Just back from DVC tour- got some juicy tidbits (rumors)

[pilferk]

Also would like to add that even under the best "Path" scenario no one would walk this path from June to October simply because it would be a long hot miserable walk. I cannot see them going to the expense for a path that would only likely be used 8 months of the year.

I'm not sure you'd want to walk it in December and January, when it can be in the low 50's and windy, either, especially early in the AM (when the parks open) or later in the PM.

 

[spiceycat]

A slight correction... Disney Vacation Development announced only two DVC resorts that were never built: the Newport Beach location and the location at Eagle Pines Gold Course. In both cases, the DVC resorts were announced in good faith, but Disney subsequently did not proceed with them after all.

I though once read about a dvc resort in Paris at DL France. back when DL France was new.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

Question: If you put it on the eastern side or rear of AKL...how would guests get to it? There is ample savannah between the areas that you can't really "plow through". So you'd have to circumnavigate it...likely from the entrance of the hotel (which is where all the "straight to the theme park" paths at WDW currently begin).

From there, to get to AKL, if you go to the western edge...you'd have to both circumnavigate around or through the animal support infrastructure AND open a 2nd gate...for access by 1 resort. With Epcot, it made sense. 3 Disney resorts AND you were trying to pull traffic out of Epcot to the boardwalk businesses and attractions...so you benefitted from the 2 way traffic.

At AKL, it's one resort, and there isnt' the type of offerings the boardwalk enjoys....so the benefits from 2 way traffic would be minimal. In addition, with the shorter AKL hours, it becomes less cost effective to run it.

The only "2nd gate" I can think of is at Epcot. Every other resort that has a walking path to a theme park drops guest directly at the entrance. The walking paths to MGM, and the Contemps path to MK, both do that....so I don't think that figuring AKL would do the same is an outlandish assumtion.

I've said before, and will say again...a walking path from AKL is, IMHO, a long shot at best.

like I said Im not sure what the landscape and current situations would allow. I dont have my hands on their plans and layouts

IF they wanted it, it surely could be done. We are talking acres and acres of land here.

Are you telling me theres nowhere from the entrance of AKL or along the whole eastern section where a simple path could nopt be constructed. Its not like a small section of the Savanah could not be incorportated into the path, thereby making the path more enticing and seemingly less of a walk.

Even at that point if it went to the main entance then so be it. thats fine

Also, there might not be as much 2 way traffic, but like I said the path need not be looked at as simply a way to get to AK. It can be viewed as a regualr walking path, a jogging path, a bike path, it can used to get more up close and personal to the Savanah along the way.

If you want the AKL/AKV to start to feel less remote, then what are some ways to do it?

pretend you're figment for awhile and just use some imagination

its much more fun to imagine what could be than to always think of ways it cant be

 

[sjdisneywedding]

Also would like to add that even under the best "Path" scenario no one would walk this path from June to October simply because it would be a long hot miserable walk. I cannot see them going to the expense for a path that would only likely be used 8 months of the year.

are you kiddine me? June? Sept? Oct? too miserable?

July and Aug? the busiest months of the year?

I would guess the path would be moslty covered and probably cooler than walking around the park itself

and again what expense? even with infrastucture, security, construction, maintenance does anyone know what it would cost? probably no more than an extra bus over 20 years. the dumb path would cover itself if it led to even the slighest of increases in occupancy or a small alteration of the bus schedule.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

I'm not sure you'd want to walk it in December and January, when it can be in the low 50's and windy, either, especially early in the AM (when the parks open) or later in the PM.

you cant be serious?

its amazing anyone is even at WDW most of the year in these extremes temperatures.

 

[keishashadow]

Let me clarify. If Disney intentionally misleads the public about there not being a Contemporary DVC in the works then it would be cause for legal action.

My point is that if they had absolutely ruled out a DVC there they would announce it, since it would help their sales elsewhere.

but have they even officially acknowledged a "rehab" of the CR North building ; let alone a tear-down/new construction?

even if it's a diliberate stonewall, i'd think it'd fall under proprietary information protection, if not; i'm sure they've got plenty of errors of omission insurance jik.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

Question: If you put it on the eastern side or rear of AKL...how would guests get to it? There is ample savannah between the areas that you can't really "plow through". So you'd have to circumnavigate it...likely from the entrance of the hotel (which is where all the "straight to the theme park" paths at WDW currently begin).

