SAP+ ?

[tom1944]

I am between buying 160-200 points at BLT or a second contract at SSR. The way we plan to vacation I consider all our points SAP.

Our current plan is for a 9-day vacation in August (after Florida starts school). This year we are trying a 5/4 day split stay. My wife wants the BLT Lake View 1 bedroom for the first 5 days and then we will try a 2 bedroom wherever we can for the final 4 days.

We will not be buying more points until we see if this type of trip is what we want. We will use 182 points we have for 2024 and then borrow up to 180 of our 2025 points.

Since POLY2 will have a 1bedroom 2-bathroom option I think we hold off any purchase until those contracts are available so that we can consider buying there. Having the option of 3 different 1 bed/2bath resorts would be beneficial.

So, it's more SSR-cheapest or a BLT contract to cover 5 days in a 1 bedroom- affordable or POLY2 is the same association-a POLY resale or finally POLY2 is a new association, and we buy enough points for 4/5 days in a 1 bedroom there.

Lots of moving pieces but I enjoy it and as long as I don't bother my wife with all the options until I present her one to consider its all good.

In the meantime, I bother all of you and take all of your expertise and opinions under consideration.

 

[RoseGold]

The difference is the buy in cost. Sure, the math is fine if you think that is worthless, but I don't.

 

[tom1944]

The difference is the buy in cost. Sure, the math is fine if you think that is worthless, but I don't.

I agree with you. I just have to decide if I am willing to be frivolous with the excess funds' other options beyond SSR will require.

I am lucky we are in position to do it but there are always other frivolous options to spend on or boring ways to invest.

 

[DanCali]

The difference is the buy in cost. Sure, the math is fine if you think that is worthless, but I don't.

The difference between dues and buy-in cost is that the buy-in cost is "equity". There are presumably some reasons as to why BLT is more pricy per point vs SSR. Those may include contract length, lower dues, and location. So if one were to sell their ownership in 2034 or 2044, it'd also be reasonable to assume that they would also receive a premium for their BLT property vs. SSR, regardless of what the prevailing resale prices may be at the time. And if one were to sell their ownership in 2054, the SSR deed would be worthless but the BLT deed would still have some decent value having 6 extra years and ability to trade into PVB, AUL, CCV, VGF, VGC (and OKWe till 2057).

So yes, you spend more upfront, but if you recover it on the back end then you lose just on the time value of money, not that entire cost difference.

 

[MonaMN]

All of our SAP's are at CCV. For us it came down to the fact that it's our favorite resort so we'll always be happy if we get "stuck" there. Next we considered length of contract and point chart. I know point chart doesn't matter if you're going to swap out at 7 months, but as we spend a good majority of our time there, it does make it much more economical than BLT or VGF for example. Finally, our son is on our deed. We realize that he might not won't want or need the number of points we have once my husband and I are too decrepit to make the trek to WDW. As CCV is the unrestricted resort with the latest expiration date, we are guessing that resale value should hold up pretty well - at least in comparison with some other properties.

I came really close to buying some VGF2 points when they first went on sale with that great incentive strictly for SAP's, but in the end just picked up some more CCV resale (we already have 500 direct CCV points). VGF really isn't our style, and I don't want to have to worry moving somewhere at 7 months all the time.

This is largely why we bought CCV points (resale). We love Wilderness Lodge, the point chart is reasonable, and the contract is long. So far we've used our points at CCV and VGC, with a trip at AKL coming up in a couple months. So far, it has worked out splendidly.

We're curious about the Cabin at FW - might inspire us to buy some direct points, depending on the specifics...

 

[tom1944]

The difference between dues and buy-in cost is that the buy-in cost is "equity". There are presumably differences as to why BLT is more pricy per point vs SSR. Those may include contract length, lower dues, and location. So if one were to sell their ownership in 2034 or 2044, it'd also be reasonable to assume that they would also receive a premium for their BLT property vs. SSR, regardless of what the prevailing resale prices may be at the time. And if one were to sell their ownership in 2054, the SSR deed would be worthless but the BLT deed would still have some decent value having 6 extra years and ability to trade into PVB, AUL, CCV, VGF, VGC (and OKWe till 2057).

So yes, you spend more upfront, but if you recover it on the back end then you lose just on the time value of money, not that entire cost difference.

