Caution: Wait times low crowd days

[whiporee]

Wow. We were at MK on 4/29 and that was definitely not our experience. We had a 10 min wait at BTMR at 9:00 which in the past had been a walk on but Splash was down so, I think totally expected. They only had one side open but that would be expected at RD too. I don't expect Disney to have both sides open when the wait is 10 mins at opening. We rode Pirates at about 10:30 am and it was a 15 min wait. Maybe the issue with PotC in the evening was the fact that the ride was down for several hours in the afternoon. We saw people getting walked off it around 3. They said they had been stuck for half an hour. We had paper FPs for it were trying to use and it wasn't up yet at when we checked before dinner at 5:30. With that kind of down time the evening probably backed up with anytime FPs.

They had Space open on both sides by 9:30 am on 5/5. They had both sides of Pirates loading during the afternoon on 5/5.

i did not see any egregious capacity cutting on Disney's part but we also did a lot of FPs. We also felt like it was definitely not crowded but there were still a lot of people in the parks. I didn't look at the crowds on the pathways and then the wait times and feel they were disproportionally unbalanced. We had a great time and felt like we didn't wait much at all. But I did see a lot of late afternoon ride times of 1 hour with plentiful FPs for those same rides readily available on the app (yes I'm looking at you, TT) and wondered why people didn't even check.

I think it feels like there are more people in the park because there are fewer people in actual lines. That's a side effect of FP+ -- the average overall waiting time is probably down if you factor in the time you spend actually waiting for your rides during a day. Since a large percentage of ride goers are able to avoid a standby line, lot of people (who used to be waiting in a line) are now free to be doing other things like buying stuff or getting in the way of strollers until their FP time. FP also makes it easier to get in and out of rides faster than before, giving them more time to kill, and more time to spend in the "open."

Just a theory.

 

[whiporee]

Interesting ideas...thanks for the input.

DH just reminded of another odd occurrence same day, 4/29 @ MK. We always reserve PPO BOG to line up early for 7 dwarfs roller coaster. This time we got in line in same line up spot after breakfast, were walked at same time as usual to attraction queue, but something different happened compared to our usual experience--the CM who led the line through the queue kept stopping the line & waiting even though it was after 9:00AM...many in line shot him a dirty look & he just kept a devilish grin on his face the whole time, but kept on shuffling. We were in front line but didn't get on the ride prior to or even right at opening.

It was weird.

They were throttling lines all day long.

Wow. What a mean spirited jerk.

Or maybe there was a problem with the ride as they were getting ready for the first guests of the day. Feel free to choose whichever answer you feel fits best.

 

[mshanson3121]

Again, the numbers say a five percent reduction in capacity during the week, none during weekends/busy times. No evidence of significant staff reductions. No evidence that this is a policy any different than its been in past years. No reason at all -- none -- for them to purposely make slow times seem busier. That makes no logical sense in any manner other than plain cruelty. With the exceptions of the new TSL stuff, FoP and 7DMT, most FPs are fairly easy to get even on the same day.

If you don't think Disney's a value, then you don't think Disney's a value. But the things you are stating as fact are nothing more than board and DIS supposition, and many of that is disproven by other's experiences.

Not even remotely disproven by other's experiences. Her experiences are just as valid as anyone else's, whether you like it or not.

 

[whiporee]

Not even remotely disproven by other's experiences. Her experiences are just as valid as anyone else's, whether you like it or not.

The posts immediately on top and immediately on bottom contradicted the statement. I think that takes away the idea of "without a doubt," don't you? I know you disagree with the premise, but it's hardly a given that poster's position is universal and unchallengeable.

The actual evidence collected about this suggests something different that the narrative of: "Disney is short staffing and reducing capacity in order to purposefully increase wait times and save money." But it keeps getting repeated even though the actual data collected about ride capacity shows a small reduction, and there's no evidence at all of intentional staff reduction beyond seasonal norms. Now, you can make the argument that seasonal norms don't apply anymore and that's a fair criticism. But the unfairness and potential inaccuracy of assigning them malicious or greedy intent without evidence is the kind of thing that ought to be pointed out. At least it seems that way to me.

 

[mshanson3121]

The posts immediately on top and immediately on bottom contradicted the statement. I think that takes away the idea of "without a doubt," don't you? I know you disagree with the premise, but it's hardly a given that poster's position is universal and unchallengeable.