From there, to get to AKL, if you go to the western edge...you'd have to both circumnavigate around or through the animal support infrastructure AND open a 2nd gate...for access by 1 resort. With Epcot, it made sense. 3 Disney resorts AND you were trying to pull traffic out of Epcot to the boardwalk businesses and attractions...so you benefitted from the 2 way traffic.

At AKL, it's one resort, and there isnt' the type of offerings the boardwalk enjoys....so the benefits from 2 way traffic would be minimal. In addition, with the shorter AKL hours, it becomes less cost effective to run it.

The only "2nd gate" I can think of is at Epcot. Every other resort that has a walking path to a theme park drops guest directly at the entrance. The walking paths to MGM, and the Contemps path to MK, both do that....so I don't think that figuring AKL would do the same is an outlandish assumtion.

I've said before, and will say again...a walking path from AKL is, IMHO, a long shot at best.

Also I am just going off of the rumor from the OP.

It says a "back door" entrance.

to me that does NOT mean a path from the doors of AKL/AKV to the front door of AK park

so maybe the rumor is just that, but in discussing it and its validity, I am not sure why all of a sudden we are talking door to door

 

[pilferk]

like I said Im not sure what the landscape and current situations would allow. I dont have my hands on their plans and layouts

The maps provided give you a good indication of what the layout is. I don't think you need much more than that to speculate.

IF they wanted it, it surely could be done. We are talking acres and acres of land here.

Sure, if they wanted it bad enough. So the question is: is there enough benefit to them to expend the resources necessary to take on the project. Looking at what they'd have to "get through" to put a path down, they'd have to want it pretty bad to justify things. I'm trying (and to date, no one has provided a good answer) to see what could possibly make them want it "pretty bad".

Are you telling me theres nowhere from the entrance of AKL or along the whole eastern section where a simple path could nopt be constructed.

What I'm saying is: There is no place that currently has guest access to it. So asserting that path would "start at the eastern edge" isn't realistic, because there's no place there that guests can access....which means to put a path there, you ALSO need to build a way for the guests to access it. And that, functionally, is the same as building a path from the resort entrance.

Its not like a small section of the Savanah could not be incorportated into the path, thereby making the path more enticing and seemingly less of a walk.

Sorry, that's completely unrealistic. It just is, given the hotel set up and the logistics involved. Guest can't go tromping through the savannah. Around/along the outside of it it, maybe...but then we're back to the issues with circumnavigation. I suppose you could build something elavated OVER IT...a sort of "fly over" that was completely enclosed like a hampster habitrail (because you wouldn't want guests to be able to drop things out onto the savannah). Again, though, you're talking an expensive and resource hogging project...even moreso now, for little tangible benefit that anyone can demonstrate. There's also issues with accessibility, in an emergency, for a structure that long/large that would extend over the savannah.

Even at that point if it went to the main entance then so be it. thats fine.

Then, again, we're back to a 1.5 mile "trail" that will take you about 2 to 3x longer to traverse than the bus ride will. And the bus ride is climate controlled and protected from the elements as well. So what's the impetus for guests to use it over the buses already running? The stroll? I don't think that's enough of an impetus to compel a large group of the guests to use it regularly.

Also, there might be as much 2 way traffic, but like I said the path need not be looked at as simply a way to get to AK. It can be viewed as a regualr walking path, a jogging path, a bike path, it can used to get more up close and personal to the Savanah along the way.

Other than resort guests, and those using the relatively (in comparison to the Boardwalks offerings) small dining establishments at AKL...why would there be 2 way traffic? So people can "sightsee" at AKL? While there is some "sell the resort to future guests" benefit in that, I don't think it's tangible enough, or extensive enough, for Disney to decide to build a footpath to encourage it.

