Was I Being a Germaphobe?

If you really wanted to have a meaningful dialogue, you would've posted the link you're purportedly referring to a long time ago. You didn't originally (which is customary here when making a point, especially when going against the grain), and refused when politely asked to, so I can only conclude you are playing games with me, therefore I will no longer be responding to your posts, including your attempts at baiting me on this thread. :wave2:

Again, I'm not playing games. You asked and I told you exactly where to find the info. And as for baiting? I'm just calling it as I see it - I proved my point and you don't want to admit that you were wrong.
 
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If you really wanted to have a meaningful dialogue, you would've posted the link you're purportedly referring to a long time ago. You didn't originally (which is customary here when making a point, especially when going against the grain), and refused when politely asked to, so I can only conclude you are playing games with me, therefore I will no longer be responding to your posts, including your attempts at baiting me on this thread. :wave2:

It's not worth it. If she had any evidence to back it up, it would have been posted already.
 
Oh for the love of... HERE:

https://www.cdc.gov/ecoli/general/index.html

That's the "Q&A" page Denise is referring to.

Here's more:

From the Where do STEC infections come from and HOW ARE THEY SPREAD tabs:
STEC live in the guts of ruminant animals, including cattle, goats, sheep, deer, and elk. The major source for human illnesses is cattle. STEC that cause human illness generally do not make animals sick. Other kinds of animals, including pigs and birds, sometimes pick up STEC from the environment and may spread it.

How are these infections spread?
minus12-reverse.png

Infections start when you swallow STEC—in other words, when you get tiny (usually invisible) amounts of human or animal feces in your mouth. Unfortunately, this happens more often than we would like to think about. Exposures that result in illness include consumption of contaminated food, consumption of unpasteurized (raw) milk, consumption of water that has not been disinfected, contact with cattle, or contact with the feces of infected people. Some foods are considered to carry such a high risk of infection with E. coli O157 or another germ that health officials recommend that people avoid them completely. These foods include unpasteurized (raw) milk, unpasteurized apple cider, and soft cheeses made from raw milk. Sometimes the contact is pretty obvious (working with cows at a dairy or changing diapers, for example), but sometimes it is not (like eating an undercooked hamburger or a contaminated piece of lettuce). People have gotten infected by swallowing lake water while swimming, touching the environment in petting zoos and other animal exhibits, and by eating food prepared by people who did not wash their hands well after using the toilet. Almost everyone has some risk of infection.


and from the How can they be prevented tab:
  • WASH YOUR HANDS thoroughly after using the bathroom or changing diapers and before preparing or eating food. WASH YOUR HANDS after contact with animals or their environments (at farms, petting zoos, fairs, even your own backyard).
  • COOK meats thoroughly. Ground beef and meat that has been needle-tenderized should be cooked to a temperature of at least 160°F/70˚C. It’s best to use a thermometer, as color is not a very reliable indicator of “doneness.”
  • AVOID raw milk, unpasteurized dairy products, and unpasteurized juices (like fresh apple cider).
  • AVOID swallowing water when swimming or playing in lakes, ponds, streams, swimming pools, and backyard “kiddie” pools.
  • PREVENT cross contamination in food preparation areas by thoroughly washing hands, counters, cutting boards, and utensils after they touch raw meat. To learn more about how to protect yourself from E. coli, see CDC’s feature, E. coli Infection.



E.Coli doesn't live normally in the human intestinal tract, correct? So unless there was a child AT the Little League game already INFECTED WITH E.COLI who had used the bathroom and not washed their hands before reaching in for the chips, there was really no chance of contracting E.Coli (unless the sandwiches served were contaminated but that wouldn't be the communal bag of chips fault).

ONLY TALKING ABOUT E.COLI TRANSMISSION AND CONTAMINATION.
 
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Oh for the love of... HERE:

https://www.cdc.gov/ecoli/general/index.html

That's the "Q&A" page Denise is referring to.

Here's more:

From the Where do STEC infections come from and HOW ARE THEY SPREAD tabs:
STEC live in the guts of ruminant animals, including cattle, goats, sheep, deer, and elk. The major source for human illnesses is cattle. STEC that cause human illness generally do not make animals sick. Other kinds of animals, including pigs and birds, sometimes pick up STEC from the environment and may spread it.

