disabilities assistance Abuse

[OurBigTrip]

Also, it was mostly an issue at Disneyland, where fewer attractions have accessible queues.

The use of "tour guides" abusing the system may have mostly been in Disneyland, but the instant access to FP at both Disneyland and Disney World contributed to abuse by the non-disabled and overuse by the disabled at both locations.

 

[Lilsia]

Because I think they are crappy people for abusing the system. I have two children with a disability, and anytime I come across people that shrug and think "heh, me too, free perks" it really bothers me. I have always felt like it almost discredits those who actually struggle in life but maybe I am the only one.

I never said that those people are not crappy individuals, just that they don't affect others being able to have access to DAS. It's not like there is a limit on how many they hand out, so if someone lies to get one, it's not like they are taking the place for someone else who really needs it.

 

[OurBigTrip]

I never said that those people are not crappy individuals, just that they don't affect others being able to have access to DAS. It's not like there is a limit on how many they hand out, so if someone lies to get one, it's not like they are taking the place for someone else who really needs it.

Very true, however, if (and it's a big "if") Disney feels that abuse is on the rise again, they'll make it either harder to get or less useful or both.

 

[Lilsia]

Very true, however, if (and it's a big "if") Disney feels that abuse is on the rise again, they'll make it either harder to get or less useful or both.

They might, but they will never be able to ask anyone for medical information. So there really is no point in debating if they should or not. They are not going to risk breaking the law over something like this. And I don't think that the abuse is as bad as what some people think. Like everyone hear has already said, you don't know what someone's issues are. I look perfectly normal and healthy because my issues are not visible, they are internal. But without DAS, I would not be able to do much of anything in the parks. But I imagine if you saw me go through the FP line, you would assume that I was faking it. That is the whole point, you don't know.

 

[OurBigTrip]

They might, but they will never be able to ask anyone for medical information. So there really is no point in debating if they should or not. They are not going to risk breaking the law over something like this. And I don't think that the abuse is as bad as what some people think. Like everyone hear has already said, you don't know what someone's issues are. I look perfectly normal and healthy because my issues are not visible, they are internal. But without DAS, I would not be able to do much of anything in the parks. But I imagine if you saw me go through the FP line, you would assume that I was faking it. That is the whole point, you don't know.

No, but they can ask for a doctors note if they choose to, so long as it doesn't tell what the disability is.

 

[lanejudy]

No, but they can ask for a doctors note if they choose to, so long as it doesn't tell what the disability is.

I know Six Flags does it and probably others, but what they offer grants you access with potential for little or no wait. So even though they say it's not intended to skip the line, it essentially works like their GOFAST pass which has a monetary value.

Asking for a doctor's note is asking for proof. Just because they say "don't state the disability" doesn't mean it isn't proof. That is simply covering their butts in that they may not be the most careful in protecting the privacy of such documents. It really has nothing to do with making the note allowable under the ADA.

 

[MediumSizedMermaid]

You cannot tell someone who has a disability from someone who doesn't by looking at them. You cannot tell if a person is 'just lazy' by looking at them.

There's been a LOT of talk in this thread about 'just' wanting to shame the 'abusers'. Guess what? Go anywhere where disabled people are talking and you will hear or read tons of stories about people who were confronted by someone who that they were 'faking' when they had a legitimate disability. Thinking you can tell 'good' disabled people from fakers or lazy people who do not deserve accommodation at a glance is ableist and gross. Just because someone's not puttering around on a crutch whimpering like freaking Tiny Tim does not mean they aren't disabled. Disabled people aren't obligated to conform to whatever Victorian novel standard you have in your head so you can feel like things are 'fair.'

If you know someone personally who admits to abusing the system, fine, call them out. But they are a minority. Anecdotes aren't data. If there was a significant amount of fraud happening Disney would adjust the system, just as they did when the stories came out about those tour guides.

The question is: Do you want the (extremely small amount) of fraudsters to be denied more than you want people who need it to have access? That's the dichotomy. The more barriers you put in the harder it will be for people with legitimate disabilities to use too. I'd rather let 10 fakers sneak in than have 1 needing person go without. But that's just me.

The current system is IMO a happy medium between accommodating people who need it and eliminating the kind of fraud that would most impact other guests.

1. Your party goes to Guest Services. You explain who needs the accommodation and maybe generally why. They take that person's picture and link that and the DAS to their MDE profile. They then scan the rest of your party to link you all. Everyone has to be there. (No taking Steve's Magicband and having him join your group later.) They will then activate DAS for a period of time. (This varies. My Dad uses DAS because of his back and one time it was length of stay only, another it was good for six months.)

Any time your party changes you have to return to Guest Services. (Meaning anyone trying to pull the tour guide scam is likely going to get flagged given their constantly changing parties of people they have no history/relationship with and who have no history/relationship with each other. And the above point RE Steve means they can't sell themselves as a 'VIP' guide and unwittingly add people to their party who think it's a real VIP thing and have no clue they're using DAS at all. Or your shady in-law can't add you to their party without your knowledge.)

