disabilities assistance Abuse

[OurBigTrip]

I would welcome this idea 100%. I don't even mind bringing the actual medical records, not just a doc's note.

Even if the law allowed this, I still don’t see how it would help, since not everyone with a given disability requires the same accommodations.

 

[TwoMisfits]

Even if the law allowed this, I still don’t see how it would help, since not everyone with a given disability requires the same accommodations.

Fraud would go down a ton if you needed to produce medical records and a doc's note each time (for a certain time length approval - which for most folks would be ticket length for visit) b/c it becomes expensive and burdensome to the fraudsters (b/c they don't have them already from visits/treatment).

It solves all the problems the OP has, which is the abusers. The borderline cases (this person with this disability might not need it when most do) are not what piss people off - it's the out and out fakers who have no need or document of anything...

 

[SueM in MN]

I would welcome this idea 100%. I don't even mind bringing the actual medical records, not just a doc's note.

The UK and Europe have paper documentation and/or ID cards to document that they are disabled. There isn’t anything similar in the US.
Even if there was, just having something that shows the person is disabled in some way doesn’t show what the needs are.

Showing medical records or a doctor note would mean someone has to go thru/interpret them. I could literally produce reams of medical records for my daughter because her disabilities were present since birth, but almost none of it would be helpful in telling what her needs are.
CMs would also have to validate that the records or letters were actually REAL medical records from REAL doctors. At one point under the old disability system (GAC), people were sharing suggested text which some people bragged they used to make their own ’doctor letters’ for WDW.

 

[TwoMisfits]

The UK and Europe have paper documentation and/or ID cards to document that they are disabled. There isn’t anything similar in the US.
Even if there was, just having something that shows the person is disabled in some way doesn’t show what the needs are.

Showing medical records or a doctor note would mean someone has to go thru/interpret them. I could literally produce reams of medical records for my daughter because her disabilities were present since birth, but almost none of it would be helpful in telling what her needs are.
CMs would also have to validate that the records or letters were actually REAL medical records from REAL doctors. At one point under the old disability system (GAC), people were sharing suggested text which some people bragged they used to make their own ’doctor letters’ for WDW.

And you would not be frauding the system.

And in this era, verifying a doc or hospital is almost as simple as a text or web search.

And really, Disney needs to know less about specific "needs" of each person and more about just "is there basic need", b/c they only really provide one accommodation people seek, the DAS pass. You get your own wheelchairs and conveyance devices, you get your own food and bev, you find your own place to rest, your own bathrooms, etc.

 

[Lilsia]

Fraud would go down a ton if you needed to produce medical records and a doc's note each time (for a certain time length approval - which for most folks would be ticket length for visit) b/c it becomes expensive and burdensome to the fraudsters (b/c they don't have them already from visits/treatment).

It solves all the problems the OP has, which is the abusers. The borderline cases (this person with this disability might not need it when most do) are not what piss people off - it's the out and out fakers who have no need or document of anything...

Another issue is people, like me, who have an ongoing medical issue that is not needed to be treated by a doctor but it affects my life. I don't want to, nor should I have to, pay to go to the doctor every year for a statement just to get the DAS. Not only does that put a financial burden on me, but it wastes the doctor's time to just see to write a note for WDW.

 

[SueM in MN]

And you would not be frauding the system.

And in this era, verifying a doc or hospital is almost as simple as a text or web search.

And really, Disney needs to know less about specific "needs" of each person and more about just "is there basic need", b/c they only really provide one accommodation people seek, the DAS pass. You get your own wheelchairs and conveyance devices, you get your own food and bev, you find your own place to rest, your own bathrooms, etc.

You (and some other posters) are assuming there is a lot of fraud. I don’t think it’s near the level that some people think. There are still many people using the Fastpass Return lines besides DAS, including Rider Swap, guest recovery passes for a ride shutdown or some other problem, VIP Tour groups (sometimes the VIP tour guide gets their guests into the line, but the the guests go on the attraction and meet the tour guide afterwards.
My husband, youngest DD and I were at WDW in June. A couple of times, we noticed large numbers of people entering the Fastpass line; we found out later they were doing some kind of Fastpass testing.

