DEBATE Is DCA Worth $14/Day?

[TiggerFreak]

AV,

The clarity of your disorganized musings leaves me in wait of your more structured thoughts

 

[Another Voice]

“The Japanese market is clearly different than the American.”

Well yes, that public was given a park worth visiting; the market in California was given the Kern County Fair minus the petting zoo.

Actually, Universal Japan shows up the failings of California Adventure once again. While UJ is filled with clones from Universal’s American parks, it is also the only studio tour park in the country. The rides in Osaka are fresh, new and interesting to the public and the theme is hugely appealing too – Japan is the largest overseas market for American movies. New shows in an interesting theme mean good business.

California Adventure, however, is a blend of recycle WDW films (none of which have tremendous repeat value) and carnival rides that are duplicated in a dozen parks within a 90 minute drive of the place. The current Orange County fair is running their own Sun Wheel (complete with neon lights). There is only one attraction that is somewhat unique (‘Soaring Over California’) but the rest have been done much better at Knott’s or Six Flags or even Sea World. And for the theme, it comes off as an excuse for the rides rather than any attempt to capture the “mystique” of California (no one thinks 'California beach' and conjures up a mental image of an amusement park merry-go-round). There is absolutely nothing in the park that is anything other than a cheapened version of what’s available for real. Why would anyone pay $45 to sit by a phony ocean lagoon when the real thing is twenty minutes away and for free? There is simply no draw for the local market.

I used to think that all the efforts to discredit DisneySea were rather amusing; just another case of sour grapes from people who should know better. But it’s becoming very clear that too many people in Disney has decided that it’s much easier to make excuses for California Adventure rather than take the effort to fix the problem. A similar mindset of “don’t worry, it will fix itself” set in the early days of Euro Disney as well. It’s to all our good fortunes that a few smart people stepped into the situation and corrected the problems before they got any worse. I just don’t see that happening with DCA.

No doubt next summer when DCA is free add-on to a standard Disneyland ticket that we’ll still be hearing excuses.

 

[Cris]

[/B][/QUOTE]
Although DCA does not have as nice of theming as AK, it has a lot more attractions. [/B][/QUOTE]

I don't consider the rides at paradise pier to be "attractions". And now superstar limo and millionaire are close.

So lets see

-Disney Animations
-Muppets 4D
-Soarin over Cali
-Tough to be a Bug
-Grizzly River Run
-Redwood Creek Trail (play area)
-Bread/Tortilla Factory
-Golden Dreams
-Season's of the Vine
-King Triton's Carousel (cute)

Cali Scream though fun, the only thing disney about it is the mickey they plastered on it.

The rest of of Paradise Pier, uh no!

 

[Douglas Dubh]

California Adventure, however, is a blend of recycle WDW films (none of which have tremendous repeat value) and carnival rides that are duplicated in a dozen parks within a 90 minute drive of the place.

This is an argument against the execution of the theme, and not the theme itself. There are, of course, only two recycled WDW films (now that Return to Neverland is gone).

While UJ is filled with clones from Universal’s American parks, it is also the only studio tour park in the country. The rides in Osaka are fresh, new and interesting to the public and the theme is hugely appealing too – Japan is the largest overseas market for American movies.

These same arguments could be applied to any park built in Japan, DCA included. There's no proof that building DisneySea instead of DCA in Anaheim would have been a better decision for the company.

The current Orange County fair is running their own Sun Wheel (complete with neon lights).

Is it as tall? Does it have the swinging cars? Is it adjacent to a lagoon?

There is only one attraction that is somewhat unique (‘Soaring Over California’) but the rest have been done much better at Knott’s or Six Flags or even Sea World.

I've been on the raft rides at Knott's, Six Flags, and Sea World. GRR is superior to them all. Screaming beats all their roller coasters for me, hands down. It's fast, smooth, long, has a cool sound track, and is launched.

I used to think that all the efforts to discredit DisneySea were rather amusing; just another case of sour grapes from people who should know better.