This is absolutely true.

It is one reason I think any of the options can work if you are in a solid financial situation.

 

[intamin]

The difference is the buy in cost. Sure, the math is fine if you think that is worthless, but I don't.

Definitely not worthless. Especially when you take into account opportunity cost.

However, home resort priority, extra years on the contract and resale value of being on the monorail loop should also be taken into account. It’s the reason why like you said VDH can make decent SAP despite a significantly higher buy in.

Some people absolutely despise SSR and still bought it anyways which I don’t really understand. I get wanting points as cheap as possible but when buying a 150 point contract and the difference is 4500 (30pp) between SSR and say BLT/CCV, is that difference worth it when taking into account the above (years, resale value, booking standard/TPV rooms when desired)? That’s more of a personal decision IMO.

 

[CarolynFH]

I am not sure if DVD does this but with timeshares it often happens that maintenance fees may be temporarily subsidized by the developer as a marketing tool while there is sales activity. After it's sold out, dues may rise disproportionately to catch up to where they should have been all along given the "normal" increases.

I know the thread has moved on from this, but FYI DVD tried this with Aulani. The State of Hawaii caught them and the DVC VP Jim Lewis and two other high ranking execs lost their jobs. Sales at Aulani were suspended for a bit to recalculate dues. That’s why some early Aulani contracts have subsidized dues.

Since then, as noted in posts above, DVD has done the opposite - new resorts start out with high dues and then sort of grow into them as time goes on and sellout approaches.

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program-men...ntinel-aulani-dues-error-lead-to-lewis-ouster

 

[intamin]

I know the thread has moved on from this, but FYI DVD tried this with Aulani. The State of Hawaii caught them and the DVC VP Jim Lewis and two other high ranking execs lost their jobs. Sales at Aulani were suspended for a bit to recalculate dues. That’s why some early Aulani contracts have subsidized dues.

Since then, as noted in posts above, DVD has done the opposite - new resorts start out with high dues and then sort of grow into them as time goes on and sellout approaches.

https://dvcnews.com/dvc-program-men...ntinel-aulani-dues-error-lead-to-lewis-ouster

I knew their goal was to incentivize Aulani with cheaper dues and that's why they were fired, I guess I just never realized that the plan was to drastically increase the dues later on after people had already bought in and flip the switch on them.

 

[CarolynFH]

I knew their goal was to incentivize Aulani with cheaper dues and that's why they were fired, I guess I just never realized that the plan was to drastically increase the dues later on after people had already bought in and flip the switch on them.

Yes, obviously at some point dues would have to increase to cover actual costs - I can’t see DVD planning to subsidize them forever. And clearly Lewis and the others would have known it. It was definitely not an accident or an error in calculations, and I imagine it was quite embarrassing for higher ups in the Disney company to have that pointed out by Hawaii.

 

[RoseGold]

Yes, obviously at some point dues would have to increase to cover actual costs - I can’t see DVD planning to subsidize them forever. And clearly Lewis and the others would have known it. It was definitely not an accident or an error in calculations, and I imagine it was quite embarrassing for higher ups in the Disney company to have that pointed out by Hawaii.

That's a very generous interpretation for Disney. I mean nobody went to prison, I guess? Yes, Disney will subsidize them forever IMO.

 

[CarolynFH]

That's a very generous interpretation for Disney. I mean nobody went to prison, I guess? Yes, Disney will subsidize them forever IMO.

No, no one went to prison, so Disney was lucky indeed! All they had to do was to pause Aulani sales while they recalculated dues. And of course Disney had to promise to subsidize dues for the contracts that had already been sold, for the lifetime of Aulani, which I don't think was their plan at all.

 

[Chili327]

Yes, obviously at some point dues would have to increase to cover actual costs - I can’t see DVD planning to subsidize them forever. And clearly Lewis and the others would have known it. It was definitely not an accident or an error in calculations, and I imagine it was quite embarrassing for higher ups in the Disney company to have that pointed out by Hawaii.

That's a very generous interpretation for Disney. I mean nobody went to prison, I guess? Yes, Disney will subsidize them forever IMO.

No, no one went to prison, so Disney was lucky indeed! All they had to do was to pause Aulani sales while they recalculated dues. And of course Disney had to promise to subsidize dues for the contracts that had already been sold, for the lifetime of Aulani, which I don't think was their plan at all.