Seeing someone running or walking fast from a handicapped parking spot doesn’t mean no one in the group is disabled or that they were borrowing someone‘s handicapped parking permit. It could be someone excited who has energy in the morning. Or maybe, the disabled person is a child with autism who is perfectly capable of walking and running.
Seeing one person using a wheelchair/ECV and later another person using it doesn’t mean they are ‘cheating’. People who don’t need one all the time frequently either share it or walk for a while while someone else uses it. When my kids were little, we sometimes carried the younger one and her sister rode her wheelchair. Same thing happened with a friend’s 2 kids; both could walk and even run. The wheelchair was for her oldest son who had an inoperable heart condition and died in his sleep when he was 18.

Looking up a doctor or clinic address on line just shows it exists, not that the doctor actually wrote a letter or even cares for the patient. And, leaving a message for a doctor isn’t as easy as doing a text. When we need to contact one of my daughter’s providers, it’s either leaving a message on the MyChart message system or calling the clinic, being on hold and leaving a message. Either one will get us a call or message back in about 2 working days.

This board began in 1999 and I’ve been a Moderator since the start. In 1999, many websites were saying guests needed to bring a doctor letter to request the program in effect at that time - GAC (Guest Assistance Card).
Some people posted then that their doctor required a visit to write a letter; others‘ doctors charged a fee for writing a letter, which is only fair because it did take the doctor’s time. The patient had to pay; insurance would not because neither the visit or letter were medically necessary.
On the other hand, some people got legitimate letters from their doctor without medical need. A couple situations I remember people reporting about:
- a healthy pregnant woman got a letter saying she was disabled (her doctor told her pregnant women deserve to not wait)
- a family with 3 non disabled children got a letter saying one was disabled (her doctor said anyone taking 3 small children deserved to not wait)

And, then there were blogs where people wrote how to get GAC. Some gave instructions and text for how to write a fake doctor letter, including how to make official looking letterhead

i personally think don’t think it’s fair or right to make peopke with real disabilities jump thru a bunch of hoops to address a perceived appearance of some possible cheats.

 

[ttintagel]

“Of course there are people with disabilities that may not be obvious to the untrained eye. My issue is with People that abuse the system.”

My issue is with people who think they can tell the difference between those two groups of people at a casual glance. Most MDs can’t even do that.

Many people don’t need a wheelchair in their everyday lives, but a day in a Disney park ain’t a day in everyday life, no matter how you slice it. And there are people who only need a wheelchair part of the time (sitting all day actually aggravates some conditions). Letting other people in their group use the wheelchair while they don’t need it hurts nobody, unless they’re operating it in an unsafe manner. I’ve toured the parks both with a wheelchair/ECV and without, and there were no advantages to the former. No FOTL access. No shorter waits. Just a lot of aggro.

Requiring a doctor’s note wouldn’t change a thing. Doctors love to write notes, even those who have no idea how things operate at a Disney park.

Does Disney get accommodation perfect? Heck no. You’ll see plenty of comments from me wishing that the accommodations I need for visual impairment were required instead of being left up to the whim of individual CMs at attractions. But they do a better job than most.

 

[mamabunny]

You (and some other posters) are assuming there is a lot of fraud. I don’t think it’s near the level that some people think...

This.

My hubs and I were just talking about this very concept tonight. He is a "car guy" (srsly, I think it's encoded in his DNA) and he casually said "Oh we can't buy *that* car, because all of the engines are failing..." I asked him what he had read/seen to cause him to believe that. He said "Oh, it's *all over* the internet - that whole series of engines is bad, and they fail without warning."

To make a looooooooooooong story shorter, after much questioning, and a bit of light googling of my own, I realized that what he perceived as "all of the engines" and "everyone says" was just the normal chatter of a couple of groups of car guys. The same basic info was being passed around all 3 of the sites he visits daily, and as I suspected, the same handful of disgruntled owners were spreading their tale of woe on every enthusiast site they could find.

So, I reminded him that often what we see on the internet is the bad stuff - it's the stuff that gets shared the most, passed around the faster and viewed the most times. As a species, humans are weird; we all seem to have a bit of a tendency to naturally gravitate towards those kinds of posts. It validates your belief that *you* bought the "right" car; after all, you aren't here posting about your horrible experience... Additionally, we rarely go online to praise a company for doing something well; if you buy a car, and it works every day, you probably don't go and post a review - or seek out a company representative - to tell everyone else how happy you are with your car. You get in, and drive away.