On the walking path, jogging path, and bike path....sure. But do you think that's enough of an "attraction" to pull in a significant number of guests to AKL? Enough to justify the cost of the path? On the "up close and personal" to tha savannah....I'll go back to my previous paragraphs. That's just not a good idea, for a whole host of reasons. Disney doesn't provide that type of experience NOW, at AKL, and they certainly could have. Doing so is an accident waiting to happen (likely for the animals, as much as the guests) unless Disney could control the environemnt completely. You can't do that on a walking trail, unless it's entirely enclosed (and, in Florida, that would likely mean climate controlled since the sun beating down on a "clear walled" habitrail is likely to result in extreme temps).

If you want the AKL/AKV to start to feel less remote, then what are some ways to do it?

IF that's what they want (and I'm not sure it is....the "remoteness" might be seen as part of it's appeal), there are better ways (in terms of resource useage and return on investment perspectives ) to do it. There's lots of area to develop down in that corner of the park that could provide a lot more broad appeal than a footpath would, IMHO. The Western Beltway development could help, but something like it, but more "disney/touristy" would be a good step. Maybe some secondary attractions (like the water parks, but NOT another waterpark) would work too.

The access to AK isn't what makes AKL feel "remote", either, IMHO. The bus access is plenty fast to that park. It's the access to the other parks (which isn't bad, IMHO), resorts, and ancillary stuff (like DTD) that makes it feel that way. Again, I'm not sure a footpath would address that...considering it would likely take you as long, if not longer, to walk it than to take the bus.

pretend you're figment for awhile and just use some imagination

its much more fun to imagine what could be than to always think of ways it cant be

I'm all for imagination...tempered with a dose of realism for the purposes of discussion. It's not a matter of thinking what "can't be" (and keep in mind, this rumor is long standing and has been discussed extensively in the past...so we're not treading new ground here), but a matter of tempering that sense of what "can be" with a sense of what's practical in the eyes of Disney. I can imagine all sorts of neat things that Disney COULD do. Extending the monorail, for example. Building an interactive "adventure" using some of their unused property, for example. Building a villains theme park, for example. But I recognize they might not be the best use, in the Mouse's opinion, of their resources, either because of lack of ROI/profitability or lack of general appeal (which amounts to much the same thing). I think that's what we're looking at here....an opinion shored up by the fact Disney hasn't done it and they've had ample time to do so. I certainly don't think it's because they haven't thought of it already.

My point in all this isn't that it's not a good bit of imagination. It's not that it's completely unworkable if enough resources were thrown at it. It's not even that it's a "bad idea". It's that it's not very practical considering what it would cost vs the benefits (to both guests and, especially, to Disney). And once we move beyond imagination...unfortunately that's what we have to start looking at.

 

[pilferk]

you cant be serious?

its amazing anyone is even at WDW most of the year in these extremes temperatures.

30 min walk in 50 degree, windy weather vs 10 min bus ride.

30 min walk in sweltering heat vs 10 min bus ride.


You can't compare that to walking around the parks because walking the parks is necessary to experiencing the attractions. Walking TO the park from AKL isn't.

I would guess MOST guests will choose the method that is both quicker and more comfortable. Why wouldn't they?

 

[pilferk]

and again what expense? even with infrastucture, security, construction, maintenance does anyone know what it would cost? probably no more than an extra bus over 20 years. the dumb path would cover itself if it led to even the slighest of increases in occupancy or a small alteration of the bus schedule.

Nobody knows about occupancy. I'd say if Disney's mountain of guest survey results showed the path would be an impetus for guests to stay there to the point of offsetting costs of the path, there'd be a path. That's more compelling, to me, than speculation. Sure they could be wrong...but at least we know they know more about it than we do.

On altering bus schedules....can't do it. They come regularly now...how could you alter them? They're set based on "guest satisfaction" results vs costs...walking the fine line of keeping guests happy and costs down. You can't make them wait longer, because you have to go by the assumption that you pull away and a guest shows up. Just because there might be a % of fewer guests on board....you can't delay the route progression. You'd just run them less full (and, actually, reduce their efficiency). So I doubt you could reclaim much in the way of cost savings from the buses.

