DVC Club Level and Home Resort Survey

[dioxide45]

But, they wouldn’t be adding declared units from RIV into the trust…they would take all the undeclared units and make them a “new” element of RIV that isn’t being sold as a deeded ownership interest…the contracts say that DVD doesn’t have to add more rooms beyond the initial declaration.

I was a little unsure how DVC deeds and the legal description was stated so I had to look at one. They are really no differen than most weeks based timeshare except that the percentage of undivided interest is based on the number of points compared to the number of points for an entire unit where weeks based timeshare lists a unit and week number along with the undivided interest percentage.

Given this, they way I understand it, and if it works like other trust based timeshare systems (DVC isn't reinventing the wheel here). I believe they would still have to declare the units to the resort HOA but then they would convey the deeds for each unit to the trust instead of selling them to individual buyers. So you may see a deed that reads something like this;

An undivided 0.98% interest in Unit 12A of Disney's Riviera Resort....
....Purchasers Ownership Interest shall be symbolized as xxx Home Resort Vacation points.

xxx would be whatever the total number of points that DVC can sell for that unit.

They could theoretically put multiple units on a single deed or even an entire building of units. This would save them on recording costs associated with the trust conveyances. There would also be a trust document recorded (hopefully in Orange County FL) where they would declare the number of points being conveyed to the trust as well as the total number of points in the trust after that conveyance.

There is also theoretically nothing stopping them from conveying deeds that they get back for any resort to the trust. They just convey x.xx% of unit ## at whatever DVC resort they got back. If they think they need to convey entire units, this could cause issues at OKW when it expires as I am sure some units have owners with 2042 deeds and others with 2057 deeds. I doubt there are any entire units sitting with all 2042 deeds.

 

[dioxide45]

I think this overcomplicates it. I don’t see why the trust can’t acquire points in fully declared resorts as well. It’s timeshare industry standard, and the language DVC uses seems pretty standard compared to other systems (like Marriott, Wyndham, etc.) that have similar systems and are easily able to add points from “sold out” resorts by acquiring them through deedbacks, ROFR & foreclosures.

Yeah, I mentioned the same in my prior post. No reason they can't take deeds into the trust just like other timeshare systems.

 

[dioxide45]

Please elaborate on why you think it would be a “HUGE mistake to convert”?

It would mean the loss of a sense of personal ownership? Worse 7-11 month experience? Loss of overall value?

Generally "upgrading" into a trust based ownership isn't a good idea. You lose out on a true home resort priority because you are competing against a lot more owners for those truely prime dates and resorts. Maintenance fees can also be higher than you might find at a different individual home resort. This is because of two reasons. They put higher maintenance fee resorts into the trust (think HHI and VB) and the trust also has an administrative cost layer associated with it. So there are effectively fees on top of fees which drive the cost per points up a few percentage points. I would expect initial fees for such a trust to be in the range of OKW.

 

[emchen]

1. You'd go from owning an actual deed to owning a promise and air.
2. There's no guarantee that these points would be as generous a structure for these rooms as the other structure existing owners have.
3. You'd be paying dues that will need to cover the costs at the most expensive properties.
4. You're in the soup bidding with everyone else on all the properties in there.
5. Disney wouldn't be exploring this unless they thought it was a better deal for them than the current system.

among other reasons.

As a hypothetical, imagine that the existing DVC system converted to a trust system suddenly. Only using this as an example because of how familiar it is, I'm in no way suggesting this will happen.

A Trust system would result in many hard-to-book-at-11m rooms becoming extremely-hard-to-book-at-11m rooms (BWV SV Studios, RIV SV Studios, CCV Studios, CCV/BRV around Christmas, AKV Value/Club, VGF Deluxe Studios, etc.). Same finite number of rooms, but likely way more demand for the already-favored rooms.

Imagine you could book at any resort at 11m, even ones you don't own, which rooms would you book that you'd never be able to normally get at 7m? Now imagine how many other people think similarly

VGC would go from usually-casual between 11-7m to crazy at 11m almost every day.

On balance, this would mean other categories would get easier to book, but they'd be the ones that already on the easy side to book, so somewhat moot.

There would also be a 'mixing' of dues, so if you owned at resorts that are low dues, you likely end up paying more.

There is some upside for resorts like AUL, where dues are high and travel cadence may not justify ownership for many, AUL-via-Trust could be more attractive than OG-AUL ownership.