I used to be a retail manager, once upon a time. When I was in training before I was assigned to my store, my DM (district manager) told me that a happy customer *might* tell 1 or 2 friends, but an *unhappy* customer tells - on average - 10 people or MORE about their experience. When you think about that in the context of our discussion here, it's quite possible that a very minuscule fraction of Guests are fraudulently obtaining a DAS (and even bragging about it) but it's also quite possible that we are just hearing the same stories repeated over and over by others as they get passed around through the community.

 

[Disneyfan754321]

Fraud would go down a ton if you needed to produce medical records and a doc's note each time (for a certain time length approval - which for most folks would be ticket length for visit) b/c it becomes expensive and burdensome to the fraudsters (b/c they don't have them already from visits/treatment).

It solves all the problems the OP has, which is the abusers. The borderline cases (this person with this disability might not need it when most do) are not what piss people off - it's the out and out fakers who have no need or document of anything...

At six flags, if your note says the condition is permanent it says in the number they supply you if it's temporary it will be good for the season or less if specified.
The first note I got they would not take because it had a diagnosis so I had to call for another one that was vague and just said unable to wait in que lines due to a permanent disability. So now it's on there for life. Now my son shows his ID and they give it to him, it was my ID untill he was older.

 

[Karin1984]

That people think there is fraud is that either not knowing how the procedures work, but also a few years ago, there were some articles about people who hired people in wheelchairs to get DAS advantages (Bad choice of words, but I don't have anything better). That is an image that really sticks, because it's so immoral. It's hard to get rid of that image. And indeed what happens when something goes wrong for a DAS-person and the press picks it up, it looks twice as bad. You never want bad press over customer experiences, but if it's with a DAS-person, your image takes a double hit.

I'll admit mixed feelings about DAS. My main issue is there is no way of having a perfect system. My homepark is Paris, where they do ask for documentation, so my guess is that fraud is less an issue here.
I am not 100% sure how it works in Paris, but I do think that after DAS-people have their card there is little wait for them. Unless there is a queue in the DAS-line.

I know that people who have to use DAS have a more difficult life in general than me who is able-bodied & able-minded. They need a different way of touring than I do. I see that, no problem with it. It is needed and if I ever would need it, I would want a system as well.
But when a DAS-using friend (with good reasons) brags to me that she can ride Big Thunder Mountain 7 times in a row with little to no wait, or that I have wait at Meet & Greets 30-45 minutes longer because they keep letting DAS-people in front of me, then my understanding goes down.

 

[OurBigTrip]

That people think there is fraud is that either not knowing how the procedures work, but also a few years ago, there were some articles about people who hired people in wheelchairs to get DAS advantages (Bad choice of words, but I don't have anything better). That is an image that really sticks, because it's so immoral. It's hard to get rid of that image. And indeed what happens when something goes wrong for a DAS-person and the press picks it up, it looks twice as bad. You never want bad press over customer experiences, but if it's with a DAS-person, your image takes a double hit.

I'll admit mixed feelings about DAS. My main issue is there is no way of having a perfect system. My homepark is Paris, where they do ask for documentation, so my guess is that fraud is less an issue here.
I am not 100% sure how it works in Paris, but I do think that after DAS-people have their card there is little wait for them. Unless there is a queue in the DAS-line.

I know that people who have to use DAS have a more difficult life in general than me who is able-bodied & able-minded. They need a different way of touring than I do. I see that, no problem with it. It is needed and if I ever would need it, I would want a system as well.
But when a DAS-using friend (with good reasons) brags to me that she can ride Big Thunder Mountain 7 times in a row with little to no wait, or that I have wait at Meet & Greets 30-45 minutes longer because they keep letting DAS-people in front of me, then my understanding goes down.

The "tour guide" abuse was back under the old GAC system, which allowed immediate entry into the FP line for most guests who utilized it. So while it wasn't immediate access to the ride, it was immediate access to the FP line, which for popular rides made it entirely possible for GAC holders to have very short wait times compared to non-GAC holders.