How are these infections spread?
minus12-reverse.png

Infections start when you swallow STEC—in other words, when you get tiny (usually invisible) amounts of human or animal feces in your mouth. Unfortunately, this happens more often than we would like to think about. Exposures that result in illness include consumption of contaminated food, consumption of unpasteurized (raw) milk, consumption of water that has not been disinfected, contact with cattle, or contact with the feces of infected people. Some foods are considered to carry such a high risk of infection with E. coli O157 or another germ that health officials recommend that people avoid them completely. These foods include unpasteurized (raw) milk, unpasteurized apple cider, and soft cheeses made from raw milk. Sometimes the contact is pretty obvious (working with cows at a dairy or changing diapers, for example), but sometimes it is not (like eating an undercooked hamburger or a contaminated piece of lettuce). People have gotten infected by swallowing lake water while swimming, touching the environment in petting zoos and other animal exhibits, and by eating food prepared by people who did not wash their hands well after using the toilet. Almost everyone has some risk of infection.


and from the How can they be prevented tab:
  • WASH YOUR HANDS thoroughly after using the bathroom or changing diapers and before preparing or eating food. WASH YOUR HANDS after contact with animals or their environments (at farms, petting zoos, fairs, even your own backyard).
  • COOK meats thoroughly. Ground beef and meat that has been needle-tenderized should be cooked to a temperature of at least 160°F/70˚C. It’s best to use a thermometer, as color is not a very reliable indicator of “doneness.”
  • AVOID raw milk, unpasteurized dairy products, and unpasteurized juices (like fresh apple cider).
  • AVOID swallowing water when swimming or playing in lakes, ponds, streams, swimming pools, and backyard “kiddie” pools.
  • PREVENT cross contamination in food preparation areas by thoroughly washing hands, counters, cutting boards, and utensils after they touch raw meat. To learn more about how to protect yourself from E. coli, see CDC’s feature, E. coli Infection.
E.Coli doesn't live normally in the human intestinal tract, correct? So unless there was a child AT the Little League game already INFECTED WITH E.COLI who had used the bathroom and not washed their hands before reaching in for the chips, there was really no chance of contracting E.Coli (unless the sandwiches served were contaminated but that wouldn't be the communal bag of chips fault).

ONLY TALKING ABOUT E.COLI TRANSMISSION AND CONTAMINATION.
You don't think I've seen this already? :lmao: Not sure why you're doing a pp's work for her, but since it's here and no doubt there are others here who also want to know...

Yes, you are correct.

What I've tried to explain here repeatedly is that shiga-producing EColi like 0157:H7 is not found in an everyday environment nor commonly spread among people. It's an adulterant in food, i.e. "A substance which is added and is injurious for human consumption", which also makes it ILLEGAL, which is why it's such a big deal when it's present in food. (Health authority involvement, massive recalls, litigation, hospitalizations, news reports, illness and death, etc.)

So when they say (and this is what I wanted to have a discussion with a pp about) "Exposures that result in illness include consumption of contaminated food", they're talking about things like ground beef, vegetables washed in cattle runoff water, milk and cheese not pasteurized, etc., not a bag of chips after a baseball game - that is just not how this particular germ is spread, contrary to what was being argued. I can see where people might take that sentence a different way, but if you look at the BIG PICTURE, that's just not it. While human to human transmission of this germ is technically possible, the circumstances would have to be just right, as you've said; certainly it's not the most common way, as was argued here.
 
You don't think I've seen this already? :lmao: Not sure why you're doing a pp's work for her, but since it's here and no doubt there are others here who also want to know...

Yes, you are correct.

What I've tried to explain here repeatedly is that shiga-producing EColi like 0157:H7 is not found in an everyday environment nor commonly spread among people. It's an adulterant in food, i.e. "A substance which is added and is injurious for human consumption", which also makes it ILLEGAL, which is why it's such a big deal when it's present in food. (Health authority involvement, massive recalls, litigation, hospitalizations, news reports, illness and death, etc.)

So when they say (and this is what I wanted to have a discussion with a pp about) "Exposures that result in illness include consumption of contaminated food", they're talking about things like ground beef, vegetables washed in cattle runoff water, milk and cheese not pasteurized, etc., not a bag of chips after a baseball game - that is just not how this particular germ is spread, contrary to what was being argued. I can see where people might take that sentence a different way, but if you look at the BIG PICTURE, that's just not it. While human to human transmission of this germ is technically possible, the circumstances would have to be just right, as you've said; certainly it's not the most common way, as was argued here.

(I'm agreeing with you. Posted the link because the other poster wouldn't).
 
:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl: "I proved my point." LOL - ok. You refuse to back up your claims but alrighty then.

Actually I'm surprised it needed backing up. It's a well known fact. And I did back it up - I shared exactly where proof could be found.
 
[QUOTE="
unless there was a child AT the Little League game already INFECTED WITH E.COLI who had used the bathroom and not washed their hands before reaching in for the chips, there was really no chance of contracting E.Coli (unless the sandwiches served were contaminated but that wouldn't be the communal bag of chips fault).

