You must be swift as the coursing river (as long as it's the Lazy River) - comments welcome

[DopeyBadger]

Interesting - I feel like the book I read (Roar) presented it much more as "gels are bad; eat real food", but maybe this is a better explanation for why some people have GI issues with gels. I have actually never had problems myself, but I was here reading the boards before I tried any and so learned that I was supposed to have plenty of water at the same time.

Yes, I believe a lack of sufficient water is a big explanation for when people have issues with gels.

Yeah, I guess they could be supplementing with other things - I imagine at least for races they're doing more whatever's in their bottles (which could be a UCAN product or something else) than any gels. I'm pretty sure the hosts at Marathon Training Academy, who are much more on the regular-runner side of things, do use UCAN exclusively, but I don't know that they've shared their exact timing.

And don't get me wrong. UCAN can be right for some people. I know someone personally that I worked with that found their best performances when using UCAN. So whether it's misleading data or someone else is using it at a different content schedule, I do know the product can work for an individual.

Thanks! I have tried a bunch of different gels, and so far I've like Maurten and GU best flavor-wise. I'm more trying to figure out overall strategy - like theoretically I could have gels and Skratch if I do the isotonic ones, but then I get back to the problem of having to refill the Skratch mid-race which seems hard

But if you go with a concentrated form of Skratch then you wouldn't have to refill the handheld. Just ensure you're drinking on course water to supplement. That being said, I don't know if Skratch can be concentrated. I do know that Tailwind can be concentrated as much as 1 scoop per 1 oz water because that's what I do. But it's not for the faint of heart because it does pack a sweetness punch.

 

[nancipants]

Thanks! I have tried a bunch of different gels, and so far I've like Maurten and GU best flavor-wise. I'm more trying to figure out overall strategy - like theoretically I could have gels and Skratch if I do the isotonic ones, but then I get back to the problem of having to refill the Skratch mid-race which seems hard

I've been using Tailwind. You can buy individual packets that have two scoops worth (which are huge) and easily dump them into a handheld water bottle. I bought the larger bags of Tailwind and got snack-size zip lock bags from the dollar store. The first time I refilled during a long run it took me SO LONG to get the powder in the bottle without spilling it all. The second time was a lot easier, I put the top of the bag into the bottle and sort of smushed all the powder out of the opening. It's definitely not ideal if you're running with time goals in mind, but I'm not fast so it doesn't matter to me.

I've also heard of people using film canisters, which seems like it might be easier to dump and go.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

But if you go with a concentrated form of Skratch then you wouldn't have to refill the handheld. Just ensure you're drinking on course water to supplement. That being said, I don't know if Skratch can be concentrated. I do know that Tailwind can be concentrated as much as 1 scoop per 1 oz water because that's what I do. But it's not for the faint of heart because it does pack a sweetness punch.

I also don't know whether Skratch can be concentrated. But I feel like I would not want it if it the flavor were that much more intense

I've been using Tailwind. You can buy individual packets that have two scoops worth (which are huge) and easily dump them into a handheld water bottle. I bought the larger bags of Tailwind and got snack-size zip lock bags from the dollar store. The first time I refilled during a long run it took me SO LONG to get the powder in the bottle without spilling it all. The second time was a lot easier, I put the top of the bag into the bottle and sort of smushed all the powder out of the opening. It's definitely not ideal if you're running with time goals in mind, but I'm not fast so it doesn't matter to me.

I've also heard of people using film canisters, which seems like it might be easier to dump and go.

You can also get individual packets of Skratch; I just feel like I would need three hands to manage the bottle, cap, and dumping, much less do all that while running.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

September 18 - 24, 2023
Marathon training week 7 | 63 days until Space Coast Marathon
In which I am tired

Scheduled

ID: This week's schedule

Actual
Monday
Pilates/bodyweight strength

After some internal back-and-forth, I decided that the potential downside of going for a short run if my body wasn't ready for it after the race outweighed the benefit of a few extra miles. So I did a short bodyweight strength/Pilates routine instead - I could definitely feel the fatigue in my legs, but it wasn't too bad.