The actual evidence collected about this suggests something different that the narrative of: "Disney is short staffing and reducing capacity in order to purposefully increase wait times and save money." But it keeps getting repeated even though the actual data collected about ride capacity shows a small reduction, and there's no evidence at all of intentional staff reduction beyond seasonal norms. Now, you can make the argument that seasonal norms don't apply anymore and that's a fair criticism. But the unfairness and potential inaccuracy of assigning them malicious or greedy intent without evidence is the kind of thing that ought to be pointed out. At least it seems that way to me.

Lol. Yeah okay whatever you say. You're the biggest apologist on this board. Not wasting my time further.

 

[whiporee]

Lol. Yeah okay whatever you say. You're the biggest apologist on this board. Not wasting my time further.

I feel as though that's the right decision for both of us.

 

[GADisneyDad14]

Guys, just a reminder this is a discussion forum. Continued arguing and name calling will result in a closed thread. Thanks.

 

[shortster]

I was there the same time period as OP (4/29-5/4) and I did not witness any of those things. SM was running both tracks, no issues loading PoC (every boat as loaded and both sides were being used), BTMRR also loading on both sides. Even Dumbo was running both sides and there was NO ONE in line. I actually thought wait times were on the lower side and we were able to ride many rides standby. I'm not sure if we were in the parks different days and maybe that's the difference?

I was there at this same time too. I'm not a repeat Disney visitor, so I don't have any data for comparison - but wait times were lower than what I had anticipated. Granted, we had 2 days in each park so with 6 initial FP we could cover off the highest wait attractions. But on 4/29, we were in MK for rope drop and we did PoC and BTMRR with a 5 min wait maybe, if that? During an evening Epcot EMH, we were able to ride FEA (during Illuminations), and then Soarin, Test Track (single rider) and Mission:Space in about 90 minutes. That includes walking time! I was shocked.

Like I said - I don't have any Disney experience for comparison. Maybe things were even better and I never had the chance to experience it. I just know I have waited in much longer lines at Cedar Point, Kings Island, and other local amusement parks. The common advice many posters give held true for us - if you go in expecting crowds you'll be better prepared, and possibly pleasantly surprised.

 

[revdon64]

Again, the numbers say a five percent reduction in capacity during the week, none during weekends/busy times. No evidence of significant staff reductions. No evidence that this is a policy any different than its been in past years. No reason at all -- none -- for them to purposely make slow times seem busier. That makes no logical sense in any manner other than plain cruelty. With the exceptions of the new TSL stuff, FoP and 7DMT, most FPs are fairly easy to get even on the same day.

If you don't think Disney's a value, then you don't think Disney's a value. But the things you are stating as fact are nothing more than board and DIS supposition, and many of that is disproven by other's experiences.

You need not take my word for it. Go find the Dis Unplugged podcast in which they interviewed the guy that runs Touring Plans. He posted people at the exits of rides and counted the numbers coming off the ride. Knowing the hourly capacity of every ride, he documented reduced capacity during off seasons and it was well more than 5% (edit for context - in fact the number that Len Testa gave was 25%). It's not supposition, it's fact. You want to argue about it, go argue with him.
As far as reasons, I'll be the first to admit that I'm no actuarial nor am I a business manager. I can only guess at their reasons, but if I were to guess I'd say, saving money on staffing at lower attendance times based on resort occupancy... putting more people in the stores and eateries when they see longer lines than expected, which causes them to spend more money in the park... trending wait times upward in order to make guests consider buying upcharge exclusives like DAH, EMM, Dessert Parties, etc. I'm sure there are other reasons that might make sense, but as I said, that's not the business I'm in... I'm just spitballing.

 

[revdon64]

It's the March 6th Podcast.

 

[whiporee]

It's the March 6th Podcast.

Re-listen to the whole interview, not just the excerpts the DIS used.

Here's what he said on the thread discussing his podcast. Him, not me.

On Feb 16 we implemented a 5% capacity reduction assumption in our models, across all attractions.
and
I think the 20%-ish numbers were the extremes that illustrated the point. The smaller numbers were more common.
and
We were off Monday through Thursday substantially more than Friday through Sunday. I think I said on the podcast that we were idiots, but only on weekdays.

He also said the reason he looked into it was because his numbers had been off for January and wanted to explain it, which makes perfect sense. The DIS Podcast guys were the ones who assigned the nefarious plot behind it (and, I might add, pretty strongly misrepresented the data on the pod). Len was actually pretty blase except to explain why his projections had been so far off in January.