Who is discrediting DisneySea? What's annoying is that people who should know better are trying to use DisneySea's success to brand DCA's theme a failure. The problem isn't the theme.

I don't consider the rides at paradise pier to be "attractions".

I do, just as I consider the Rocket Jets or the teacups to be attractions.

 

[Cris]

These same arguments could be applied to any park built in Japan, DCA included. There's no proof that building DisneySea instead of DCA in Anaheim would have been a better decision for the company

The only reason I have seen DCA was because I was in Anaheim for business. I would have never made a special trip to the other coast to see it. There is nothing new and innovative except maybe "Soarin". I have not visited Tokyo yet, though I have never had any desire before to go to Japan. I am going to try to swing a trip there in the near future just to visit The Tokyo Disney Resort.

Is it as tall? Does it have the swinging cars? Is it adjacent to a lagoon?

Bigger isn't always better And I can go ride one beside an ocean. So I don't really think that is makes it anything special.

I've been on the raft rides at Knott's, Six Flags, and Sea World. GRR is superior to them all. Screaming beats all their roller coasters for me, hands down. It's fast, smooth, long, has a cool sound track, and is launched.


GRR I do really like. Though the water raft ride at Silver Dollar city in Branson is a lot of fun as well. These kind of rides are my favorites, and I wish Disney would make a very long one, they really messed up with Kali River Rapids.

 

[lrodk]

There's no proof that building DisneySea instead of DCA in Anaheim would have been a better decision for the company.

Douglas, DisneySeas is "THE" premier theme park in the world, marking new standards in theme park design and consisting entirely of unique rides not found anywhere else. To suggest that we would need proof that this park would be any better for the company than DCA is simply mind boggling. For anyone who hasn't read anything or seen pictures specifically about DS, I suggest that you visit the links posted below to see what sets this place apart. After studying the layout and attractions, I defy anyone(who has visited DCA that is) to come back and say that they would much rather visit DCA. DCA may be a nice park for some, but DS is in a league of it's own. There's simply no comparison.

As far as it being better for the company, well, DS would have cost them roughly $3 billion(which is what it cost to build in japan), while DCA cost a shade over $1 billion. You're talking about the potential for more than two or three times the attendance they're getting right now at DCA, and that's being very conservative. So yes, for a little more than double what they've spent already and have been spending lately(and will no doubt continue to spend in the future) to make the place right, they could have had something that would have been talked about all over the world, something extremely special and unique. Rather than charging $14/day for DCA, they'd be pulling in $50/ticket instead. The differences in revenue would be astronomical.

I was really excited when they announced plans to build Westcot in Anaheim(I still have the plans for that park from the preview center), less excited but still optimistic when they revised the plans for DCA, and mortified when those plans became a reality . If it hadn't been for the Fox Family deal, which is not nearly the cash cow that a succesful year-round theme park would be, we may have had that park after all.Quite simply, Disney flat out Goofed on this one. With that said, I'm convinced that current management has no clue what is best for the company.

Laughing Place has some great pics and descriptions of the park, while Barry's site has Quicktime videos of many of the attractions.


http://www.laughingplace.com/Info-ID-Features-TokyoUpdates.asp

www.barrybedford.com

 

[raidermatt]

AV said:

The rides in Osaka are fresh, new and interesting to the public and the theme is hugely appealing too

Douglas replied:

These same arguments could be applied to any park built in Japan, DCA included. There's no proof that building DisneySea instead of DCA in Anaheim would have been a better decision for the company.

Well, there IS proof that DCA would have been fresh and new to Americans if it were sitting next to DL. Just look at it. There's nothing else like it here. The closest thing would be DL, but of course, Disney Seas already sits next to Tokyo DL, and that doesn't seem to be a problem.

Of course its impossible to PROVE the business case. However, given the fact that DCA is posting such poor attendance numbers, even with discounting, the evidence that Disney Seas would have been a better decision is pretty compelling.