Tuesday
Easy: 6.57 miles, 1:08:36 (10:26), max HR 167, avg. 151, 96% Z1-2

I wasn't sure what this run would look like after the half on Sunday, but I felt surprisingly good. I managed to keep it super easy until the end when I was dodging tourists while running uphill and just wanted to be OUT of there, lol. I was pretty tired later in the day, though, so probably feeling that fatigue from the HM still.

core
mini upper body strength

I did the Wednesday strength and mobility on Tuesday to give my legs an extra day to recover - and I definitely noticed that my hamstrings were still tight when I was doing flutterkicks and similar exercises. But overall I was feeling pretty decent two days after a big HM PR.

Wednesday
Easy: 6.72 miles, 1:12:53 (10:51), max HR 166, avg. 151, 99% Z1-2

This run actually felt harder than Tuesday's (and my stats agree), so I guess I was still recovering.

mini lower body strength

Since I was so tired after my run, I decided to save the full lower body workout for later in the week after I recovered more. I stuck with lighter-than-normal weights for this mini routine.

Thursday
off

Two days of not running in one week? What is this, some kind of vacation?

Friday
LT intervals: 1.5 mile WU + 3 x 10 min @ LTP (7:46)/2 min RI + 1.5 mile CD
Interval split pace/GAP: 7:49/7:40, 7:41/7:41, 7:48/7:46
7.4 miles, 1:09:23, max HR 194, avg. 169

It's good that I felt more recovered after my rest day, because that was pretty hard. Since my easy runs aren't really pace-based, this was my first run with my new, slightly faster paces. I felt pretty good on the first two reps, but the last one was definitely more of a challenge. And I got a side stitch again in the last couple of miles of that final rep; I don't know why this is a thing now. But I didn't do a horrible job with the pacing this time! Go me.


ID: Workout analysis chart from Strava

lower body strength

I was tired after my workout, but I felt okay enough for my strength training. I did still use a little less weight than normal, at least for the first round, and then the structure of the routine got me back to normal levels eventually.

Saturday
Easy: 7.13 miles, 1:13:13 (10:16), max HR 162, avg. 147, 100% Z1-2

I ran basically the same route as Wednesday but felt much better, so I think I'm mostly recovered from the half now. We had rain pretty much all day on Saturday, but it was a light drizzle for most of my run and wasn't a problem.

upper body strength

Sunday
Long: 16.26 miles, 2:42:49 (10:01), max HR 173, avg. 155, 77% Z1-2

This morning I remembered why I usually do the full lower body strength workout on Tuesday rather than on Friday: my legs were feeling a bit sore either from the workout or the strength. Oh well. It was also drizzly again, and I didn't really want to go out, but I eventually got myself out the door to run a whole bunch of miles.

It took a few miles to get into a groove, but after that it wasn't bad. I didn't mind the drizzle because it cooled me off, although it did also get on my glasses and make it hard to see. I was happy when I finally got to the turnaround point and then I could run mostly downhill, which was much more pleasant. I had taken out the M pace segment I had in today's run in a previous iteration of the plan because I decided it might not actually be such a great idea a week after a HM to do a 16-mile workout, but there were bits when I wasn't far off MP as I was headed back. Everything did catch up with me a little, though, because I was feeling pretty tired in the last few miles and dealing with various aches and pains, particularly in my hamstrings. I kept pretty much the same pace, but I could feel the effort increasing. I got it done, though. When I stopped my watch it was just over 16, but it had had some tracking issues in the middle there. When I corrected the distance on Strava it added a decent chunk, so I guess I ran a little extra.

Fueling: I brought water and Skratch in my hydration vest. I had Honey Stinger chews throughout mile 5 and then tried a strawberry banana UCAN gel at the halfway point. It wasn't bad tasting - a bit chalky, but not as overwhelmingly sweet as some of the fruit-flavored fuels can be. However, that 75 minute thing is definitely a lie, because I actually felt hungry (which is weird by itself) about four miles (less than 40 minutes) later. I still had a Lara bar, though, so I ate that.