 

[pilferk]

Also I am just going off of the rumor from the OP.

It says a "back door" entrance.

to me that does NOT mean a path from the doors of AKL/AKV to the front door of AK park

so maybe the rumor is just that, but in discussing it and its validity, I am not sure why all of a sudden we are talking door to door

Back door can mean LOTS of things....and from lots of places.

We're talking "door to door" because, regardless of the rumor (which, IMHO, is ONLY that...it's cropped up before as far back as the opening of AKL), it's the only "practical" solution anyone can see. Nobody has yet pointed out a practical alternative. That's why I asked you the question I did a few posts back: If it's "back door", how do you get guests to AKL's "back door" without disturbing the existing lodge's infrastructure, animals, and savannah.

And how/where do you put the "back door" at AK? And what's the reasoning behind that to justify Disney expending the resources to do it?

 

[sjdisneywedding]

The maps provided give you a good indication of what the layout is. I don't think you need much more than that to speculate..

not really, not to me anyway, I have even more detailed maps, with less cover between the reosort and park, but again I dont know whats in use, out of use, barely used etc

Sorry, that's completely unrealistic. It just is, given the hotel set up and the logistics involved. Guest can't go tromping through the savannah. I suppose you could build something elavated...a sort of "fly over" that was completely enclosed like a hampster habitrail (because you wouldn't want guests to be able to drop things out onto the savannah). Again, though, you're talking an expensive and resource hogging project...even moreso now, for little tangible benefit that anyone can demonstrate..

I dont necessarily mean through it, what about along it? There is a current path/road that leads from the pool, runs along the south of the Savanah to a building used for animal/savanah maintenance. That might easily be used as a start to the path. It is outside the savanah itself and would dump out to the east of the building

Then, again, we're back to a 1.5 mile "trail" that will take you about 2 to 3x longer to traverse than the bus ride will. And the bus ride is climate controlled and protected from the elements as well. So what's the impetus for guests to use it over the buses already running? The stroll? I don't think that's enough of an impetus to compel a large group of the guests to use it regularly.

I still think you can get this in at a bit over a mile IMO. and that is not much further than BWV to Spaceship Earth, not too far for a path.
Plus I think the walk and bus ride is closer in time than you say. with wait times and everything

Other than resort guests, and those using the relatively (in comparison to the Boardwalks offerings) small dining establishments at AKL...why would there be 2 way traffic? ..

there would not be, you must have beat me to the edit

On the walking path, jogging path, and bike path....sure. But do you think that's enough of an "attraction" to pull in a significant number of guests to AKL? Enough to justify the cost of the path? ..

yes, I think that alone is enough to justify the cost nevermind the access to AK. Its a resort after all, not just some hotel. That should be part of the resort regardless of cost.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

Nobody knows about occupancy. I'd say if Disney's mountain of guest survey results showed the path would be an impetus for guests to stay there to the point of offsetting costs of the path, there'd be a path. That's more compelling, to me, than speculation. Sure they could be wrong...but at least we know they know more about it than we do.

On altering bus schedules....can't do it. They come regularly now...how could you alter them? They're set based on "guest satisfaction" results vs costs...walking the fine line of keeping guests happy and costs down. You can't make them wait longer, because you have to go by the assumption that you pull away and a guest shows up. Just because there might be a % of fewer guests on board....you can't delay the route progression. You'd just run them less full (and, actually, reduce their efficiency). So I doubt you could reclaim much in the way of cost savings from the buses.

Of course you could alter the schedule

IF you had a path, you could easily set the busses arrivals back 5 minutes. easily.

no we dont know about occupancy, nor do we know about the distance of the path, if theres a path, if people would use, if theres a dvc at CR.

its all what if..... well what IF a path led to greater occupancy? would it then be worth it?

 

[sjdisneywedding]

Back door can mean LOTS of things....and from lots of places.

We're talking "door to door" because, regardless of the rumor (which, IMHO, is ONLY that...it's cropped up before as far back as the opening of AKL), it's the only "practical" solution anyone can see. Nobody has yet pointed out a practical alternative. That's why I asked you the question I did a few posts back: If it's "back door", how do you get guests to AKL's "back door" without disturbing the existing lodge's infrastructure, animals, and savannah.