 

[Another Voice]

What’s even more amusing is that most of the elements in DisneySea were designed by WDI for American parks. The genesis of DisneySea was the Port Disney complex in Long Beach and many a painting of the place featured Nemo’s volcano smoldering over the Little Mermaid’s Lagoon. Some aspects of the Long Beach design were dropped for weather reasons (Tokyo Bay isn’t quite Southern California) while some aspects of the American park were so good that we’re recreated in Tokyo. The steam liner in the American Harbor section of DisneySea is a lift of the R.M.S. Queen Mary which would have played a significant role in Port Disney.

On the other comments, I don’t think anyone is using the success of DisneySea to brand California Adventure a failure. I think the panicked additions, closed areas, budget cuts, unprecedented discounts, cancelled plans, sponsor bail-outs and overall corporate whining has pretty much painted DCA’s level of success. While Tokyo is putting out press releases announcing the substantial attendance numbers, Burbank is reduced to having their marketing interns create spin-filled websites and manipulating Internet discussion groups.

It’s almost as sad as trying to defend DCA by with “it's a bigger Ferris wheel” or “it’s a longer raft ride” lines. Disneyland was and is a place known for innovations, imagination and unparalleled showmanship. Yet the park in its parking lot’s biggest attempt at greatness comes from trying to be marginally better than Six Flags. Having a longer launched roller coaster than Knott’s Berry Farm is just not the same as saying Disneyland has ‘Indiana Jones’ and no one else does.

Lastly, I guess the ultimate “business proof” of the decision to build California Adventure is probably summed up by the fact that Disney would have made more money if they had left the parking lot in place instead of building DCA.

 

[LAinSEA]

Yes, it's worth $14 - $4 each for Soarin, the coaster and Grizzly's water drenching, $2 for a re-run of Tough to be a Bug.

Was it worth the So. Cal. college discount ticket price (in Oct. 2001)? Hmmm, maybe - since there were absolutely NO LINES on a Sunday (but they cut hours and that was the weekend Puck cancelled Avalon Cove's sponsorship - we'd looked forward to trying it and ate at Mondavi's instead and now that is gone too.)

It is not worth full-price DL admission!

How to make that way? (my 2 cents):

Keep the California theme

build a proper out-door theatre with shaded seating...use it for music series, Blast!, or something similar to Pageant of the Masters in Laguna Beach.

Replace the "carnival" style rides with something that actually puts a breeze through your hair.

Add to the animation/studios section - tower of terror (on it's way) and rock'n roller coaster (not necessarily Aerosmith) for a start.

Add another simulator type ride (like Star Tours) that takes people 4-wheeling through death valley, under water diving by Catalina or Monteray Bay (sp?)....

How about a log flume style ride that diverts off the mill and into the mine?

but please do something...as is it's pretty to look at and great for pictures but there is no substance.

-LA

 

[Douglas Dubh]

Douglas, DisneySeas is "THE" premier theme park in the world, marking new standards in theme park design and consisting entirely of unique rides not found anywhere else.

I never said it wasn't.

To suggest that we would need proof that this park would be any better for the company than DCA is simply mind boggling.

Not really. You admit that it cost almost 3 times as much to build. If they had built it in Anaheim it probably would have cost less because they wouldn't have had to infill the bay, and it would have to be smaller so it would fit in the parking lot, so let's say it would have cost them double. What if it only drew twice as many people as DCA? There's no way it would have rivaled Disneyland in the amount of rides it has, and one of the reasons DisneySea looks good is because Tokyo Disneyland has significantly less attractions than the original DL has, so all of the arguments about value for your money would still have applied.

If it hadn't been for the Fox Family deal, which is not nearly the cash cow that a succesful year-round theme park would be, we may have had that park after all.

I believe DCA was already opened when the Fox Family deal was announced, so I doubt there's any link at all.

It’s almost as sad as trying to defend DCA by with “it's a bigger Ferris wheel” or “it’s a longer raft ride” lines.

But not as sad as trying to knock DCA by comparing it to a County fair. I've been to Knott's, I've been to Magic Mountain, I've been to county fairs. I'd much rather spend a day at DCA then any of those places.