[/QUOTE]

Yes, my point has always been this. Again, I don't understand why you think there is no chance of it happening when it's the very first thing addressed by the CDC about person to person transmission.
 
It's not worth it. If she had any evidence to back it up, it would have been posted already.

Maybe it's because I spent a good bit of time working in restaurants, but this is something I've known about for ever, it seems. I'm really surprised that you all here weren't aware, would call it a lie, and deem it improbable.
 
You don't think I've seen this already? :lmao: Not sure why you're doing a pp's work for her, but since it's here and no doubt there are others here who also want to know...

Yes, you are correct.

What I've tried to explain here repeatedly is that shiga-producing EColi like 0157:H7 is not found in an everyday environment nor commonly spread among people. It's an adulterant in food, i.e. "A substance which is added and is injurious for human consumption", which also makes it ILLEGAL, which is why it's such a big deal when it's present in food. (Health authority involvement, massive recalls, litigation, hospitalizations, news reports, illness and death, etc.)

So when they say (and this is what I wanted to have a discussion with a pp about) "Exposures that result in illness include consumption of contaminated food", they're talking about things like ground beef, vegetables washed in cattle runoff water, milk and cheese not pasteurized, etc., not a bag of chips after a baseball game - that is just not how this particular germ is spread, contrary to what was being argued. I can see where people might take that sentence a different way, but if you look at the BIG PICTURE, that's just not it. While human to human transmission of this germ is technically possible, the circumstances would have to be just right, as you've said; certainly it's not the most common way, as was argued here.


My point is, and has always been, that this is the most common way it is spread PERSON TO PERSON - fecal contamination from not washing your hands after using the bathroom. You want to keep going back to how a person would originally acquire the bacteria. In the scenario with the bag of chips this is irrelevant.
 
[QUOTE="
unless there was a child AT the Little League game already INFECTED WITH E.COLI who had used the bathroom and not washed their hands before reaching in for the chips, there was really no chance of contracting E.Coli (unless the sandwiches served were contaminated but that wouldn't be the communal bag of chips fault).

Yes, my point has always been this. Again, I don't understand why you think there is no chance of it happening when it's the very first thing addressed by the CDC about person to person transmission.

Most of us don't really think there is absolutely NO chance of it happening, we think that there is a miniscule chance of it happening, and that is the point that WE are trying to make. The OP asked if she was being a germaphobe, which most people would define as illogically overreacting to possible risk of infection in a given context. We all take risks every day of our lives and make split second decisions about which ones we are willing to accept. Frankly, the OP's driving her child to that Little League game and/or allowing him to play baseball were BOTH statistically far more likely to result in harm to him than eating those chips would have been, which means that in that particular setting at that time, she WAS probably being unnecessarily over-cautious about the chips.
 
E.Coli doesn't live normally in the human intestinal tract, correct? So unless there was a child AT the Little League game already INFECTED WITH E.COLI who had used the bathroom and not washed their hands before reaching in for the chips, there was really no chance of contracting E.Coli (unless the sandwiches served were contaminated but that wouldn't be the communal bag of chips fault).

ONLY TALKING ABOUT E.COLI TRANSMISSION AND CONTAMINATION.

This is exactly what we've all been trying to say. A sick person would have had to be there and touch the chips. From what I know of e coli, someone infected with it is not going to be well enough to hang out at a Little League game.
 
My point is, and has always been, that this is the most common way it is spread PERSON TO PERSON - fecal contamination from not washing your hands after using the bathroom. You want to keep going back to how a person would originally acquire the bacteria. In the scenario with the bag of chips this is irrelevant.

Then honestly, why didn't you just clarify your first post about the most common way it's acquired (because it isn't person to person, but you didn't specify that at the time) and post the link that supports your intended meaning? Maybe you just enjoy the debate? Anyway, I'm out.
 
Then honestly, why didn't you just clarify your first post about the most common way it's acquired (because it isn't person to person, but you didn't specify that at the time) and post the link that supports your intended meaning? Maybe you just enjoy the debate? Anyway, I'm out.

As this was what was pertinent to the OP's question, I didn't think it necessary in my first post mentioning E coli. I've been very clear in all others due to the confusion. Obviously when talking about a bunch of dirty hands in a bag of chips one wouldn't think of the possibility of contaminated milk.
 
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Maybe it's because I spent a good bit of time working in restaurants, but this is something I've known about for ever, it seems. I'm really surprised that you all here weren't aware, would call it a lie, and deem it improbable.

You may have spent a good bit of time working in restaurants but at least one of the people you're arguing with is a registered nurse so I'll assume they know what they're talking about.
 

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