And how/where do you put the "back door" at AK? And what's the reasoning behind that to justify Disney expending the resources to do it?

its the only "practical" solution being offered by those who want to try to make the path seem as if it would be too long to walk.

 

[fishermouse]

Not that I think it will happen, I doubt it will JMO. Seems to me you just have to move that yellow line a little to the bottom of the page and add a few curves to end up right at the bus stops or through the wooded area right to the front gate. Doubt if it would be any farther than BWV to MGM, I'm sure some one will have the exact distance. I would walk it in just about any Florida weather and probably many others would also. WDW is all about walking, unless the trafic from AKV really increases the flow to AK I don't see a need for the walk way. They probably would not have put the walk way from BWV to MGM except everything was already in place just had to dress up a service road that already followed the canal.

 

[pilferk]

not really, not to me anyway, I have even more detailed maps, with less cover between the reosort and park, but again I dont know whats in use, out of use, barely used etc

To be EXACT? Yes. To be GENERAL? No. Buildings are in use. The water treatment pond is in use. Avoid those.

I dont necessarily mean through it, what about along it? There is a current path/road that leads from the pool, runs along the south of the Savanah to a building used for animal/savanah maintenance. That might easily be used as a start to the path. It is outside the savanah itself and would dump out to the east of the building

That road is a service road. One of it's uses is for the care and feeding of the animals (there are other uses, as well). To use it for guests you'd have to take it out of service for the cast members, provide them with another "off stage" route to perform their duties, enclose the original path (because, again, guests can't be directly interacting with the animals or throwing stuff onto the savannah) or move it far enough away that guests/animals couldn't interact (tough, given the paths current route). Again, a lot of resources and work for what tangible benefit?

I still think you can get this in at a bit over a mile IMO. and that is not much further than BWV to Spaceship Earth, not too far for a path.
Plus I think the walk and bus ride is closer in time than you say. with wait times and everything

I scaled it out and hugging the road and taking the shortest path I could think of that still skirted AROUND the buildings and water treatment plant and I got 1.33 miles. I think that's a safe bet, door to door...but I don't expect anyone to take my word for it. If you all can find a shorter path/distance, I'd be open to seeing it.

Edit: Checked some things.

Average adult pedestrian walking speed is about 3 MPH, from the studies I've seen.

That equates to a 27 minute walk, by my estimation.

I've ridden the bus. It takes, MAX, 10 min to get from AKL to AK. I've never waited more than 20 min (and that was RARE..only happened once and we arrived JUST after the bus left) for a bus. So, on that day, it would have taken 3 min less to walk. Bus comes any quicker than that (and they usually do) and you're better off with the bus just on time alone.

yes, I think that alone is enough to justify the cost nevermind the access to AK. Its a resort after all, not just some hotel. That should be part of the resort regardless of cost.

On that we'll have to agree to disagree. Considering occupancy rates at other deluxes like the GF, Contemp, and Poly.....while I'm sure it's a benefit at WL, and the Epcot resorts, I'm not sure it's compelling ENOUGH to drive occupancy to the point it would offset the costs. Disney seemingly agrees, at this point because...well, if they didn't I'd think there'd be a path.

 

[sjdisneywedding]

I scaled it out and hugging the road and taking the shortest path I could think of that still skirted AROUND the buildings and water treatment plant and I got 1.33 miles. I think that's a safe bet, door to door...but I don't expect anyone to take my word for it. If you all can find a shorter path/distance, I'd be open to seeing it.

Edit: Checked some things.

Average adult pedestrian walking speed is about 3 MPH, from the studies I've seen.