Lastly, I guess the ultimate “business proof” of the decision to build California Adventure is probably summed up by the fact that Disney would have made more money if they had left the parking lot in place instead of building DCA.

Maybe last year, maybe this year, but not ultimately. DCA will improve, the economy will improve, and attendence will improve. DCA does not need a new theme - what it needs are a few good attractions.

 

[Another Voice]

DCA will improve, the economy will improve, and attendance will improve….

No, it won’t.

That’s already been proven by the post-9/11 recovery that Disneyland has experienced and that DCA has not. And both Knott’s and Sea World are also reporting higher attendance while DCA has continued to slip. With such a substantial local population base, the overall economy does not impact Disneyland the same way it does a touritst destination like Vegas or WDW. And even in the post-9/11 world where people are staying closer to home, common wisdom would have said that millions of Californians would have “played it safe” by seeing a brand new park that’s in town rather than fly off to Hawaii or Mexico. Yet, the all stayed away from DCA.

The problems at DCA will continue until someone has the guts to address them. It will not be pleasant and it will not be easy. But until someone fixes the places, rather than simply wish that time or the theme park fairy will, DCA will continue to hurt both Disneyland and WDW. A reason why most of the plans for Florida have been cancelled is directly due to California Adventure. The corporate goal is to keep income from Attractions up – ‘Beastly Kingdom’ was in part sacrificed to offset the losses from DCA.

As for DisneySea, the total construction cost also included a large indoor retail center (much larger than Downtown Disney Anaheim), new hotels, a monorail and road system, infrastructure support and rebuilding the rail station. And it was all done on landfill.

The problem with DCA is more in how the money was spent than how much was put into the park. The original budget would have given us just more elaborate bad things (like a carousel version of the Whoopie movie) rather than good attractions – with the possible exception of fleshing out ‘Soaring’ into the show that it should have been. The park was flawed at the inception stage. It will take a major re-building effort to correct that.

 

[raidermatt]

I've been to Knott's, I've been to Magic Mountain, I've been to county fairs. I'd much rather spend a day at DCA then any of those places.

That's great for you, but apparently, there are very few who agree. That's why Disney is offering HUGE discounts from the original price plan, and still bringing in only fraction of the original expected attendance. Do the math, and it equals a serious problem. Neither DL, nor the other SoCal parks are experiencing issues of that magnitude, so blaming the economy is merely diverting attention from the fact that some bad decisions were made. (I'm not into placing blame, only taking responsibility, learning from mistakes, and doing what it takes to make things right. If somone chooses not to do those things, well, then I can throw the "blame" dart as well as anyone)

Disney's customers have spoken with regard to DCA, and the message is undeniable.

Perhaps an arguement can be made that there shouldn't have been a park built at all (I disagree), but there's just no way DCA can be called a success.

 

[Douglas Dubh]

"The problems at DCA will continue until someone has the guts to address them. It will not be pleasant and it will not be easy."

Like I said, it needs some more good attractions. And it needed to be made more affordable to families, through hopper passes of shorter length. A two-day hopper is what they should have introduced, but last I heard, that was only available to So. Cal. residents.

"The problem with DCA is more in how the money was spent than how much was put into the park."

No argument there. I really don't believe that Paradise Pier was introduced as a money saving element. I think it's there because of Eisner's nostalgia for his boyhood days at Coney Island. If it was my call, would I have included it? No, but it's not that bad, and it wasn't all that cheap.

"The original budget would have given us just more elaborate bad things (like a carousel version of the Whoopie movie) rather than good attractions – with the possible exception of fleshing out ‘Soaring’ into the show that it should have been. The park was flawed at the inception stage."

I think the execution of the theme could have been done better. But I don't think the theme is the problem, and retheming the park is not the answer to DCA's problems.

 

[Another Voice]

I too think the California theme could have worked, but it would have taken a lot more imagination and effort then Disney put into DCA. But getting the theme to work now would require ripping out most of the attractions (because they don’t support the theme and because they do not appeal to the local market). Paradise Pier really nothing but a bone thrown to Eisner; he’s shoved a Coney Island area into every project for the last fifteen years: everything from the original WDW Boardwalk to Disney/MGM Studios Backlot in Burbank and even floated the idea that DisneySea should have it instead of Cape Cod. It’s always been included as just a very cheap way to increase the attraction count.