Also, I ended up with a couple of blisters on my toes despite smearing on the Vaseline beforehand Maybe it's the shoes? I don't often get blisters normally

Totals
Running: 44.1 miles, 7h 26m
Strength/mobility: 1h 30m
Total: 8h 57m


ID: Strava weekly training log

Coming up

ID: Next week's schedule

Back to normal, I guess!

 

[striker1064]

Also, I ended up with a couple of blisters on my toes despite smearing on the Vaseline beforehand

I recommend Injinji toe socks! I was a former sufferer of toe blisters; Injinji changed my running. Not a single blister since I switched. I've even switched out all my regular socks to Injinji!

 

[Scootin'By]

I've also heard of people using film canisters, which seems like it might be easier to dump and go.

Yeah, but where do you find film canisters anymore? I have two left which I treat like antiques for emergency use only!

 

[nancipants]

Yeah, but where do you find film canisters anymore? I have two left which I treat like antiques for emergency use only!

Amazon! You can buy them in bulk.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Building a training plan part 13: Checking in on marathon training
In which I am kind of tired

Part 1: What am I thinking??
Part 2: Sources
Part 3: Principles
Part 4: Elements of training
Part 5: Mental training
Part 6: Mile plan 1.0
Part 7: Mile plan 2.0
Part 8: Workouts
Part 9: Periodization
Part 10: Marathon plan 1.0
Part 11: Marathon plan 2.0
Part 12: Mile training reflections (and marathon plan 3.0)

Almost halfway through marathon training seems like a good time to check in and see how things are going and how I have adjusted my plan so far.

How things are going
As of today (Friday, September 29), I have run 349.82 miles since I started marathon training. I had a few days of elation when I PR'd my half a couple of weeks ago - that was fun And now I am mostly just tired.

ID: GIF of Tiana collapsing into bed

Case in point: I've been meaning to sit down and write this post for like three days and I just...haven't. Not because I've been super busy. Just tired. I have not had any real issues with training, but I do feel pretty slow and unmotivated otherwise. All of my energy is currently devoted to running, lol. Also Wordle and Spelling Bee I don't necessarily remember feeling this tired last time around, but I was running less, so maybe now I'm just pushing closer to my limits. Or I'm aging quickly Do other people feel really tired in the middle of their marathon training cycles?

What I've learned so far
1. Summer is hot. "Duh," I hear you say. And obviously I knew that it kind of sucks to run in the summer. But even though someone (I think it was @avondale) specifically warned me about summer marathon training, I failed to make enough adjustments, particularly to my workouts, when I was planning.

I don't really have much trouble with easy runs in the summer. They're not fun, but I'm running by effort anyway, and I just slow down and maybe carry extra hydration. However, I had a couple of workouts that were really, REALLY hard just due to the conditions I was running them in, even after I adjusted my paces. Since MCM is a month earlier than Space Coast and I will therefore be doing even more summer marathon training next year, I will have to remember to make my workouts during this time at least 10% easier than I would otherwise.

2. Long runs + heat/humidity = extra fatigue. While I didn't necessarily struggle particularly with my summer long runs, I did find that I was more tired than usual for my Monday runs. So now I have all my Monday runs set to 4 miles, except after down weeks. I have been finding that as the weather gets cooler, those Monday runs are starting to feel better, so I'm starting to bump them back up again in practice (this week I did 5 miles on Monday after 16 Sunday). I think I will keep them at 4 miles officially for this cycle and may go up to 5-6 depending on how I feel.

3. 50+ miles is a lot. I'm not super fast, and I usually do my easy runs a little to a lot slower than your average pace calculator would suggest. So I've been regularly running about 7-9 hours a week, and that, I'm realizing, is probably close to the maximum I can handle at my current level of fitness. Another thing to keep in mind when I'm planning for MCM, at which point my easy runs may or may not be faster. On the other hand...