 

[Davey Jones II]

I would go with the TP numbers, because otherwise what you have is nothing but anecdotal evidence. And there is plenty of that to support any theory you may have. All TP came up with is an overall 5% reduction, which is pretty minimal. The rest is "one time on Space Mountain..." and "another time at People Mover..."

 

[lentesta]

We continue to count riders coming off rides in both WDW and DLR. We've seen almost no instances of rides running at less than 100% capacity in the past 70 days versus at the beginning of the year. In fact, we've *overestimated* Magic Kingdom crowds for the last few weeks, so we're moving our models back to original assumptions. We've hired more staff to keep counting, too.

My guess is that management tried to implement a cost-cutting project that didn't go as intended, and stopped.

We'll make raw wait-time data available for key attractions in each park, in case anyone wants to do their own analysis. Give us a couple of weeks for that.

Beyond that, we need to look at the frequency at which rides break down when they're run constantly at ~100%. It definitely affects touring plans - there are some rides, like Test Track, that are bad choices for first attraction of the day because of outages.

 

[PrincessWithABlaster]

You need not take my word for it. Go find the Dis Unplugged podcast in which they interviewed the guy that runs Touring Plans. He posted people at the exits of rides and counted the numbers coming off the ride. Knowing the hourly capacity of every ride, he documented reduced capacity during off seasons and it was well more than 5% (edit for context - in fact the number that Len Testa gave was 25%). It's not supposition, it's fact. You want to argue about it, go argue with him.
As far as reasons, I'll be the first to admit that I'm no actuarial nor am I a business manager. I can only guess at their reasons, but if I were to guess I'd say, saving money on staffing at lower attendance times based on resort occupancy... putting more people in the stores and eateries when they see longer lines than expected, which causes them to spend more money in the park... trending wait times upward in order to make guests consider buying upcharge exclusives like DAH, EMM, Dessert Parties, etc. I'm sure there are other reasons that might make sense, but as I said, that's not the business I'm in... I'm just spitballing.

I don't know why but the experience between Jan/Feb and May were totally different. Jan/Feb people came back saying it was the busiest they had ever seen it at that time, long lines, TP under-estimating the crowds by a lot, etc. This last week TP OVER-estimated the crowds most of the days (few people are complaining though ), other people besides me have posted that it wasn't crowded (which is of course subjective). This is our third time going this week in May and it felt like the lowest crowds, the lines seemed most manageable, and the TP numbers were the lowest. As someone else posted even evening EMH at Epcot was awesome. Soarin was walk in at 9:15. In the morning that day they had 3 theaters going by 9:45. It happened between our first and second ride - first was a 25 min wait and I had been watching the posted time go up while we waited. So when the sign said 15 when we got off, I asked the CM if it was true and he said yes. When we went down, sure enough, there were people in all 3 hallways.

I don't doubt that Disney does all of the things you suggested. I don't doubt Len's numbers - although PP is correct that the extended interview has more context and qualifiers on the amount of capacity reduction they saw. It could be that Disney feels they went too far in Jan/Feb. Or that they got 'caught' at it. Or who knows. But they extended hours more than I've seen in past Mays (which they would not do if they were trying to cut staffing to save money). And many rides were running at full capacity or running lower at times it would be expected. I think maybe right now everyone is expecting this to be the case so Everytime they see something that looks like throttling, that's what people jump to (understandably so). It just doesn't fit my experience last week. I'm not a Disney apologist - I do my share of complaining on this board. Some of the complaining I do is of the cynical variety. But I'm having a hard time complaining right now given how nice last week was. And one of the things that made it nice was low crowds and low waits.

Edited to say that it takes me forever to compose a post on my phone. Sorry for all the duplication between this and the previous post.

 

[MorgannesMom]

I would like to add one other contributing factor to the apparent lack of staff during the "slow" seasons. My daughter is going to be working at WDW as part of the Disney College Program (DCP) in August. DCP traditionally brings in and transitions out the DCP participants in May, August and January. As the old DCP participants transition out, new ones come in. The new ones must be trained. It takes them several weeks to get back up to speed. The DCP participants work many jobs such as QS meals, janitorial and life guarding to name just a few positions. It is my understanding that there as many as 7000 DCP. A change in the efficiency of park operations doesn't seem impossible when you think of that many new employees learning their jobs. They do try to stagger the arrivals/departures. I know for my daughter, she had a choice of one of 4 weeks in August to begin her program. The first week of the DCP program is general Disney training and also a bit slow for the arriving DCP participants, at the same time the departing DCP participants often get reduced work schedules during their last week - with the last two days they have no work at all. I can't imagine this is the sole reason for the apparent reduction of staff, but it is at least part of the story.

