Covid And The Rest of Us

[kdonnel]

One Italian professor did a behavioral study and found people behaved more cautiously as others in public took more precaution.

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I would certainly give a wider berth to someone wearing goggles because I would assume they have more fear then I do at the moment and would prefer I stayed farther away. Passing another unmasked person I would assume they had a similar level of fear to myself and would not be bothered by me passing close by.

I think the study just proves that people generally make an attempt to adjust their social norms to match the social norms requested by those around them.

 

[Karin1984]

The RKI produces a daily (even Sunday!) report which has almost too much detail I think. The English version may have a bit less, but for anyone who likes data, there is so much here.
https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ...chte/2020-08-30-en.pdf?__blob=publicationFile

I did some more digging, there is information per province, but it is in a very detailed report on the RIVM website. It is not what the newspapers etc use for their articles, they only publish high level information.

I think there may be some merit to this argument. In England masks are mandatory in shops; in Wales masks are advised. I have noticed that in both countries fellow customers wearing masks tend to be more respectful of personal space. Even on dog walks in the countryside, when masks are not compulsory in either country, I give people a much wider berth if they are wearing a mask. I suppose that I am respectful of their decision to be cautious.

I have the same, probably because masks are not obligatory here except in public transport, my thoughts are that those who do wear a mask in other places are more at risk and I give them more space. Same for the elderly.

 

[ford family]

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/30/fda...avirus-vaccine-before-phase-three-trials.html

Hard pass.

If a vaccine is really approved by the end of this year, or even early next year, in this method, one should be very wary. We’re talking about a vaccine, not a lifesaving drug.

No one I know will be among the first group to be part of what will basically be an expanded phase 3 study if a vaccine actually gets emergency use approval before study results become known.

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion but you shouldn't criticise what other people choose to do.
We are quite capable of making decisions based on our personal needs and expectations.
The comment that you and your peer group won't be amongst the first group to be vaccinated implies that you know better than those who do go ahead.
It is elitist and patronising.

ford family

 

[godisney14]

Obviously you are entitled to your opinion but you shouldn't criticise what other people choose to do.
We are quite capable of making decisions based on our personal needs and expectations.
The comment that you and your peer group won't be amongst the first group to be vaccinated implies that you know better than those who do go ahead.
It is elitist and patronising.

ford family

Okay.
But, where in my post shows that I was criticizing someone who was wanting to get that first dose?

I worked in various parts of the biotech industry, and so I’m well familiar with the rigor of the FDA approval process. Skipping a step without the full information for something that is not life threatening can be dangerous. As you say, this is my opinion. So, obviously, you are free to decide what you want to do.

Didn’t the FDA also give EUA to HCQ?

 

[bavaria]

Is may be just my perception but I’d say exactly the opposite. When most people were unmasked people stayed farther apart (myself included) and masked they tend to get closer together. I’ve even noticed people at work and church resume handshakes and hugs since our mask mandate came in a month ago and several convenience stores and gas stations have taken the plastic barriers down.

I read something similar - that often public health doesn't want to mandate masks because they provide a false sense of security, and people stop social distancing, or increase their groups, because they think that that the mask keeps everyone safe.

 

[ronandannette]

I read something similar - that often public health doesn't want to mandate masks because they provide a false sense of security, and people stop social distancing, or increase their groups, because they think that that the mask keeps everyone safe.

This was one of the things I've been pondering, given our numbers since mask mandates have actually increased at a pace greater than in the last weeks of lock-down.

We are travelling to the province of Ontario mid-September. They do not have a provincial mask mandate, only city-by-city by-law requirements. By that time it may feel weird to be without them but since we wear them to comply with requirements, it will be a nice break. Who knows - I may even put on lipstick again! We will visit Toronto, Ottawa and Niagara Falls; only Toronto currently requires masking. It is of interest to me that Ottawa, our nation's capital, does not require them.
https://www.rebelnews.com/ontario_government_contradicts_local_mask_mandates

 

[mommasita]

This was one of the things I've been pondering, given our numbers since mask mandates have actually increased at a pace greater than in the last weeks of lock-down.