4. Maybe it's okay for long runs to be > 3 hours? I've started listening to the Tread Lightly podcast, which I quite like, and their first episode was about whether long runs more than 3 hours increase injury risk. They looked at various wide-ranging studies and actually came to the opposite conclusion. Running Rogue, another podcast I really like for training advice, also talks about giving their runners multiple 20+ mile long runs in a marathon training cycle. So I feel slightly more open to this than I did before.

Now, none of them really addressed the question of proportionality - in other words, if you're running 40 miles a week and you do a 20 mile long run, the long run is 50% of your weekly mileage, which seems less than ideal. My peak weeks are 55 miles, of which a 20 mile long run would still be 36%, which still seems a bit high. But I have decided to include a couple of 18-milers in my schedule, which would be a little less than a third of weekly mileage and somehow seems better. Plus I did an 18 mile long run last time around and it was fine (and took just about 3 hours), so I have practice. ... One practice. Whatever. I'm doing it. Probably.

5. More core work? I feel like an extra day of core would be more helpful than two days of upper body strength. I'm just playing with where to fit the other core workout in. Still working on it and may or may not happen this round.

6. Tune-up races are . On the one hand, obviously I was really happy to PR my HM, and it was helpful to practice race day logistics and starting out slow. However, I also felt like a big chunk of the two weeks around it were tapering for and then recovering from the race, and then it was a bit of a struggle to get back into M training. So I'm still a bit torn about doing the same for future cycles. Maybe if I could find a 10K with good timing? I also feel like the timing for the race wasn't the best, so I could play with that too.

I think that's pretty much it? Overall I'd say things are going fairly well and also are a lot. And I have learned things. Hopefully it's all worth it on race day!


ID: One sleepy Rottweiler being absorbed by the couch

 

[jmasgat]

Also Wordle and Spelling Bee

But no Connections?

 

[Herding_Cats]

When I get tired in the middle of a training cycle I start taking my iron supplement. I’m terrible at remembering to take medications or supplements in general, and forget to take my iron most days. But when I get to the point that I’m randomly dozing off in the middle of the day, I get more serious about it (and it helps.)

 

[GollyGadget]

Do other people feel really tired in the middle of their marathon training cycles?

Yes! I probably average two more hours of sleep per night when in the midst of marathon training.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

But no Connections?

Oh yeah, I've been doing Connections too

 

[WillRunForPizza]

When I get tired in the middle of a training cycle I start taking my iron supplement. I’m terrible at remembering to take medications or supplements in general, and forget to take my iron most days. But when I get to the point that I’m randomly dozing off in the middle of the day, I get more serious about it (and it helps.)

Huh - I don't take any supplements right now, but that could be worth a try...

Yes! I probably average two more hours of sleep per night when in the midst of marathon training.

Well, at least it's not just me then

 

[azrivest]

Where do you guys find the time to sleep more??

 

[striker1064]

I am so, so tired. Like... All the time. I don't remember this from last year!

 

[WillRunForPizza]

Where do you guys find the time to sleep more??

I don't necessarily sleep that much more at night, but I take way more naps. Not having kids definitely helps with finding time

I am so, so tired. Like... All the time. I don't remember this from last year!

At least we can all have solidarity in our general exhaustion

 

[GollyGadget]

Where do you guys find the time to sleep more??

I don’t have any tiny humans to keep alive.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

September 25 - October 1, 2023
Marathon training week 7 | 56 days until Space Coast Marathon
In which the weather is nice and therefore my HR monitor is crap

Scheduled

ID: This week's schedule

Actual
Monday
Easy: 5 miles, 52:09 (10:24), max HR 163, avg. 149, 100% Z1-2

I was pretty tired in the morning, so I saved my run for lunchtime. (Yay for fall letting me run in the afternoon.) By the time I got out there, I was feeling pretty good, so I went ahead and did 5 miles instead of 4. Like I said in my check-in post, I think I'll probably end up doing 5-6 miles most Mondays going forward - now that it's cooler, the fatigue from long runs isn't quite as intense. But I'll just leave them at 4 in the schedule and stop there if I need to.