But the more I noodle on it, the more concerned I grow about a Trust system for my needs.

Thank you guys for detailing the drawbacks. I see how conversion to trust points may dilute value on a net basis.

I own at 6 resorts, with slighty >50% of my points being AUL subsidized for SAPs.

For me, conversion would have to be selective, and my intuition is to convert only high-“all-in cost per point per year” contracts, eg. VDH and RIV. The fact my RIV is fixed week (FW) complicates that calculation.

BTW, is there existing examples of FW incorporated into timeshare trust systems?

 

[MerlinandtheMouse]

No but actually this is me right now.

Now I might be missing somethings, and I’ll tell you what, I’m definitely missing a lot of things, but this sounds like an actual dumpster fire idea for anyone but Disney, right? What am I missing?

Here’s a few off the cuff questions of the 100 or so zooming around my brain right now: Aside from what seems like will be a really stressful 11mo “advantage” at all resorts that are included in the trust, is there any true benefit for buyers? Will the price per point be very low to begin or similar to what it is currently? Do the point charts remain or can they make their own point charts? Do you think, along with the creation of this trust and the resorts that will go into it, they’ll also build resorts that will allow us to purchase deeded interests as we do now? Or once something like this goes live, there’s no going back to the current way of DVC purchases? Why do this at all?

If you can answer any of these, please explain it to me like I’m 5 years old TIA

 

[zavandor]

As a hypothetical, imagine that the existing DVC system converted to a trust system suddenly. Only using this as an example because of how familiar it is, I'm in no way suggesting this will happen.

A Trust system would result in many hard-to-book-at-11m rooms becoming extremely-hard-to-book-at-11m rooms (BWV SV Studios, RIV SV Studios, CCV Studios, CCV/BRV around Christmas, AKV Value/Club, VGF Deluxe Studios, etc.). Same finite number of rooms, but likely way more demand for the already-favored rooms.

Imagine you could book at any resort at 11m, even ones you don't own, which rooms would you book that you'd never be able to normally get at 7m? Now imagine how many other people think similarly

VGC would go from usually-casual between 11-7m to crazy at 11m almost every day.

On balance, this would mean other categories would get easier to book, but they'd be the ones that already on the easy side to book, so somewhat moot.

There would also be a 'mixing' of dues, so if you owned at resorts that are low dues, you likely end up paying more.

There is some upside for resorts like AUL, where dues are high and travel cadence may not justify ownership for many, AUL-via-Trust could be more attractive than OG-AUL ownership.

But the more I noodle on it, the more concerned I grow about a Trust system for my needs.

I agree with that you write, but only from the point of view of someone who wants to stay only in certain room types or resorts. The "buy where you want to stay" members.
For members who buy SAP, a trust could be a good thing. They aren't upset if they cannot book BWV standard, because those never arrive at 7 months.
But buying into the trust requires reasonable expectations, which someone who buy SAP usually has.

 

[Cfabar1]

Now I might be missing somethings, and I’ll tell you what, I’m definitely missing a lot of things, but this sounds like an actual dumpster fire idea for anyone but Disney, right?

yes, that's right.

What am I missing?

not much in my view.

Here’s a few off the cuff questions of the 100 or so zooming around my brain right now: Aside from what seems like will be a really stressful 11mo “advantage” at all resorts that are included in the trust, is there any true benefit for buyers?

The benefit, I suppose, would be you'd have an advantage for the points in the trust over legacy owners.

Will the price per point be very low to begin or similar to what it is currently?

I'd imagine Disney would keep prices in line with where they have been. They're not exploring this to make less money I can assure you.

Do the point charts remain or can they make their own point charts?

Could go either way.

Do you think, along with the creation of this trust and the resorts that will go into it, they’ll also build resorts that will allow us to purchase deeded interests as we do now?

My guess is some resorts will be hybrid - those that have been developed and have undeclared inventory for example. I doubt for new builds they'd keep deeded interests as a purchase option.

Or once something like this goes live, there’s no going back to the current way of DVC purchases?

Anything is possible, but I doubt Disney would want to.

Why do this at all?