That equates to a 27 minute walk, by my estimation.

you want alternatives, then check the distance here. from the back of the proposed AKV straight over to the front door of AK. its only about 3/4 of a mile. you are behind the savanah but do have to worry about the water plant, even a winding rd at that point should keep the disatnce at just about a mile

yes the ave speed is 3 which is what I was trying to tell everyone before.

you get that path down to 3/4-1 mile and you are talking 15-20 minutes tops.

you cant tell me people would not be jumping all over that option. heck we rent a car when we go just to avoid the busses. I dont care if average is 10 minutes per trip theres always that one time that will through it all off. If you walk you know exactly what you are in for, no worries as to wheres the bus, did we miss the last bus.

 

[dwelty]

are you kiddine me? June? Sept? Oct? too miserable?

July and Aug? the busiest months of the year?

I would guess the path would be moslty covered and probably cooler than walking around the park itself

and again what expense? even with infrastucture, security, construction, maintenance does anyone know what it would cost? probably no more than an extra bus over 20 years. the dumb path would cover itself if it led to even the slighest of increases in occupancy or a small alteration of the bus schedule.

I think it comes down to the fact that Disney is a business. AKL DVC sales are well ahead of schedule despite the lack of any announcement of a special path to DAK. Disney will not spend the money for this unless they can prove a large return on investment.

I do not think a slight increase in occupancy or a small alteration of the bus schedule will be enough to motivate them to do this.

The question is not "Would this work" The real question is "Will Disney do it"?

 

[sjdisneywedding]

I think it comes down to the fact that Disney is a business. AKL DVC sales are well ahead of schedule despite the lack of any announcement of a special path to DAK. Disney will not spend the money for this unless they can prove a large return on investment.

sorry I just can not agree with all the people saying just because sales are fine on AKV that you cant add benefits to the resort.

Thats about the worst business one could practice.

tthats like saying hey BCV are sold out so lets just leave em alone forever.

you are supposed to stay ahead of the game, we have had countless discussions here on similar situations

just because its not a benefit for everyone does not mean its not a benefit. If you can appeal to MORE people by doing some things or adding some things then you do it.

 

[pilferk]

you want alternatives, then check the distance here. from the back of the proposed AKV straight over to the front door of AK. its only about 3/4 of a mile

I want realistic alternatives, though. Those aren't realistic.

First, because you're not accounting for GETTING the guests to the AKL starting point. You're simply arbitrarily picking a starting point outside the lodge proper and going with it. So add the distance to get the guests FROM the lodge, to the point at the the outskirts. You're looking at about 1/2 to 3/4 of a mile of "skirting" to get there, if you can at all. You can't traipse them through the savannah, and your point is smack dab in the middle of the back end of arusha savannah.

Second, you're drawing lines over buildings and a water treatment pond on the AK side. You can't go THROUGH those areas, you'd have to go around. So add distance to that. And take into account there is no current infrastructure there for an entrance...in either place. So you're reducing the "practicality of building" by even more.

yes the ave speed is 3 which is what I was trying to tell everyone before.

you get that path down to 3/4-1 mile and you are talking 15-20 minutes tops.

Again, realistically you're talking about 25 minutes for a healthy, average, adult pedestrian. Not a stroller pushing, ladened down, or "older" pedestrian. Not a pedestrian herding children. Just someone out of an average paced walk. Just to be clear.

you cant tell me people would not be jumping all over that option. heck we rent a car when we go just to avoid the busses. I dont care if average is 10 minutes per trip theres always that one time that will through it all off. If you walk you know exactly what you are in for, no worries as to wheres the bus, did we miss the last bus.

I wouldn't be. And I like to walk. I can't tell you what anyone else's reaction would be...and neither can you. I CAN tell you that Disney has volumes of guest satisfaction survey research and they don't seem to think enough people would be jumping on the option.

No, not the average. The MAX it's taken is 10 minutes. MAX. I'd say average is closer to 7 or 8, maybe a bit less. You're talking about 2.25 miles from AKL's bus stop to AK's bus stop (including crossing the parking lot, etc).

I'd take my chances with the bus vs a 25 min walk, considering what I know of the disney bus system. Unless the bus literally just pulled away, I'm going to get to AK quicker via bus more often than not. That's simple odds and logic. I'm not, certainly, going to challenge the odds that I might save 3 or 4 minutes on the OFF chance the bus just pulled away. That makes no sense.