So there is or isn't a chance subsidized dues can go away?

 

[CarolynFH]

So there is or isn't a chance subsidized dues can go away?

Subsidized dues at Aulani and at VB can not go away. They’re baked into those contracts and remain with them when resold.

PS the subsidy at VB has nothing to do with any shenanigans. It’s because certain planned amenities and facilities were canceled due to poor sales.

Post in thread 'Vero Beach dues question'
https://www.disboards.com/threads/vero-beach-dues-question.3837342/post-62981082

 

[kboo]

Hmm, cheaper dues too. I wonder why i wasn't looking at BLT. its under $8 dues, 2060 exp.... Dang it, now i need to start over & add in BLT.

I started pulling quotes here to say exactly that! BLT! BLT! It's gonna be great after the refurb.

We already know SSR is the better value, and i don't want to see how much better that value is.

eh. I had conversations here in the old days with someone who bought SSR. I occasionally had FOMO but then I looked at what I paid for BLT and in retrospect I should have bought more. He had more FOMO and more frequently, but I think he did ok.

I think I always thought of BLT as SAP+ ... and I may have to let go of my inner points-miser and book lake view if necessary.

I can see it coming already, i'm going to own 50 points at AKV, BC/BW, WL, Poly, VGC & Aulani to cover every single "area" of interest.

we "only" have 3 home resorts, we have accumulated a decent # of points at each. The drawback to having smaller contracts is that you don't have many nights. The benefit to having "extra" points is that if you can't book all you want at 7 months (or 11 months, for that matter), you *can* book the nights you need, or hold a backup reservation that you can modify or delete later, without having to borrow.

That may be the biggest factor in what's wrong with my calculations, is if its SAP you can't beat SSR, so me trying to incorporate the "where i want to stay" into SAP comparison isn't going to work, they just aren't going to compare.

When we were deciding between SSR and BLT for our first contract, they were only about $6-10pp difference, so BLT was a no-brainer for us so long as we didn't intend to stay in studios.

Riviera also has a big Standard View vs. Preferred View points gap (IMO too big for the view differences), and SV is often gone by 7 months, making it worthwhile to own from a value perspective. Heck, SV Deluxe Studios and Tower Studios don't even last a day at certain times of year.

They really made Riviera SV something special. Not only is the gap big, the standard views are lovely so long as you ask for a high floor (but even watching fireworks from the 3rd floor is pretty awesome.

Considered VGF, but 200 points didn't go far enough there for it to fulfill the '+' part. And it was 10% more upfront for 6 fewer years, just about $0.90/pt more upfront.

This really had us hemming and hawing over the summer between adding on at RIV vs VGF because we own both. But ultimately we decided to add VGF because we love going over Xmas and staying at VGF - and for that, you do need home resort points. And a lot of them, because not only are you dealing with holiday bookings, you're dealing with January walkers too.

IMO, it really just depends on whether or not you think that home priority is worth it i.e. CCV/VGF during Christmas and BLT during July 4th and NYE.

I'll add, Riviera at NYE (and Christmas) too. But VGF at Christmas is still harder to get.

Overall, though, if you're thinking about resale SAP+, BLT is still a very good option for larger units in standard view. If you're considering direct, if you have neither RIV nor VGF, then RIV is the financially better choice because of the longer contract length and slightly better point chart. RIV is in fact our favorite DVC resort. But we are at VGF over Christmas for the foreseeable future.

Additional thought for SAP+: If you are ever thinking about taking a group where some people will be sleeping on the sofabeds or other alt-beds, then think seriously about newly refurbed resorts with the murphy beds. Those make a difference. We were at BWV this past summer for the location and cheap points (got one more night out of it) but the living room and kitchen were (ahem) a little smaller than we are used to with our home resorts. My kids were not on the sofa beds this time, and they did appreciate it.

We have now been DVC long enough that we make our reservations in the 7-11 mo window and then we look at 7 months to see if there's anything we want to switch to. About half the time we switch somewhere (BWV/BCV/AKV-K) we haven't stayed at CCV/BRV yet but it's on our "to try" list.

