was the last time I saw a lot of my school friends that I had known for years. Brings back memories...

Roy

 

[Another Voice]

A possible explanation of the E-Nights situation.

Most people look at Walt Disney World and see nothing but one giant seamless operation. And that’s exactly what Disney wants you to see. But behind the scenes, it’s a large and complex corporation filled with all the problems and entanglements that go along with any bureaucracy.

Divisions, departments, profit centers, special legal entities – a whole zoo of corporate creatures exist at WDW. Each has its own management and each manager has his/her own bonus and performance goals. The simplest way to keep track of all this is through the profit and loss statement. A hotel or a restaurant is really nothing but a business whether it’s located on Main Street USA or on a Main Street in the suburbs of Chicago.

Now anyone running a business wants to make sure they collect as much money as possible. Simple business rule – make sure your customers pay. For most transactions at WDW it’s pretty simple. Take the cash or swipe the credit card. But it gets a little more complicated when you start dealing with related businesses.

Say (ah, simply for the sake of discussion, not that I actually know about all this stuff….) that I’m running a hotel at WDW and some big fat cat Disney corporate guy comes on a business trip. He wants a room. Since he works for Disney too I should probably just give it to him, right? But – I’m running a business. This guy is really just another guest that wants a room and besides, if I give it to him for free than that’s money off my bottom line. And ultimately it comes out of my bonus.

So what do I do? I charge the guy just like any other guest. It keeps my books clean and makes Corporate pick up the expense for sending their guy out to mess around with my business. Why should my hotel take a financial hit for some decision made in Burbank? Besides, he’d have to pay if he stayed off property.

To extend this thought, I decided that I want a few costumed characters to stop by one of hotel restaurants and drum up some business. Well, the parks are a business too. Those characters could be standing in Adventureland entertaining the guest who bought tickets. Why should they go to work in a hotel for “free” when they could be generating money in the Park? So the Parks charge the Hotels for “services” of the characters.

In fact just about everything at WDW works on these types of charges – everything from food service to electricity to use of the employee softball fields. It’s a standard way of doing business and it has some legitimate goals too. But the danger is that when you’re focused only on the bottom line it’s too easy to distinguish between the real money being spent by guests and the phony money being shuffled around through accounting tricks.

Now I don’t know if the following is what really happens; it’s just a thought about what might be going on.

Both Early Entry and E-Nights are really benefits for WDW Resorts guests. The Parks are businesses too and frankly don’t care if the guests coming through the turnstiles have a resort ID or if they’re refugees from the Shriner’s convention out in Ocala. But the Parks do care about being paid. Disney has a long history of hosting private parties for groups willing to pay. And that’s exactly what the resorts are – just another private party. So in all likelihood, Parks charges Resorts for opening the Magic Kingdom on E-Nights.

The Resorts see this as benefit for their guests. It’s a way to sell additional hotel rooms and some of the cost can be recovered by selling tickets (ever wonder why that whole “buy the ticket at the resort, go to the park, get a wristband” thing is so complicated?). But mostly it’s a loss leader to get people to stay on property. Just a cost of doing business along with nice swimming pools and towels.

Now the Resorts have been in a slump for two years and The King of Plush is screaming for more and more and more and more and more and more and more cash to be cranked out. They look over their budget and see this line item for E-Nights and Early Entry fees paid to Parks. It’s hard to quantify how many extra room nights you’re selling because of it – but it’s real easy to see how much it’s costing. All that money generated by the tickets, food and merchandise goes the Parks profit – not to the Resorts. And guess what happens to any expense line that doesn’t generate clear revenue? It gets cut in the hope that all those people who used to be dropping cash into the Parks will now be dropping cash into the Resort’s restaurants. The first job of a division manager is to that division’s bottom line.

From the Park’s point of view, a guest is a guest. If it’s cost effective to open early or stay open later to squeeze more money out of the Shriners, than so be it. If it’s not then who cares what the resort guest do? They’ve already bought the theme park tickets.

Like I said, I don’t know for a fact that this is the case. It’s just a plausible explanation.

 

[LAinSEA]

and honestly I can't remember if there was entertainment other than DL's cover bands at tomorrowland and videopolis. (my 20 year reunion is this summer). It was a great time though - we flew down from Seattle to attend! took 3 full years of fundraising.

My sister and I did a couple of weekend trips in college to So. Cal. as well - not really the "spring break" thing - just a weekend of DL, Knott's & Magic Mountain to escape reality before returning to 18 credits and full-time jobs.

I think those trips are what drives my feeling about MK at night - and why its so special.

d-r: I don't think your calculations are too far off - but then I'm not a math major - but I get "Izzo" "Mornhinweg" "Carlisle" spelled correctly and don't mix up "Yzerman" "Fedorov" or "Hasek" on a nightly basis on DSR.

Whether or not EE or E-Night produces revenue for WDW - it was a perk that many guests used as a deciding factor to stay on-site or off-site (regardless of if they took advantage of the perk). If WDW had done their research regarding these perks with a significant number of on-site guests asking "if these things went away would it change your decision to stay on-site?" Instead of asking "Do you want to see and interact with more characters in a more intimate setting?" (and I'm not pretending to know what was on the marketing survey but have ventured a guess)...what do you think the answers would be?