The DAS, in the US at least, doesn't provide that immediate access...the DAS holder must get a return time that is equal to the standby wait time minus 10 minutes. After waiting, they come back and enter the FP line. While it still provides an advantage, it doesn't provide nearly the incentive for the non-disabled to abuse it as they did the GAC. It also prevents valid users from overusing it to the extent that ride operations for all guests are negatively impacted.

**edited to correct "was" to "wasn't"

 

[TwoMisfits]

You (and some other posters) are assuming there is a lot of fraud. I don’t think it’s near the level that some people think. There are still many people using the Fastpass Return lines besides DAS, including Rider Swap, guest recovery passes for a ride shutdown or some other problem, VIP Tour groups (sometimes the VIP tour guide gets their guests into the line, but the the guests go on the attraction and meet the tour guide afterwards.
My husband, youngest DD and I were at WDW in June. A couple of times, we noticed large numbers of people entering the Fastpass line; we found out later they were doing some kind of Fastpass testing.

Seeing someone running or walking fast from a handicapped parking spot doesn’t mean no one in the group is disabled or that they were borrowing someone‘s handicapped parking permit. It could be someone excited who has energy in the morning. Or maybe, the disabled person is a child with autism who is perfectly capable of walking and running.
Seeing one person using a wheelchair/ECV and later another person using it doesn’t mean they are ‘cheating’. People who don’t need one all the time frequently either share it or walk for a while while someone else uses it. When my kids were little, we sometimes carried the younger one and her sister rode her wheelchair. Same thing happened with a friend’s 2 kids; both could walk and even run. The wheelchair was for her oldest son who had an inoperable heart condition and died in his sleep when he was 18.

Looking up a doctor or clinic address on line just shows it exists, not that the doctor actually wrote a letter or even cares for the patient. And, leaving a message for a doctor isn’t as easy as doing a text. When we need to contact one of my daughter’s providers, it’s either leaving a message on the MyChart message system or calling the clinic, being on hold and leaving a message. Either one will get us a call or message back in about 2 working days.

This board began in 1999 and I’ve been a Moderator since the start. In 1999, many websites were saying guests needed to bring a doctor letter to request the program in effect at that time - GAC (Guest Assistance Card).
Some people posted then that their doctor required a visit to write a letter; others‘ doctors charged a fee for writing a letter, which is only fair because it did take the doctor’s time. The patient had to pay; insurance would not because neither the visit or letter were medically necessary.
On the other hand, some people got legitimate letters from their doctor without medical need. A couple situations I remember people reporting about:
- a healthy pregnant woman got a letter saying she was disabled (her doctor told her pregnant women deserve to not wait)
- a family with 3 non disabled children got a letter saying one was disabled (her doctor said anyone taking 3 small children deserved to not wait)

And, then there were blogs where people wrote how to get GAC. Some gave instructions and text for how to write a fake doctor letter, including how to make official looking letterhead

i personally think don’t think it’s fair or right to make peopke with real disabilities jump thru a bunch of hoops to address a perceived appearance of some possible cheats.

But that's why I said doc note AND medical records. Real docs won't forge the records, and your diagnosis (if it's just healthy pregnancy in the records) would be obvious. And if it was a perfect world, I'd have folks have to presubmit them to a certain Disney group IN ADVANCE who would then have approval (or disapproval) already done for the park, since 19 year old college students have no idea about this stuff, so approval/disapproval of DAS normally falls on "who is verbally the most adroit or who "performs" the best in the CS line."

I had a DAS-equivalent at Universal. It was preapproved for me for a set period of days (my vacay days), since my relative (who works in the company, but not at Universal proper) asked me in advance for all my official medical records and needs. And I sent them. It opened my eyes to how this could go vs how it does. Again. it's not how Universal normally does it, either...but it would be nice if it was.

As far as docs charging folks for paperwork, well, that's part of our life. Disney offers such a large benefit that the normal park goer does not currently receive, it should not be too much burden for those looking to use it. Nothing says you have to try to get a DAS when you go to the parks.

In our society, there's starting to be a trend to say "show me, don't tell me" (vax ID, voter ID, etc), since it's become so easy and cheap...so we should be ready for companies and/or laws to start being adapted to make that a reality.