Disney is unwilling to put in the capital now required to either make the California theme work or to develop a coherent park. Yes, the place does need more good attractions but those are unlikely to happen. Now Anaheim is stuck with a place that doesn’t work as a theme park and is trying to figuring out how to make money from the white elephant in the parking lot.

“Making the place more affordable” is really just another way of saying that DCA is not a full ticket park. The recent introduction of the one-day park hopper (where DCA is a $14 add-on to Disneyland) is the first step towards one of two likely scenarios now.

One is the “Super-Park” plan in which DCA would cease to exist as a separate gate. It would be rolled into Disneyland as three additional “lands”. Rumors say the one-day hopper is being used as a test for the public’s reaction to the price Disney would want to charge for the expanded park.

The other is the “Super-Downtown” plan that would emphasize entertainment, dining and shopping. There would be no admission ticket; the remaining rides would be individually ticketed. This plan faces a significant uphill battle because it would be the biggest slap at corporate egos about the whole Disneyland Resort concept and because Disney’s relations with potential store & restaurant owners is so bad right now they would have a very difficult time finding tenants.

 

[larry_poppins]

I am all for the Super-Park plan. Current management does not have the talent, ambition, or confidence to fix DCA and create a compelling park that can compete with DL and the many other gated attractions in So Cal.

Nothing has been added to Disneyland in years. DCA for those who go there is a very pleasant experience. It will only be better once Tower of Terror 2.0 open. I think many locals will pay for a higher DL ticket that allows park hopping. It might even lead to increased annual pass sales. Lately, Disneyland management can agree on only one thing - SELL ANNUAL PASSPORTS!

Larry Poppins

 

[King Triton]

Disney made a big mistake building DCA. If we had DisneySea there instead, I guarantee you would see attendence go through the roof! I can't believe the quality invested in DisneySea and at the same time so little invested in DCA. I'm a big disney fan and I have no interest seeing DCA.

I think Disney needs to change the theme and start from scratch. Blow it up and build a new park.

King Triton

 

[Cris]

blow it up indeed!! hehe

 

[Douglas Dubh]

But getting the theme to work now would require ripping out most of the attractions (because they don’t support the theme and because they do not appeal to the local market).

Nonsense. It just needs some more, good, family style California themed attractions.

It’s always been included as just a very cheap way to increase the attraction count.

I disagree, as I've already stated, and I doubt you can prove your contention.

“Making the place more affordable” is really just another way of saying that DCA is not a full ticket park.

So IOA is not a full ticket park, since Universal sells a two day hopper in Orlando? I think not.

If we had DisneySea there instead, I guarantee you would see attendence go through the roof!

That's not something you can guarantee. It could be they could have spent twice as much and only gotten twice the attendence, and been in a worse mess than they are now.

 

[AKemel]

I have been to both DL and WDW.

There is a great difference between the two places. Florida parks have great number of shows; while California is much more ride intensive. When some people describe DCA as a half-day park, if the lines are short the same would apply to DL. If a ride takes 10 min, than 20 rides will fill only half a day.

WDW and DL have very different feel, and since I do not enjoy self-induction of vomiting, I can’t wait till my next trip to WDW.

 

[airlarry!]

Boy have I enjoyed reading these posts. Douglas, you have reminded me how much all of us love Disney the Innovator not Disney the Stock Price Generator.

Would a quick poll help? Would that convince you? It seems that your biggest bone of contention is that you don't think that substituting Disney Seas for DCA in Anaheim would make a bit of a difference. Right?

Someone start a poll...If Disney Seas were in Anaheim instead of DCA, would you:

A. Be Much more likely to go to the new Disneyland Resort
B. Be more likely to go
C. About the same
D. Be less likely
E. Be much less likely...

I know I would vote A.