I can see why it would be profitable for Disney:
- Undesirable resorts or points they can't sell will be absorbed here. Want the new shiny resort - you've got to pay the dues for the one you couldn't care in the least about.
- Not having to create a new POS every time a new resort is created, but throwing it in the existing organization
- If they can add existing inventory, it might open the door to repricing older resorts higher in the trust system
- I'd imagine they can play around with when contracts expire. They might market this as "pro consumer" because now you can get access for 10 years or 20 years instead of being tied down for 50. Expect Disney to put some sort of positive spin on this, whether it's what I wrote, or something else.
- Many other major companies (Marriott, Hyatt, etc.) have switched to this model, so Disney probably has case studies and history they can point to that show it will make the company more money than the old way.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

View attachment 816655
No but actually this is me right now.

Now I might be missing somethings, and I’ll tell you what, I’m definitely missing a lot of things, but this sounds like an actual dumpster fire idea for anyone but Disney, right? What am I missing?

Here’s a few off the cuff questions of the 100 or so zooming around my brain right now: Aside from what seems like will be a really stressful 11mo “advantage” at all resorts that are included in the trust, is there any true benefit for buyers? Will the price per point be very low to begin or similar to what it is currently? Do the point charts remain or can they make their own point charts? Do you think, along with the creation of this trust and the resorts that will go into it, they’ll also build resorts that will allow us to purchase deeded interests as we do now? Or once something like this goes live, there’s no going back to the current way of DVC purchases? Why do this at all?

If you can answer any of these, please explain it to me like I’m 5 years old TIA

I think the biggest benefit to a trust based system would be to people who want to buy it resale. This is because a trust-based system necessarily couldn’t have resale restrictions (since they’re not points for a specific resort so you wouldn’t be able to restrict them to only a specific resort). Thus, although they’d likely have high maintenance fees, if a resale buyer bought them as essentially sleep around points, not expecting to be able to use them very well at 11 months for in-demand rooms, then they could be an inexpensive and beneficial product. That’s why I’m excited for this offering.

As to your question about “there’s no going back to the regular way of DVC purchase?” No, I don’t think that’s going to be the case. I think regular contracts tied to a specific resort will still be sold. These things can be sold in parallel. Most resort systems with a trust-based option also have the regular deeded resort option for sale as well. It’s just another way to market/sell points.

 

[BeachClub2014]

Interesting stuff. It'll be fascinating to see how this plays out.

Could the Trust rules be set up to prohibit members from renting their points to another party? If so, that becomes a real game changer.

 

[wiihoo888]

I think the biggest benefit to a trust based system would be to people who want to buy it resale. This is because a trust-based system necessarily couldn’t have resale restrictions (since they’re not points for a specific resort so you wouldn’t be able to restrict them to only a specific resort). Thus, although they’d likely have high maintenance fees, if a resale buyer bought them as essentially sleep around points, not expecting to be able to use them very well at 11 months for in-demand rooms, then they could be an inexpensive and beneficial product. That’s why I’m excited for this offering.

As to your question about “there’s no going back to the regular way of DVC purchase?” No, I don’t think that’s going to be the case. I think regular contracts tied to a specific resort will still be sold. These things can be sold in parallel. Most resort systems with a trust-based option also have the regular deeded resort option for sale as well. It’s just another way to market/sell points.

I’d honestly like if they asked for your advice in setting this up. Not sure that I would want to buy into a points system, but the setup (as you are describing it could be) sounds intriguing and not terribly scary to is current owners

 

[ehh]

I agree with that you write, but only from the point of view of someone who wants to stay only in certain room types or resorts. The "buy where you want to stay" members.
For members who buy SAP, a trust could be a good thing. They aren't upset if they cannot book BWV standard, because those never arrive at 7 months.
But buying into the trust requires reasonable expectations, which someone who buy SAP usually has.

Excellent point! My angle on all this is from my DVC usage, and I have 5 home resorts to 'guarantee' that I get the rooms I want. While I don't usually book room categories that are gone right at 11m, most of my room categories don't make it to 7m, either.

I do have some SAP, but even those are for specific rooms that almost always make it to 7m (e.g., CCV Cabins).

And I think your point about a SAP type of owner benefitting from a Trust is also a good answer for @MerlinandtheMouse's question:

View attachment 816655
No but actually this is me right now.

Now I might be missing somethings, and I’ll tell you what, I’m definitely missing a lot of things, but this sounds like an actual dumpster fire idea for anyone but Disney, right? What am I missing?