 

[Orion Nebula]

I also get frustrated by the fact that not all disabilities are very noticeable. Each time I had to get a DAS pass I always wish I could provide proof. I always felt like I was being looked at suspiciously. It bothers me so much I attempted not to get one for my son (ASD) during my last trip. And then as expected he became a nightmare in line for everyone. He stims and runs into people constantly, prone to complete breakdowns due to noise and even small things like bumping his elbow. So our day at AK was ruined. The next day I got one and our trip ended up going much more smoothly and everyone had fun.

The people that abuse this system obviously effect the ones who need it, they are horrible entitled human beings.

 

[lanejudy]

it should not be too much burden for those looking to use it. Nothing says you have to try to get a DAS when you go to the parks.

You are looking at DAS as an optional add-on type of feature — like FP — it makes a more enjoyable experience but is not necessary. However DAS is absolutely 100% necessary for some folks to be able to access the attractions; without it they cannot manage the parks. See the post above as an example.

I don’t see WDW hiring a medical staff just to review medical records. Nope. And they determine whether my medical records support what my doctor wrote? Is it like the insurance company who may request additional documentation before approving the request? I'm curious what sort of documentation you think would be appropriate. Take for example a person who has a congenital condition (meaning they were born with it); they received special ed services while school-age and depending on how the condition manifests, possibly some medical follow-ups. Now as an adult who is adequately managing their condition on a day-to-day basis (with help from a caregiver), they don't have a lot of current medical records and the school records are long outdated. For example, an annual follow-up with a nephrologist is related to the diagnosis but does not directly show the right need, and an annual physical with a PCP may show the diagnosis was discussed but not "treated" and again doesn't indicate how that diagnosis relates to needing assistance in the parks. Just a quick peek back through the first few pages of disABILITIES shows some rare diagnoses that aren't likely to ever appear on an "accepted" list -- so again it falls to explaining the needs of the individual as those needs pertain to the general park environment or specifically the queue environment. There is no medical record that I can produce which will show that. Any documentation or letter from a professional will require 1) an unnecessary visit (wasting my time and the doctor's time) and 2) a fee for the visit because insurance won't cover it. And the end result is medical documentation that doesn't "prove" the specific needs.

No system is perfect. The ADA allows for equal access based on need. The US does not have a national registry of disabilities like some countries have, and honestly I don't think that is necessary. As long as the access is considered "equal" there should be little incentive for fraud, and those who do fake will find a way to do that regardless of the rules. Making the system harder for those who need it, just to weed out the few who don't, simply creates an obstacle. It sounds like some on this thread would actually advocate for "greater than equal" access and a system that requires proof. I am glad WDW is open and accessible to all - my family doesn't need extra.

 

[Lilsia]

That people think there is fraud is that either not knowing how the procedures work, but also a few years ago, there were some articles about people who hired people in wheelchairs to get DAS advantages (Bad choice of words, but I don't have anything better). That is an image that really sticks, because it's so immoral. It's hard to get rid of that image. And indeed what happens when something goes wrong for a DAS-person and the press picks it up, it looks twice as bad. You never want bad press over customer experiences, but if it's with a DAS-person, your image takes a double hit.

I'll admit mixed feelings about DAS. My main issue is there is no way of having a perfect system. My homepark is Paris, where they do ask for documentation, so my guess is that fraud is less an issue here.
I am not 100% sure how it works in Paris, but I do think that after DAS-people have their card there is little wait for them. Unless there is a queue in the DAS-line.

I know that people who have to use DAS have a more difficult life in general than me who is able-bodied & able-minded. They need a different way of touring than I do. I see that, no problem with it. It is needed and if I ever would need it, I would want a system as well.
But when a DAS-using friend (with good reasons) brags to me that she can ride Big Thunder Mountain 7 times in a row with little to no wait, or that I have wait at Meet & Greets 30-45 minutes longer because they keep letting DAS-people in front of me, then my understanding goes down.

