Does David's tell you if the renter cancels?

[foreUT]

Now David’s wants me to refund money to a renter who decided to check out early and no one let me know. All of my points are gone and they want me to refund the renter who voluntarily left early. I did not get a refund of the points from dvc and the reservation is over, so there is no chance of getting them back now. My points are gone and I am supposed to make the renter whole?

The more I think about this, the more it seems like the broker's response to a chargeback. You can't successfully proceed w a chargeback in FL if you did stay in a lodging (as originally represented) bc defrauding an innkeeper is a felony. But, if you left early, claiming the amenities were not available, that could pass the bar for a chargeback. If that's the case, only the two nights without parks would be the (limited) plausible relief the renter should be requesting. And, that should be the broker's headache, IMO. How anyone could stay and then expect to be paid for doing so is unconscionable.

 

[Friendlyadvice2]

Once the Intermediary Agreement is accepted by David's and the owners points are placed in the rental queue, David's responds with an email indicating such and also provides HIS interpretation and intent of some of the contract items. Based on some of the discussions here, when the 30% is payable has become a gray-area for some. FWIW, this is an excerpt from David's email with his interpretation of when he should pay the final 30% of the owners money (I've bolded the word "date") and it does vary from the wording in the contract:

6. On the date of check-in, we will send you the balance of the funds owing to you, also via your PayPal account.


Many owners have experienced or reported, including myself in the past, that the final 30% was paid on the date of check-in, well before most DVC rooms are ready to be occupied and arguably well before any renter likely would have actually physically checked-in.

In addition, this taken directly from David's website under the information for owners where he solicits points from the owners:

The balance of funds owing to you is paid on the day of guest check-in. Reservations are NON-REFUNDABLE, so you get your money regardless of whether or not the guest checks into the resort. We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival. You are committed to keeping your dues and mortgages current so as not to harm any reservations.

David's interpretation of when the final 30% should be paid and why he withholds it to begin with, is clear.

I've previously posted my views, but I really don't find the gray-area in these contracts/transactions in regards to any agreement between David's and the owner that many others seem to be struggling with. Of course David's is going to send out emails with conflicting information in attempts to posture to save his future business as I've already pointed out. Those emails should not be taken as what is legal in regards to his contract with owners. When I've rented in the past with David's (rarely), I sure as heck was not just paying David's $4.50/point for no reason; owners don't HAVE to and can easily rent on their own, and if I thought for a second that, short of David's breaching the contract (as he has repeatedly done currently), that the 30% final payment was ever at risk, then I would not have rented my points. This is David's business, legally it's his requirement to rectify.

With all of this being said, again, I treat all reservations for renters as my own and would do anything and everything in my control to help those renters and rectify the situation!!

 

[Maddiesmum03]

Question for owners who are rescheduling. If the new reservation requires more points, are you getting additional funds from the renter? If it requires fewer points, are you returning funds to the renter?

I have no other points to play with. My 2020 points were used to make these March and April bookings, my 2021 points have been used to make two further rentals early next year. So re booking for the same or fewer points is the only option. I am not in a position to return funds.

 

[Maddiesmum03]

I think he's holding back the 30% because per contract that is awarded on check-in and since the renter can't "check-in" then per contract David's doesn't owe the owner the last 30%. And since David's collected the full payment up front from the renter, then the right thing to do is at least give the renter back the 30% that he has already collected. And he could frost the refund by including his commission in the refund.

My renters COULD have checked in on Monday, the resort was still open and that money wasn’t really for David’s to hold onto under those circumstances.

 

[Sandisw]

Once the Intermediary Agreement is accepted by David's and the owners points are placed in the rental queue, David's responds with an email indicating such and also provides HIS interpretation and intent of some of the contract items. Based on some of the discussions here, when the 30% is payable has become a gray-area for some. FWIW, this is an excerpt from David's email with his interpretation of when he should pay the final 30% of the owners money (I've bolded the word "date") and it does vary from the wording in the contract:

6. On the date of check-in, we will send you the balance of the funds owing to you, also via your PayPal account.


Many owners have experienced or reported, including myself in the past, that the final 30% was paid on the date of check-in, well before most DVC rooms are ready to be occupied and arguably well before any renter likely would have actually physically checked-in.