We are travelling to the province of Ontario mid-September. They do not have a provincial mask mandate, only city-by-city by-law requirements. By that time it may feel weird to be without them but since we wear them to comply with requirements, it will be a nice break. Who knows - I may even put on lipstick again! We will visit Toronto, Ottawa and Niagara Falls; only Toronto currently requires masking. It is of interest to me that Ottawa, our nation's capital, does not require them.
https://www.rebelnews.com/ontario_government_contradicts_local_mask_mandates

I think That Ottawa does now https://www.ottawapublichealth.ca/e...masks.aspx#Where-am-I-required-to-wear-a-mask

 

[ronandannette]

I think That Ottawa does now https://www.ottawapublichealth.ca/e...masks.aspx#Where-am-I-required-to-wear-a-mask

Oh well, no lipstick for me in Ottawa then, I guess.

 

[hdrolfe]

Oh well, no lipstick for me in Ottawa then, I guess.

Yeah I don't worry about my lipstick any more, but I do try and match my mask to my outfit (Ottawa resident)

 

[bavaria]

Illuminations is a 'thing' in much of western Europe, where they project lights/music/shows on old buildings. Karin, I went to the one in 's-Hertogenbosch a few years ago, which was amazing. (Was the 500th anniversary to den Bosch and I ended up going twice to the exhibit and the illumination)

This year the Berlin Illuminations are a month earlier and seem to be bigger and better than ever. I'm so glad that common sense prevails, as this is exactly the kind of open air art/social event which should be held.
https://festival-of-lights.de/en/das-festival/programm/
I'm not sure if I already posted this, but Berlin was also doing 'courtyard movies' where they have one person agree to have the movie company set up in their bathroom, and they project on a wall for the entire apartment house to see. Knalle, a local Berlin popcorn company, was even handing out free bags which are normally 4 or 5 Euro.
https://www.theguardian.com/film/gallery/2020/may/07/windowflick-berlin-screenings-in-pictures
This is exactly the kind of thing which cities should be planning and encouraging, to find alternate ways for people to entertain themselves safely in the coming months.

 

[bavaria]

This is interesting and at times painful reading:
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/co...k/news-story/b9246d82046820000686a18ec03e2580
I do worry that I'm sounding like a COVID denier, which I am not, but I am really questioning lately and it seems like some of the posters on this thread are as well the risk vs the actions. (And again, really tough to discuss without the US influence)

 

[Jrb1979]

This was one of the things I've been pondering, given our numbers since mask mandates have actually increased at a pace greater than in the last weeks of lock-down.

We are travelling to the province of Ontario mid-September. They do not have a provincial mask mandate, only city-by-city by-law requirements. By that time it may feel weird to be without them but since we wear them to comply with requirements, it will be a nice break. Who knows - I may even put on lipstick again! We will visit Toronto, Ottawa and Niagara Falls; only Toronto currently requires masking. It is of interest to me that Ottawa, our nation's capital, does not require them.
https://www.rebelnews.com/ontario_government_contradicts_local_mask_mandates

Sorry to burst your bubble but all of Niagara has mandatory masks.

 

[ronandannette]

Sorry to burst your bubble but all of Niagara has mandatory masks.

No need to be snide - if there is a mask mandate anywhere we go we will certainly conform to it. Niagara Falls wasn't included in the list of municipalities I googled which was from July 31.

This is interesting and at times painful reading:
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/co...k/news-story/b9246d82046820000686a18ec03e2580
I do worry that I'm sounding like a COVID denier, which I am not, but I am really questioning lately and it seems like some of the posters on this thread are as well the risk vs the actions. (And again, really tough to discuss without the US influence)

Any chance you can cut-and-paste that article? I can't get past the pay-wall.