My issue with DLP is that according to their rules, I don't have any kind of disability in the usual sense. But with my legitimate medical issue, I can not wait in line for more then 20-30 minutes at most before I would have to leave and use the facilities. So I would not qualify for a DAS there making it pretty much worthless for me to go. There are so many more medical issues then the standard "disabled" ones that they seem to not want to acknowledge. Most of us get along just fine in our day to day lives, but go to someplace like a Disney park, and that little bit of help, by waiting outside the line, makes all the difference in the world. Maybe DLP needs to change their policy to make it like WDW, where you do actually wait, just outside the line.

 

[Lilsia]

But that's why I said doc note AND medical records. Real docs won't forge the records, and your diagnosis (if it's just healthy pregnancy in the records) would be obvious. And if it was a perfect world, I'd have folks have to presubmit them to a certain Disney group IN ADVANCE who would then have approval (or disapproval) already done for the park, since 19 year old college students have no idea about this stuff, so approval/disapproval of DAS normally falls on "who is verbally the most adroit or who "performs" the best in the CS line."

I had a DAS-equivalent at Universal. It was preapproved for me for a set period of days (my vacay days), since my relative (who works in the company, but not at Universal proper) asked me in advance for all my official medical records and needs. And I sent them. It opened my eyes to how this could go vs how it does. Again. it's not how Universal normally does it, either...but it would be nice if it was.

As far as docs charging folks for paperwork, well, that's part of our life. Disney offers such a large benefit that the normal park goer does not currently receive, it should not be too much burden for those looking to use it. Nothing says you have to try to get a DAS when you go to the parks.

In our society, there's starting to be a trend to say "show me, don't tell me" (vax ID, voter ID, etc), since it's become so easy and cheap...so we should be ready for companies and/or laws to start being adapted to make that a reality.

What? Nobody should have to show anyone, let alone a theme park employee, their personal medical records. It's no one's business what medical issues you have gone through. They are private for a reason. People are not applying for government assistance here where they should have to prove they need it. This is a theme park, where your accommodation with a DAS is to wait somewhere else instead of in line. Not really that big of a deal that would warrant showing anyone your medical history.

 

[Lilsia]

The people that abuse this system obviously effect the ones who need it, they are horrible entitled human beings.

But how does it affect you if other people have the DAS? It's not like there is a limit that they hand out and you might not get one. Those people would still be in some kind of line so it's not like the park would be less busy. It really does not affect anyone else if others have the DAS.

 

[TwoMisfits]

But how does it affect you if other people have the DAS? It's not like there is a limit that they hand out and you might not get one. Those people would still be in some kind of line so it's not like the park would be less busy. It really does not affect anyone else if others have the DAS.

That's not true. While I didn't go on other rides while I waited when I used one this year, you see routinely many people say they get a DAS return time for one ride and then head to another, so they are adding to lines for the normal park guest. That's why it's more than a regular guest receives, and is a benefit. If they prevented that activity, then it would be "the same." But they don't, so the DAS rider is getting more possible access to rides.

Now, those with DAS needs probably are not in the park as long, nor riding as much in general, so that "extra" access isn't a problem even if it's taken. But a fraudster DAS holder - yeah, they are screwing regular attendees.

 

[Orion Nebula]

But how does it affect you if other people have the DAS? It's not like there is a limit that they hand out and you might not get one. Those people would still be in some kind of line so it's not like the park would be less busy. It really does not affect anyone else if others have the DAS.

Because I think they are crappy people for abusing the system. I have two children with a disability, and anytime I come across people that shrug and think "heh, me too, free perks" it really bothers me. I have always felt like it almost discredits those who actually struggle in life but maybe I am the only one.

 

[ttintagel]

The "tour guide" abuse was back under the old GAC system, which allowed immediate entry into the FP line for most guests who utilized it. So while it wasn't immediate access to the ride, it was immediate access to the FP line, which for popular rides made it entirely possible for GAC holders to have very short wait times compared to non-GAC holders.

The DAS, in the US at least, doesn't provide that immediate access...the DAS holder must get a return time that is equal to the standby wait time minus 10 minutes. After waiting, they come back and enter the FP line. While it still provides an advantage, it doesn't provide nearly the incentive for the non-disabled to abuse it as they did the GAC. It also prevents valid users from overusing it to the extent that ride operations for all guests are negatively impacted.

**edited to correct "was" to "wasn't"

Also, it was mostly an issue at Disneyland, where fewer attractions have accessible queues.