In addition, this taken directly from David's website under the information for owners where he solicits points from the owners:

The balance of funds owing to you is paid on the day of guest check-in. Reservations are NON-REFUNDABLE, so you get your money regardless of whether or not the guest checks into the resort. We hold back the final 30% to ensure that the guests have a room on arrival. You are committed to keeping your dues and mortgages current so as not to harm any reservations.

David's interpretation of when the final 30% should be paid and why he withholds it to begin with, is clear.

I've previously posted my views, but I really don't find the gray-area in these contracts/transactions in regards to any agreement between David's and the owner that many others seem to be struggling with. Of course David's is going to send out emails with conflicting information in attempts to posture to save his future business as I've already pointed out. Those emails should not be taken as what is legal in regards to his contract with owners. When I've rented in the past with David's (rarely), I sure as heck was not just paying David's $4.50/point for no reason; owners don't HAVE to and can easily rent on their own, and if I thought for a second that, short of David's breaching the contract (as he has repeatedly done currently), that the 30% final payment was ever at risk, then I would not have rented my points. This is David's business, legally it's his requirement to rectify.

With all of this being said, again, I treat all reservations for renters as my own and would do anything and everything in my control to help those renters and rectify the situation!!

I definitely agree thst check in can’t be defined as when the renter shows up.

I was curious, though, because if A resort is closed, then there is no check in day, if people are reading the contracts that non refundable means just that, then isn’t it possible that language can also be taken literally in this current situation,

Could the broker claim, that he is not in breach of contract, because with the resort closed, that aspect of the contract is not being fulfilled?

I can certainly see how it could be a grey area, Of course, if the broker doesn’t release those funds, even if the owner objects, it is not going to go over well for future businesses.

 

[dclpluto]

David is making it harder for the renter and owner. I’m a owner and got contracts through David’s. I have a renter checking in later this month. David doesn’t want the owner to contract them. Let get this done let me reschedule for them, but no I can’t David’s doesn’t want the owners to contact davids. The longer he waits the harder it’s going to be. I understand this is a hard time for David but get this done David. Have people working overtime or whatever it takes.

 

[Amymouse13]

David is making it harder for the renter and owner. I’m a owner and got contracts through David’s. I have a renter checking in later this month. David doesn’t want the owner to contract them. Let get this done let me reschedule for them, but no I can’t David’s doesn’t want the owners to contact davids. The longer he waits the harder it’s going to be. I understand this is a hard time for David but get this done David. Have people working overtime or whatever it takes.

Do owners not have contact information? They can want you to not contact but they can't forbid it unless that was in your agreement right?

 

[Friendlyadvice2]

Could the broker claim, that he is not in breach of contract, because with the resort closed, that aspect of the contract is not being fulfilled?

David can claim whatever he wants, but his contract with owners says nothing about resorts closing:

The balance of funds owing to you is paid on the day of guest check-in. Reservations are NON-REFUNDABLE, so you get your money regardless of whether or not the guest checks into the resort.


The day of check-in doesn't change or go away and is not dependent on the guest checking in, per David's own words. Whether or not a guest can check-in is irrelevant with David's contract with the owners. I don't know what he has in place with any contracts between he and the renters. If David's was concerned with the resorts being closed due to a pandemic, then he should have put that verbiage in the contract with owners, so owners would know that they may not get their money in the unlikely event that happens; not pretend that it was there all along. They could have then decided if they still wanted to rent their points with David's. I haven't seen that verbiage yet in any of the owners contracts.

The owners are required to provide a verifiable reservation and keep that reservation in place by not cancelling it on their own or by compromising their membership. Owners are not responsible for something outside their control.......as much as David's may want them to be.