Here’s a few off the cuff questions of the 100 or so zooming around my brain right now: Aside from what seems like will be a really stressful 11mo “advantage” at all resorts that are included in the trust, is there any true benefit for buyers? Will the price per point be very low to begin or similar to what it is currently? Do the point charts remain or can they make their own point charts? Do you think, along with the creation of this trust and the resorts that will go into it, they’ll also build resorts that will allow us to purchase deeded interests as we do now? Or once something like this goes live, there’s no going back to the current way of DVC purchases? Why do this at all?

If you can answer any of these, please explain it to me like I’m 5 years old TIA

To @zavandor's point about SAP, a Trust system will benefit guests who are less picky about their accommodations and could de-stress the planning for an owner that would normally be booking a mid-popularity room category.

For example, a family might know they want to visit WDW every year-ish, but don't want to be tied down to a specific resort (or don't have enough experience with the resorts to even know which they want), plus occasional trips to DL and AUL. No longer would the family be buying the only active WDW resort being sold by DVC and then having potentially stressful 7m booking periods for other WDW resorts and DL/AUL trips, all of those could now be booked at 11m (just might not get the most sought after rooms).

From a marketing perspective, a Trust system will go great as every resort is your home resort.

This is especially good for maybe some more controversial resorts they're going to build. What's been announced for CFW is 350 cabins, no variety at all, and that may be unattractive to lock into for a lot of potential buyers. But if they're buying into CFW+a bunch of other options, suddenly that commitment is 'just' financial and not to a specific room. And who knows what else they might build in the future.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

Interesting stuff. It'll be fascinating to see how this plays out.

Could the Trust rules be set up to prohibit members from renting their points to another party? If so, that becomes a real game changer.

Boy I hope that’s possible, otherwise the commercial renters with bots are going to grab up all the peak 11 months availability leaving nothing for people who bought to use it personally.

Edit: Actually, I don’t think they need to even write it this way. Their existing rules allow them to crack down on renting. They just need to do it.

 

[wiihoo888]

Excellent point! My angle on all this is from my DVC usage, and I have 5 home resorts to 'guarantee' that I get the rooms I want. While I don't usually book room categories that are gone right at 11m, most of my room categories don't make it to 7m, either.

I do have some SAP, but even those are for specific rooms that almost always make it to 7m (e.g., CCV Cabins).

And I think your point about a SAP type of owner benefitting from a Trust is also a good answer for @MerlinandtheMouse's question:

To @zavandor's point about SAP, a Trust system will benefit guests who are less picky about their accommodations and could de-stress the planning for an owner that would normally be booking a mid-popularity room category.

For example, a family might know they want to visit WDW every year-ish, but don't want to be tied down to a specific resort (or don't have enough experience with the resorts to even know which they want), plus occasional trips to DL and AUL. No longer would the family be buying the only active WDW resort being sold by DVC and then having potentially stressful 7m booking periods for other WDW resorts and DL/AUL trips, all of those could now be booked at 11m (just might not get the most sought after rooms).

From a marketing perspective, a Trust system will go great as every resort is your home resort.

This is especially good for maybe some more controversial resorts they're going to build. What's been announced for CFW is 350 cabins, no variety at all, and that may be unattractive to lock into for a lot of potential buyers. But if they're buying into CFW+a bunch of other options, suddenly that commitment is 'just' financial and not to a specific room. And who knows what else they might build in the future.

All good points….and makes me appreciate my home points that much more

Geesh, the past few days have been a whirlwind! If this all works out as some are speculating, it actually sounds cool for those who would want to use trust points

 

[accm]

As someone who bought points where I want to stay, I’m not excited by the idea of DVD moving towards this trust system.

My question is, if they include resorts outside of WDW, is there a chance someone might be blocked out of going on a trip to WDW? That would lead to some pretty unhappy “owners” (or whatever they’ll be called) if their only booking option now is AUL.

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

As someone who bought points where I want to stay, I’m not excited by the idea of DVD moving towards this trust system.

My question is, if they include resorts outside of WDW, is there a chance someone might be blocked out of going on a trip to WDW? That would lead to some pretty unhappy “owners” (or whatever they’ll be called) if their only booking option now is AUL.

No, because trust owners would have the same 7 month ability to trade into other resorts at WDW as everyone else. It would be the equivalent of an Aulani owner trying to book into WDW at 7 months, there’s always going to be something somewhere, but you might be stuck with OKW/SSR.