Let's use my Dad as an example: He could be in a party with my Mom and my brother one trip. Another trip it's me, him, and my best friend. My family all has the same last name and address and my friend has a long history of being in my MDE friends and family list and FP parties etc. with me. One day during the second trip my aunt and uncle, who live in Orlando, decide to join us. Again, same last name, longstanding park history together and MDE links. All three times require a separate trip to Guest Services to adjust your party.

2. Anyone in the group can go to the attraction and get a return time. The time is usually approximately the standby wait and you can only have one at a time. (No having a return time for FOP in three hours and then trying to get one for Expedition Everest for one hour while you're still waiting for FOP. You can only wait in one 'line' at a time.)

3. When it's time to ride the DAS person has to be there and they have to be riding. (No Grandpa getting a return time for a coaster only the Grandkids are going on.) Their band/ticket gets scanned in the FP+ queue first. The cast member checks the photo. (No getting DAS for yourself and giving your cousin your Magicband for the day.) Everyone else taps in and you go through the FP+ queue.

All together: Photo and MDE records keep out tour guides and habitual scammers and prevent people from unwittingly abusing the system because of someone else. DAS has to be periodically renewed and party updated so you can't 'set it and forget it'. Photo and DAS person must ride requirement mean a legitimate DAS user can't 'cheat the system' and get a return time for any attraction they aren't themselves riding.

The one at a time limit means you can't be 'on line' for say 7DMT, Space Mountain, and Peter Pan at the same time. If 7DMT has a return time of two hours later, and then after that you get a one hour for Space Mountain, and after that a 1.5 hour for Pan you're 'waiting' 4.5 hours total for all of them. The benefit to 'doubling up' with shorter stand-by lines would seriously depend on how savvy and planning-oriented the DAS party was, which I feel like would skew heavily toward the legitimate users. And a savvy non-DAS planner would know all the tricks too. So if they rope-dropped 7DMT, and did Peter Pan just before closing, and waited until Space was a 45 minute wait, then they'd reduce the DAS person's time-advantage. It's very different from being an immediate front of the line pass.

If someone can think of a better system to keep out 'fakers' while not hurting the people who actually need it, I'd love to hear it. (And YES requiring a doctor's note would absolutely mean legitimate people would be unable to use DAS and NO it is not any guarantee that fakers would not still get in.)

 

[SteveMouse]

Even if the law allowed this, I still don’t see how it would help, since not everyone with a given disability requires the same accommodations.

Not to mention telling you the name of the condition I have doesn’t describe my needs. Since only about 300 people in the US have the condition, it’s not one that most/many people are familiar with. It has a word similar to “progressive” in it, but that really only allows you to infer that it’s not static.

In my particular case, it’s pretty obvious that something is wrong, but most people don’t have a clue. In 50+ years I have met two people who recognized the condition. One was an author for Atlantic Magazine who was working on a book and article about the condition (we’d run into each other at a conference). The other was a family member of someone else with the condition. I knew the other person with the condition (who wasn’t with them) but did not know the individual I met.

 

[OurBigTrip]

I know Six Flags does it and probably others, but what they offer grants you access with potential for little or no wait. So even though they say it's not intended to skip the line, it essentially works like their GOFAST pass which has a monetary value.

Asking for a doctor's note is asking for proof. Just because they say "don't state the disability" doesn't mean it isn't proof. That is simply covering their butts in that they may not be the most careful in protecting the privacy of such documents. It really has nothing to do with making the note allowable under the ADA.

True, they charge for all of their Flash Passes, even the lowest tier one that works like a DAS, so that is probably why they can do it. Plus the info goes to a third party rather than Six Flags themselves.

 

[MS_Warrior]

No, but they can ask for a doctors note if they choose to, so long as it doesn't tell what the disability is.

I just read an article about Six Flags. A woman’s doctor didn’t get specific enough about how her disability limits her, and they denied her access. I can see this being a problem. As a retired nurse, most doctors would probably write a rather generic letter - for a charge.

I don’t have a problem explaining my disability (though I don’t use a DAS - just a wheelchair), however the doctor’s note is another issue.

For one thing, doctor’s notes can be faked, and even if not faked, I’m sure you could find an internet doc that would write a letter without knowing the patient - for a price. If someone truly wants to defraud the system, they will.

Disney’s system works better than most, because of the return times, there really is no big advantage. I cannot imagine why someone would fake it when it really doesn’t give much of an advantage.

 

[Evita_W]

Stating the disability would not do anything to cut down on abuse.
First of all, people willing to get DAS knowing they don’t have a disability are very likely to be willing to lie and say they have whatever disability they need to lie about to get it.
Second, people who have the very same condition/disability may have very different needs. Some people with cerebral palsy (which my DD has) can walk with little issue, some use a wheelchair (which they don’t need DAS to use in line), and some have additional needs that are not met by using a wheelchair (which they use DAS to meet).
Third, the ADA says you can be asked about your needs (which is why WDW Guest Relations CMs can ask what concerns the guest has with waiting in line).