 

[mom2rtk]

I agree. I don't think this has anything to do with discouraging guests from going during slow times because the wait times will be the same no matter when you go. Disney has shown a pattern the last few years of doing the exact opposite - trying to encourage guests to spread out throughout the year by offering promos during traditionally slower times. Yet this strategy, if word were to get out to enough guests, would encourage the opposite. Why would Disney shoot themselves in the foot by discouraging guests to go during slow times while simultaneously encouraging them with promos?

No, I don't think this has anything to do with Disney trying to manipulate guests or crowd visits during certain times of the year. I suspect this all comes down to saving money on staffing - and lowering guest experience is just a by product which they hope will not be noticed by most visitors.

Yep. Sometimes the answer really is the most obvious one.

 

[SarahC97]

So, did Disney try to reduce ride capacity and staffing in January according to Len at Touring Plans? Because I was there in January and February and the waits were the worst I've ever experienced.

 

[tlmadden73]

I think "understaffing" is just the norm all throughout business.

For "Fast" food I have waited longer for my food (after ordering) at McDonalds or Wendys than I have at sit down restaurants. most places seems they have maybe 3-4 people total running the whole operation .. EVEN during the "lunch rush".

Compare that to Chick-Fil-A, that despite around the building drive thru lines and crowded lines inside, you rarely have to wait longer than 5 minutes for your food after ordering. You can just tell by looking in the back they are staffed WAY more than other places.

Blame it on greedy corporations, blame it on Obamacare forcing companies to pay for higher insurance packages (and thus making everyone part time), blame it on the technology -- companies are just trying to 'get by' with the least amount of staff available EVEN if it means a worse experience for the customer .. because we customers put up with it.

What gets me is why they would only fill every other vehicle at a ride like PP? What's the downside of people getting through the queue quickly?

 

[revdon64]

Here's what he said on the thread discussing his podcast. Him, not me.
On Feb 16 we implemented a 5% capacity reduction assumption in our models, across all attractions.
and I think the 20%-ish numbers were the extremes that illustrated the point. The smaller numbers were more common.
and We were off Monday through Thursday substantially more than Friday through Sunday. I think I said on the podcast that we were idiots, but only on weekdays.
He also said the reason he looked into it was because his numbers had been off for January and wanted to explain it

Hmmm, and when was my last visit? When was the worst experience I've ever had at Disney? Yeah, that would be January 2018. So, maybe I just got an unlucky coincidence? Sure, but I don't think that the number of bad experiences that people have had being on the rise is a coincidence. There's a reason. Maybe it's not short staffing, but there's a downward trend in what WDW offers in guest value now compared to six, eight, or ten years ago. That's no coincidence.

 

[TheSouthernBelle]

Traveling to WDW the last 17 years, a few times each year both during busy & historically slow times--never seen this before:

MK 4/29:

PP 45 min wait @ rope drop, not loading every vehicle, then switching to loading every vehicle, then back again.

POTC 30 min wait 1 hr until park closing. One sole cast member was counting off & assigning guests to boat rows, then he would push through guests in row one to open gates to let guests board & then close gates. Then he'd walk back to the main line & start assigning guests to rows again...

I'm I missing something? This seems bizarre.

I wouldn't recommend attending WDW during slower times if they aren't going to properly staff their rides!!!

Not sure they staff correctly at busy times either. We were there over spring break, March 11 this year and the people mover had a wait, the CM loaded one section on every train and we were the only group on our train, completely empty, so so silly, WHY?!?! This makes no sense. I can't find a single reason why CM would be advised to do this. At first I thought well it's a holiday and kids are out and there's cheer all sorts of crowds so there should be waits but when I waited 25 min to get on people mover I knew something was wrong. Peter Pan was also loaded the same way, the CM were skipping cars. Didn't notice this on other rides, I feel like most of the other popular rides were filled to capacity but I did notice on a few that our FP+ processing times were slower than normal. We rode Buzz and it took 20 min to get on with a FP+. That's rare. I think the CM who is responsible for merging the FP+ line with the general line was out of it. When we finally passed her she looked half dead. I don't know if that's more than a one person job or not but staffing is horrible. And TBH I could see why they'd be less than thrilled to do their jobs. Their counterparts at universal all got their $1K bonus at once in the beginning of 2018. Last I heard CM were waiting it out as they are still trying to negotiate higher pay. Disney needs to get their crap together.