 

[Karin1984]

Illuminations is a 'thing' in much of western Europe, where they project lights/music/shows on old buildings. Karin, I went to the one in 's-Hertogenbosch a few years ago, which was amazing. (Was the 500th anniversary to den Bosch and I ended up going twice to the exhibit and the illumination)

I have never visited one, but there are several cities in NL who have a yearly illumination type show, Amsterdam and Eindhoven spring to mind, where Eindhoven is more of an artsy festival.

This is interesting and at times painful reading:
https://www.theaustralian.com.au/co...k/news-story/b9246d82046820000686a18ec03e2580
I do worry that I'm sounding like a COVID denier, which I am not, but I am really questioning lately and it seems like some of the posters on this thread are as well the risk vs the actions. (And again, really tough to discuss without the US influence)

Yeah, can't read it either.
But I think that's the trend we see now in Europe. Yesterday we had several newsarticles questioning if now the cure is not hurting more than the disease.

I think what happened in the beginning was that because it was a new disease and we hadn't one in Europe for a long time that was so devastating, it paralyzed everyone, including governments. Governments had to go into war-mode to battle this to make sure the hospitals weren't overloaded. Now that we have a mutation of the virus that is not as bad in case of hospitalizations/deaths, it is a completely different situation than in March/April. But governments are scared to death to loosen the reigns because 'what if it comes back worse' and other 'what if'-s.

It's like with the national railroad company or airline in the Netherlands. When the weather gets bad in winter, they can decide to cancel trains/flights on forehand, announce it so everyone knows, and with the time and space the cancelled trains/flights give, they can manage better the traffic that is still going. However.... when the weather arrives, but isn't as bad as they predicted, everyone complains that the companies are being overly cautious. The thing is, people do not see what could have happened if the weather was as bad as predicted.
People underestimate risks, especially when they themselves are concerned ('that happens to other people, that would never happen to me'). Governments cannot think like that. They have to think of the worst case scenario, but it's hard to explain that to people who can underestimate risks.

 

[bavaria]

No need to be snide - if there is a mask mandate anywhere we go we will certainly conform to it. Niagara Falls wasn't included in the list of municipalities I googled which was from July 31.

Any chance you can cut-and-paste that article? I can't get past the pay-wall.

Sorry try this? I added some interesting quotes below. Apologies for the lack of cut and paste skills!
https://archive.vn/UUaOx

Franklin Templeton, a US investment manager, recently conducted a survey of Americans that left its chief investment officer stunned. About 70 per cent of all age groups said they were worried about contracting “serious health effects” from the virus, a “staggering discrepancy with the actual mortality data”. “For people aged 18 to 24 the share of whose worried about health consequences is 400 times higher than their share of total COVID deaths, for 25 to 34 it’s 90 times,” Sonal Desai said.

As growth of cases slows, as it has everywhere, many Victorians will attribute the decline wholly to the lockdown, to the wisdom of the state government, a classic logical fallacy but politically powerful.

Looking at data from 23 countries and 25 US states, economists from the US Federal Reserve and the University of California last month found growth rates of coronavirus deaths surged and dissipated rapidly everywhere, notwithstanding government policy.
“Given that transmission rates for COVID-19 fell virtually everywhere in the world during this early pandemic period, we are concerned that studies may substantially overstate the role of government-mandated shutdowns in reducing disease transmission,” they wrote.

Roy Morgan poll last week found 72 per cent supported Victoria’s 8pm to 5am curfew and 5km restriction. Three-quarters said restaurants, cafes and pubs shouldn’t be able to serve food even with social distancing. Almost 90 per cent wanted masks to be compulsory “when leaving home”. Almost 60 per cent wanted it to remain illegal to visit immediate family. Until this year, the World Health Organisation and senior disease experts advised against all of these actions to combat viral epidemics.