 

[intamin]

Overall, though, if you're thinking about resale SAP+, BLT is still a very good option for larger units in standard view. If you're considering direct, if you have neither RIV nor VGF, then RIV is the financially better choice because of the longer contract length and slightly better point chart. RIV is in fact our favorite DVC resort. But we are at VGF over Christmas for the foreseeable future.

The only issue I have with BLT is the difference in point per night is not that significant between standard and lake view and typically when I check at 7 months BLT lake view is pretty open. Off topic but it's funny that Paul Krieger always uses RIV as the frame of reference for expensive point charts but VGF has the most expensive point charts on property. I do like VGF during the holidays but ughhh those point charts lol

 

[tom1944]

The only issue I have with BLT is the difference in point per night is not that significant between standard and lake view and typically when I check at 7 months BLT lake view is pretty open. Off topic but it's funny that Paul Krieger always uses RIV as the frame of reference for expensive point charts but VGF has the most expensive point charts on property. I do like VGF during the holidays but ughhh those point charts lol

That is the issue I am having with BLT. If I cannot get the standard (or my wife only wants the Lake View) 1 bedroom at 11 months and I can get the Lake View 1 bedroom at 7 months, I am not sure I need this as a home resort.

 

[intamin]

That is the issue I am having with BLT. If I cannot get the standard (or my wife only wants the Lake View) 1 bedroom at 11 months and I can get the Lake View 1 bedroom at 7 months, I am not sure I need this as a home resort.

The real benefit is for booking during the most crowded of holidays like Christmas, NYE, July 4th where nothing beats walking back from MK after fireworks or just watching the fireworks from your room but for my trip in March I originally had booked an entire week in a standard studio at BLT and was happy with myself, and then I looked at how much lake view cost at BLT and I saved a whopping 14 points and I was like that's it? I was almost tempted to upgrade if the view is better. You compare this to other resorts like RIV for example where standard costs 155 for the same week and preferred costs 195. Seeing the minimal difference really decreased my desire to own at BLT.

In the end we kept an AKV club level and managed to sneak my way into a studio at BCV for 2 nights and then 2 nights at Boardwalk in a BW studio

 

[tom1944]

The real benefit is for booking during the most crowded of holidays like Christmas, NYE, July 4th where nothing beats walking back from MK after fireworks or just watching the fireworks from your room but for my trip in March I originally had booked an entire week in a standard studio at BLT and was happy with myself, and then I looked at how much lake view cost at BLT and I saved a whopping 14 points and I was like that's it? I was almost tempted to upgrade if the view is better. You compare this to other resorts like RIV for example where standard costs 155 for the same week and preferred costs 195. Seeing the minimal difference really decreased my desire to own at BLT.

In the end ended up keeping my AKV club level and managed to sneak my way into a studio at BCV for 2 nights and then 2 nights at Boardwalk in a BW studio

That is the other issue- for the foreseeable future our vacations will be in August after the Florida schools open so not one of the crowded holiday periods.

After we are done with our commitment to August trips we would travel in January after MLK Day. Those would not include many park days so staying by Disney Springs would be fine.

It is highly unlikely we will travel at Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter of New Years.

 

[kboo]

That is the other issue- for the foreseeable future our vacations will be in August after the Florida schools open so not one of the crowded holiday periods.

After we are done with our commitment to August trips we would travel in January after MLK Day. Those would not include many park days so staying by Disney Springs would be fine.

It is highly unlikely we will travel at Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter of New Years.

We bought to use in late August, and at the time BLT was a great bargain for an MK resort - resale prices were $30 or more lower than any other MK resort (except BRV but we didn’t want boat/bus only and a 2042 end date). Back then, we were in double strollers and BLT was the only resort you could walk back from, and MK was by far the best park for our little kids. Funny how quickly one’s priorities change - now we like being closer to EP and HS when back then we didn’t even go to HS. We might do 1 day each at EP and AK and spend the rest of our time at MK. Also the 3 full baths in a 2br was useful because we thought we would bring my parents and in-laws more.

(This last trip, we stayed the first part at BWV and we spent most of our time in EP and HS riding all the height restricted rides I used to look longingly at from the double stroller.)

But now, I see what you all are saying about BLT and the price differntial between SV and LV is not very high. So LV is a perfectly fine option (again, now, because we have a lot of points!)