Many people assume guests using scooters or wheelchairs get an advantage, but the only ‘advantage’ is having a place to sit in line while waiting. DAS specifically says it’s not needed for guests whose needs are met by using a wheelchair/ECV in line.

There have been abusers and influencers since the beginning. People were selling the old paper cards from the previous program (GAC = Guest Assistance Card) on eBay. I also saw blog posts from a pregnant influencer who wrote about getting a GAC by saying she was pregnant and couldn’t wait in line (at the same time, she wrote about traveling all over the word, including some pretty intense hikes).
Because there are no Fastpasses right now, there are probably more people without disabilities trying to use DAS, but I doubt it’s as huge a number as some people believe.

Yes, there have been abusers for a long time, even back when Disneyland did require a doctor's note to get what was then termed a special assistance pass, there were abusers. In fact, percentage wise it was likely higher than when they stopped requiring them. Basically, there were businesses all around the park offering things like "Skip the lines for $10, ask me how." And basically for $10 they would give you a fake doctor's note. This led to an increase in awareness of the program and more people getting the passes.

 

[Evita_W]

True, they charge for all of their Flash Passes, even the lowest tier one that works like a DAS, so that is probably why they can do it. Plus the info goes to a third party rather than Six Flags themselves.

Actually, they still have to provide a system of equal accomodations without a doctor's note under ADA, so there is something there, but you have to ask for it and point it out that ADA requires them to allow it. But the accomodations must allow for safe access equal to what any other guest can get without paying extra, so in other words if guest A has to wait 60 minutes and do stairs, guest B who can't do stairs or stand in the line die to say sin issues, would still need to wait 60 minutes somewhere and then be given an alternative entrance to use.

 

[OurBigTrip]

I just read an article about Six Flags. A woman’s doctor didn’t get specific enough about how her disability limits her, and they denied her access. I can see this being a problem. As a retired nurse, most doctors would probably write a rather generic letter - for a charge.

I don’t have a problem explaining my disability (though I don’t use a DAS - just a wheelchair), however the doctor’s note is another issue.

For one thing, doctor’s notes can be faked, and even if not faked, I’m sure you could find an internet doc that would write a letter without knowing the patient - for a price. If someone truly wants to defraud the system, they will.

Disney’s system works better than most, because of the return times, there really is no big advantage. I cannot imagine why someone would fake it when it really doesn’t give much of an advantage.

I agree that DAS is a better system, no question. But I don't think that Six Flags looks at the doctor's note...it's with a third party who makes the determination, but no idea what criteria (if any) they use to validate the notes, info, etc.

 

[OurBigTrip]

Actually, they still have to provide a system of equal accomodations without a doctor's note under ADA, so there is something there, but you have to ask for it and point it out that ADA requires them to allow it. But the accomodations must allow for safe access equal to what any other guest can get without paying extra, so in other words if guest A has to wait 60 minutes and do stairs, guest B who can't do stairs or stand in the line die to say sin issues, would still need to wait 60 minutes somewhere and then be given an alternative entrance to use.

According to the Six Flags website, they are fully compliant with ADA and HIPAA. As lanejudy noted above, it may be because the accommodations provided have a price attached for non-disabled guests.

 

[OurBigTrip]

Or, they could be full of poop as well, and they aren't really compliant - always a possibility!

 

[MS_Warrior]

Or, they could be full of poop as well, and they aren't really compliant - always a possibility!

An article I just read by a disabled attorney said he fully expects to see law suits in the near future because of the way they are doing the passes. No clue if they are following ADA or not.

 

[Gordo Gato]

There's been a LOT of talk in this thread about 'just' wanting to shame the 'abusers'

Sorry. I just asked if I could ask to bypass the stairs at splash mountain without a DAS. I didn’t mean to offend you or anyone else. Maybe I shouldn’t have asked for clarification from what a CM told me.

 

[MS_Warrior]

Sorry. I just asked if I could ask to bypass the stairs at splash mountain without a DAS. I didn’t mean to offend you.

In the past, I wasn’t allowed to bypass stair on the railroad. Of course, that was many years ago. I don’t know how they do it nowadays.

 

[MediumSizedMermaid]

Sorry. I just asked if I could ask to bypass the stairs at splash mountain without a DAS. I didn’t mean to offend you or anyone else. Maybe I shouldn’t have asked for clarification from what a CM told me.

I was responding to a repeated trend of people saying they could tell that many people were abusing DAS by looking at them. Not to anyone in particular. And that's a totally fair question to ask. No worries!

 

[Lilsia]

An article I just read by a disabled attorney said he fully expects to see law suits in the near future because of the way they are doing the passes. No clue if they are following ADA or not.

What have FP got to do with DAS? I know, absolutely nothing. It sounds like a bunch of wasteful, frivolous lawsuits against some deep pockets. And can you link that article?