Pilates/lower body strength

Tuesday
Threshold: 2 mile WU + 3 miles @ LTP + 2.1 mile CD
Interval splits: 8:04, 7:46, 7:32
GAP: 7:36, 7:47, 7:23
7.1 miles, 1:06:25, ??


ID: Workout analysis chart from Strava

Another drizzly morning but not unpleasant for running. I felt pretty good during the workout except that I might have tweaked something running down a hill at the very end of the threshold portion. It ached a bit during the cooldown but wasn't too bad, so hopefully it wasn't anything major.

No HR data for basically the whole LT segment

lower body strength
mini upper body strength

I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but wow that 45 on/20 off of jump squats/lateral jump + curtsy lunges/jumping lunges, back to back to back, is something

Wednesday
Easy: 7.4 miles, 1:17:29 (10:28), max HR 163, avg. 145, 100% Z1-2

Continuing pleasant running weather. No hamstring issues on the run, which was good, but I did have sort of a dull ache later in the day, which was not as good.

core

Thursday
off

Yay. I was tired.

Friday
Medium-long: 10.3 miles, 1:50:25 (10:43), max HR 165, avg. 149, 99% Z1-2

I finally felt warmed up around mile 7, and then by mile 8 my blister hurt...so I had like one good mile in there.

I had a pineapple UCAN Edge gel about 45 minutes in, which was good. Other than a slightly off-putting chalkiness, the flavors of these gels are much better and more natural-tasting than any other fruit gels I've had. And I wasn't starving 40 minutes later this time.

I was supposed to do my mini lower body strength, but my dad was in town for a meeting and had the afternoon free between the end of the meeting and his flight, so instead I hung out with him.

Saturday
Easy/strides: 8.67 miles, 1:30:55 (10:29), max HR 172, avg. 148, 97% Z1-2

Contrary to all of my whining about being tired on Friday (at least I'm not the only one I guess?), I actually felt pretty good on this run. I really didn't mean to run an extra 2/3 of a mile though - instead I was in "let's see where this sidewalk goes" mode and wasn't really paying attention to the distance. It could have been worse. And my blister didn't bother me on this run, which was good. Really can't complain. (Except about tourists. You can always complain about tourists. It's in the rules.)

upper body strength

Usually I do the first round with weights a little lighter than normal so I don't die on the third sets. You can probably see where this is going: this time I did not do that. The third sets were definitely not pretty, but I survived.

Sunday
Long - MP: 6 miles easy + 7 miles @ MP + 1.65 mile CD
MP splits: 9:08, 8:54, 8:21, 8:29, 8:34, 8:37, 8:31
GAP: 8:39, 8:51, 8:31, 8:37, 8:35, 8:37, 8:28
14.65 miles, 2:18:49, max HR 180, avg. 158

After a fairly long stretch of cool and overcast weather, it's sunny again. It was nice while it lasted

Just like Saturday, I felt pretty good starting out despite the bright sunlight (I was in the shade for most of the run, so it wasn't too bad). My easy miles were surprisingly fast, at least until I got to the incline. I started off the faster segment a little slower than my (theoretical) marathon pace, which was good both because I'm not actually going to run a marathon at this pace and because I was still going uphill. Then my watch had some weird GPS issue again. I can tell because I was definitely not running an 11 minute mile

Anyway, I had split up the 7 miles @ MP into two segments in the plan because I decided not to do 6 miles @ MP last week, and I wasn't sure how 7 would go. But when I got to the end of the 4-mile segment, I felt fine, so I ended up just skipping the 5-minute recovery and doing the whole MP segment all at once. (I guess the 13.1 miles at HMP two weeks ago did count for something ) So hooray for finishing 26% of a marathon at marathon pace! I could have kept going for at least a few more miles without much trouble, so I was happy with that.