Meanwhile on Monday, after another 73 new cases were announced in Victoria, Australian Deputy Chief Medical Officer Nick Coatsworth said it was unlikely the second six-week lockdown would end on September 13

 

[godisney14]

Interesting survey data across countries of peoples’ opinion to a vaccine.

https://www.ipsos.com/sites/default...-survey-for-wef-august-2020-plus-08312020.pdf

 

[elphaba91]

More improvement from Victoria, with 2 days in a row of the entire country being in double digits! Unfortunately still more deaths; yesterday they added several from nursing homes that hadn’t previously been counted (for reasons I still don’t quite understand). People are now getting very anxious about wanting a plan for the reopening, which we will apparently get on Sunday. Personally I would rather we stay locked down for a bit longer (particularly as there are school holidays in a few weeks) rather than risk another outbreak.

It was also just announced this evening (but very expected) that the AFL Grand Final will be held in Queensland rather than Melbourne and in the evening for the first time ever. Australian rules football is a big part of Victorian culture - the AFL actually started as the VFL and 8 out of 18 teams are in Victoria - so it’s quite the blow to lose it to another state, although should mean they are allowed a crowd of some sort.

 

[penn19]

Sorry try this? I added some interesting quotes below. Apologies for the lack of cut and paste skills!
https://archive.vn/UUaOx

Great article. And good to see some perspective written from outside the US

 

[Karin1984]

We had a press conference in NL again. Nothing really remarkable or new measures. They are concerned about test capacity, we are going to buy more from Germany. We are in a stabile position where hospitalizations and infections are concerned, however now that everyone is back from holidays and back in school we have to stay vigilance.
The Prime Minister acknowledged that there are people who have different views on the measures than the government and that there is not one truth, however figures will always be the basis of all decisions. He wants to communicate with these people (anything to avoid protests) through live chat sessions.

- First vaccins to be expected early 2021. It will be determined which groups will get the vaccins first (My guess is hospital staff and other medical staff)
Today an article appeared about the vaccin the Dutch work on with other EU labs, Johnson & Johnson. 135 Dutch people will participate in the testing. Within a day hundreds of people have applied, they will have 2 groups: 18 - 55 and 65+. First people will get it end of September and the test subjects will be tracked for a year. Other test subjects for this will come from Spain and Germany.

- The app they are developing & testing will only be released nationally when there is more test capacity.
Generally the rule will be: people will only get tested when they have symptoms. However, when we have the app and we have an indication who got in contact with an infected person, these people should get tested as well without having symptoms. For this we need more test capacity.

- We are not going to divide society in two.
There were some suggestions that to basically 'lock up' the old and the weak to protect them from the virus. But the thing is, young people do not only interact with young people. So, not going to do that as it probably wouldn't help a lot.

- There will be weekly testing in nursing homes when there is an outbreak.
Also there will be a mask mandate inside nursing homes when there is a regional outbreak (so not necessarily in the nursing home)

- No date mentioned for nightclubs and dance halls to reopen.
This is one of the industries not back in business yet.

- More regional information.
Starting today our national dashboard will get more regional figures

 

[bavaria]

The puzzle of falling mortality
https://www.welt.de/wissenschaft/pl...as-Raetsel-um-die-sinkende-Sterblichkeit.html

The number of infections has increased again for weeks. However, this increase is not reflected in deaths or intensive care unit utilization. Some suspect the reason for the changed test strategy - but it is not that simple.

Imagine it's Corona and hardly anyone dies. In an exaggerated way, this is a global phenomenon that scientists are puzzling over. For weeks, more and more cases of corona infections have been registered in Germany and other countries. At the same time, however, there are nowhere near as many deaths as there should be after the experience with the first wave.

More than 1000 new infections were reported to Germany 18 days ago, but currently only one to six people per day die from Covid-19. For comparison: Even in the first week of May there were around 1000 new infections every day in Germany, but 18 days later several hundred corona deaths were counted every day.

Basically more testing of people with few or no symptoms, cases are younger, virus may have mutated, better treatment, lower virus dose. I strongly recommend to turn on 'translate' and read the article as it is showing exactly what we are saying that even in Spain with thousands of cases a day, people are not dying anymore.....