Some people like to be a part of a huge crowd - not anything wrong with that - but I would venture a guess that more people like to part of crowd that is manageable. During our stay, MK will only have fireworks and spectro on one night - Saturday. That is the only reason we will be at MK on Saturday like many other guests. We don't plan on being at MK all day to grab a piece of curb for our chance to watch spectro - we plan on doing the Flowers Brunch at EPCOT, having a nice relaxing dinner at Citricos and then going over to MK to stake out our piece of curb. Hopefully May 11 will not be like people have posted during spring break when they closed the parks due to the parks being at capacity. But WDW is setting up a situation where their guests - both on-site and off-site - may be disappointed. If I'd had dinner PS for California Grill on the Friday (before they'd cancelled fireworks) I'd be downright angry.

If giving up E-night means that WDW will really expand park hours significantly then I'm more understanding about losing the E-night, but so far the expansion has only been 4 hours Monday-Thursday and minus one hour on Friday - so a net of 3 regular park hours. And that is not in my mind an equal substitute for E-night.

-LA

 

[kenjean]

This makes the most sense of any explanation I've seen so far. If what AV says is true, all the segretion and conflicting goals of the many divisions will be Disney's downfall. It is up to the guy in charge to make sure all aspects of the company, much as the timing belt on an engine, are working in unison and aimed towards common goals.

Somebody in Pressler's position really needs to have an understanding of this so that each department, in trying to reach its goals set by management, doesn't work against other departments or against the company as a whole. Sounds like, and I hope I'm wrong, Disney is speeding full steam in the wrong direction. The parks need to remember that it all starts with the first goal of exceeding the guests expectations, and naturally making profit.

 

[raidermatt]

AV- I hadn't thought of that, and actually am a little ashamed that I didn't. At one point I worked for a very large corporation and saw much of what you described. "Soft" dollars vs. "Hard" dollars. Like you said, there are resons for keeping tabs on the soft dollars, and resons for making departments responsible for costs incurred by other departments.

But, there are pitfalls to the process, and certainly I experienced some of them, and I'm sure Disney does too.

Since this is only a theory, its hard to really bash Disney over the decision, because it may not even be true. It could also be that the scenario you describe is true, except that the Resorts did their homework and truly feel that for May at least, they aren't getting bang for their buck. (June Enights have not yet been canceled).

However, there would need to be at least SOME coordination. I know if I ran the parks, and Enights were a big money-maker for me, I would want to know why the Resort guys canceled. I might even make the appeal up the ladder, politics not withstanding. Of course, since I don't think Enights were a BIG money maker for the parks, it may not be significant enough of an issue to push. And since it wasn't a big money-maker for me, its not really that bad of a decision, unless the resort guys are wrong about how many bookings they gain.

If what AV says is true, all the segretion and conflicting goals of the many divisions will be Disney's downfall.

I wouldn't go this far. As AV said, these things do happen in large corporations, and there is some justification for it. Its when it becomes rampant that it becomes a serious issue.

 

[raidermatt]

Grad Night at DL- We had Klymaxx (sp), Mister Mister, Papa Doo Run Run, and Miami Sound Machine... That was 1986.

 

[d-r]

In 1986 grad night in wdw we had Billy Idol and Sly Fox (let's go all the way), but I don't remember who else.

Thanks for the insight, AV, it gives me a way to thank about it.

LAinSEA...you mean you are going to miss the big meeting over at the contemporary just to stake out a spot for the parade? Maybe you will save us a spot?

DR

PS You know, I think we had miami sound machine, too, but I might be remembering something else....things like that sort of start to run together. I can remember sly fox in tomorrowland terrace pretty clearly though for some reason.

 

[LAinSEA]

A-V: I believe the term is "job cost accounting" - when one division bills the other division for the services first division provides or the resorts are the internal customer of the parks. We as guests are the "external customer" and I fear, like my "ski clients", don't exactly matter to the corporate monster as a whole.

Even if the week we'll be there in May was 1/52 the business for WDW's whole entire year (or May was 1/12 the business for year), dissapointing that fraction or less of their business/guests isn't very good for the bottom line. The gazillons of money spent on a world wide advertising budget doesn't make up for those us coming back to our everyday lives and answering the question "so how was your vacation?" "well, it wasn't exactly what I'd envisioned and frankly I'm dissapointed about it, no more EE, they cancelled E-nights, MK was completely mobbed our last night for the parade and fireworks....I don't know if I'd recommend you making plans to visit anytime soon - at least not until Disney gets its act together and remembers "it all started with a mouse."

D-R: I'll save you a place on the curb, promise.

-LA

 

[Safari Steve]

I'm sorry, but I'm not an official spokesperson for WDW. All I can say in regards to E-ride nights is that it is a program dictated by attendance projections which is subject to change and/or cancellation at any time and without warning. 9 times out of ten, if it's not offered, it won't be needed (and if crowds pick up enough to warrant, hours will be extended and e-nights can be added on select nights.)

 

[LAinSEA]

I appreciate you taking the time to reply...and best of luck on the rest of grad nights!

Still looking forward to the Magic in May,
LA