I got to thinking as I was out there about how I could never have done this run in training last year. When I was training for last year's DC Half, I really struggled to complete even 5 miles at HMP (which was about the same as what I ran for MP today). It's cool to look back and see how far I've come! Consistency FTW lol

mini lower body strength

Oh hey, I actually managed to get this one in.

Totals
Running: 53.15 miles, 8h 56m
Strength/mobility: 1h 27m
Total: 10h 24m


ID: Strava weekly training log

Well, after everything I said about being so so so tired, I actually felt much better this weekend despite a pretty high-mileage week I wonder if maybe what was really tiring me out was just recovering from a half while continuing marathon training? Hopefully yes, so that during the second half of my training I can be just a normal amount of tired instead of completely exhausted

Coming up

ID: Next week's schedule

Another race weekend! This time, though, I'm just running easy. The current plan is to do 8 basically on the way to the race and then finish it up on the course, but we'll see how quickly I can get out the door. At least since I don't care about my time, I'm not at all concerned about getting there early or finding a bathroom before the race (although I think you might have to go through security since the race starts at the Pentagon? I should probably check on that). Mostly I am hoping the discount running vendor is at the expo so I can pick up some new shoes

 

[DopeyBadger]

4. Maybe it's okay for long runs to be > 3 hours? I've started listening to the Tread Lightly podcast, which I quite like, and their first episode was about whether long runs more than 3 hours increase injury risk. They looked at various wide-ranging studies and actually came to the opposite conclusion. Running Rogue, another podcast I really like for training advice, also talks about giving their runners multiple 20+ mile long runs in a marathon training cycle. So I feel slightly more open to this than I did before.

Now, none of them really addressed the question of proportionality - in other words, if you're running 40 miles a week and you do a 20 mile long run, the long run is 50% of your weekly mileage, which seems less than ideal. My peak weeks are 55 miles, of which a 20 mile long run would still be 36%, which still seems a bit high. But I have decided to include a couple of 18-milers in my schedule, which would be a little less than a third of weekly mileage and somehow seems better. Plus I did an 18 mile long run last time around and it was fine (and took just about 3 hours), so I have practice. ... One practice. Whatever. I'm doing it. Probably.

I think you hit on one of the big things that gets missed when discussing the duration of the long run. It shouldn't be viewed in a vacuum. Otherwise, we'd be fine with recommending someone do 1x training run per week at 3 hrs. I don't think anyone would realistically recommend that. So then it comes down to how much the long run is relative to the rest of the week. I think the basis for the increased injury risk is whether the long run duration is "too much" because you haven't done enough training to support your ability to do that duration safely in the midst of a training run and not in a race scenario. So I think the max duration recommendation matters whether you're a 4hr per week runner or an 11hr per week runner.

But secondly is the pace. If I were to recommend you go for a 3hr leisure walk, then are you at an increased injury risk despite a lack of appropriate training in the rest of the week? Probably not. At least not as increased injury risk if you ran it at a normal training run pace. So pace of the long run matters. And I think that's where people get in trouble. Because lots of people (myself included back in the day) race the long runs more than they should. We run the long run far far too fast to be supported by the rest of the training we do. If you want to run further in training, then try running it much slower. A much slower long run is going to have a lesser injury risk than a faster one. Such that you could run longer than 180 min with no more an increased injury risk compared to something shorter but faster.

 

[WillRunForPizza]

So pace of the long run matters. And I think that's where people get in trouble. Because lots of people (myself included back in the day) race the long runs more than they should. We run the long run far far too fast to be supported by the rest of the training we do. If you want to run further in training, then try running it much slower. A much slower long run is going to have a lesser injury risk than a faster one. Such that you could run longer than 180 min with no more an increased injury risk compared to something shorter but faster.

That makes a lot of sense. I did put some MP intervals in my second 18-miler, but maybe I'm better off doing that one easy too.