Edit: I suppose that a studio could occasionally be tricky during the most in-demand times. A lot will depend on whether (as I put in my post above) Disney does something about spec-renting.

 

[Dobermanns]

Thank you for explaining from different POVs. I think I have a better understanding of the concept of Trust system and also the potential benefits and drawbacks to Trust owners.

As a proponent of buy where you want to stay, I have 9 home resorts and generally book right at 11-months. Am I wrong to assume that the Trust really won’t impact me too much, because the Trust owners can ONLY book up to the total number of points the Trust owns AND have sold to Trust members at each resort? Meaning for say VGC, DVD currently doesn’t own that much compared to the total own by deeded owners, so it doesn’t matter that if 90% of Trust owners want VGC, only say a handful will succeed? So the competition is really amongst the Trust owners, not with deeded owners? For resorts with undeclared points like VDH and RIV, deeded owners currently can book from declared inventory only, so adding the undeclared to the Trust, and having Trust owners be able to book up to the limit the Trust owns and have sold should not matter because proportionally it’s the same.

 

[ehh]

As someone who bought points where I want to stay, I’m not excited by the idea of DVD moving towards this trust system.

My question is, if they include resorts outside of WDW, is there a chance someone might be blocked out of going on a trip to WDW? That would lead to some pretty unhappy “owners” (or whatever they’ll be called) if their only booking option now is AUL.

Speculatively, because we don't know what points/inventory are included in the Trust, I think it's unlikely there's any more risk of being blocked from WDW than there is at the 'worst' WDW resorts (in this regard).

And even then it's not a full block, more of a points budget block where an owner may only have bought enough points for a Studio for a week, and now all the Studios are gone.

This already happens at CCV from mid-Nov and later each year, where it's really hard to book Studios at 11m. If you're looking for early Dec and miss it at 11m, there's also little help coming at 7m as even SSR/OKW Studios are gone by then, too. Your options are to travel at another time, get a bigger room for fewer nights, or get lucky with stalking/waitlist.

I wonder what kind of transparency DVC will have about the Trust's ownership inventory. Early on, Trust points might be like 50% CFW, 40% AUL, and then 1% each of a bunch of other resorts...and that could be pretty unappealing.

 

[ehh]

Thank you for explaining from different POVs. I think I have a better understanding of the concept of Trust system and also the potential benefits and drawbacks to Trust owners.

As a proponent of buy where you want to stay, I have 9 home resorts and generally book right at 11-months. Am I wrong to assume that the Trust really won’t impact me too much, because the Trust owners can ONLY book up to the total number of points the Trust owns AND have sold to Trust members at each resort? Meaning for say VGC, DVD currently doesn’t own that much compared to the total own by deeded owners, so it doesn’t matter that if 90% of Trust owners want VGC, only say a handful will succeed? So the competition is really amongst the Trust owners, not with deeded owners? For resorts with undeclared points like VDH and RIV, deeded owners can book from declared inventory, so adding the undeclared to the Trust, and having Trust owners be able to book up to the limit the Trust owns and have sold should not matter because proportionally it’s the same.

What you described in bold (and after) is my understanding, as well. As a many-resort owner (5 and growing), I feel comfortable with my standing, even as a Trust is introduced.

There's nuanced logistical challenges in determining how much inventory to put into circulation based on points owned via deed vs. via Trust, but on the whole what you've described is how I think it'll work.

 

[Dobermanns]

What you described in bold (and after) is my understanding, as well. As a many-resort owner (5 and growing), I feel comfortable with my standing, even as a Trust is introduced.

There's nuanced logistical challenges in determining how much inventory to put into circulation based on points owned via deed vs. via Trust, but on the whole what you've described is how I think it'll work.

Thank you!
Thinking about it a bit more, the additional completion will be at 7-months at VDH and RIV when now all resale Trust owners can book. I do have RIV resale. Guess I better book something prior to 7-months, lol…

 

[AnnaKristoff2013]

As a proponent of buy where you want to stay, I have 9 home resorts and generally book right at 11-months. Am I wrong to assume that the Trust really won’t impact me too much, because the Trust owners can ONLY book up to the total number of points the Trust owns AND have sold to Trust members at each resort?

This is correct. That’s how the trust-based timeshare systems currently in existence (ie: Club Wyndham Access) work.