 

[dclpluto]

Do owners not have contact information? They can want you to not contact but they can't forbid it unless that was in your agreement right?

davids doesn’t want the owners to contact the renters

 

[Marionnette]

Do owners not have contact information? They can want you to not contact but they can't forbid it unless that was in your agreement right?

Let’s assume that owners do have the renter’s contact info. If they reach out to the renter and the renter wants a refund, how is that handled? What if they want to reschedule but the new reservation costs more points? How would the payment be handled?

Going around the intermediary can open up a whole new can of worms.

 

[Sandisw]

David can claim whatever he wants, but his contract with owners says nothing about resorts closing:

The balance of funds owing to you is paid on the day of guest check-in. Reservations are NON-REFUNDABLE, so you get your money regardless of whether or not the guest checks into the resort.


The day of check-in doesn't change or go away and is not dependent on the guest checking in, per David's own words. Whether or not a guest can check-in is irrelevant with David's contract with the owners. I don't know what he has in place with any contracts between he and the renters. If David's was concerned with the resorts being closed due to a pandemic, then he should have put that verbiage in the contract with owners, so owners would know that they may not get their money in the unlikely event that happens; not pretend that it was there all along. They could have then decided if they still wanted to rent their points with David's. I haven't seen that verbiage yet in any of the owners contracts.

The owners are required to provide a verifiable reservation and keep that reservation in place by not cancelling it on their own or by compromising their membership. Owners are not responsible for something outside their control.......as much as David's may want them to be.

I guess that would mean that if it is withheld, which is seems to be, an owners would have to try to get it from him via filing a claim,

Like I said, my renters dont check in until August, so the resoet should be open by then.

But, if things don’t go well during this time, its possible there won’t be any funds for him to send me come August if he loses the fight with CC companies. And I have read posts, here and elsewhere that people are filing those claims,

 

[CraigInPA]

I think he's holding back the 30% because per contract that is awarded on check-in and since the renter can't "check-in" then per contract David's doesn't owe the owner the last 30%. And since David's collected the full payment up front from the renter, then the right thing to do is at least give the renter back the 30% that he has already collected. And he could frost the refund by including his commission in the refund.

The owner rented his points in what was represented as a no-refund contract. That contract calls for the owner to keep the reservation open and ready for the renter. In order to make it harder on the owner to unscrupulously cancel the reservation, David's withholds 30% until the check-in day. That money is released on check-in day, whether the renter checks in or not.

David's is withholding the 30% because he needs to have a cash reserve for the mountain of charge backs that are going to land on him from renters whose reservations went poof with the closure, didn't purchase insurance, and are either not interested in re-booking or can't get the dates they want for a re-booking.

The "right thing to do" would be to pay the owner the 30%, work with those owners whose points can possibly be re-used to book new vacation stays, and refund those renters who cannot be accommodated with a re-booking. However, that is not the likely scenario due to the amount of cash required to issue refunds to renters.

 

[Friendlyadvice2]

I guess that would mean that if it is withheld, which is seems to be, an owners would have to try to get it from him via filing a claim,

Yes, and Sandi, with your previous work experience, you know that this is easier said than done.

 

[NY Pirate Princess]

I rented through Davids with a contract signed last summer, 5 nights at the Beach Club in a two bedroom suite with another family. Check out date was March 14th, one day before the parks closed. I continue to be grateful that we didn't get caught up in the mess of closure. I know that my rental is not refundable. I don't think I can buy CFAR trip insurance in New York State. I don't think I will be renting from David's again. I will either finally take the plunge and buy my own contract or head back to a value or moderate.

I think David's doesn't want me to talk to owners because then I could rent directly. We go once every two years with another family and rent a two bedroom suite at various properties. Owner would know we treat their property like our own and I would know owner would work with me if there was an emergency.

Hearing this sort of stuff makes my heart break just a little more.

 

[foreUT]

I guess that would mean that if it is withheld, which is seems to be, an owners would have to try to get it from him via filing a claim,

Like I said, my renters dont check in until August, so the resoet should be open by then.

But, if things don’t go well during this time, its possible there won’t be any funds for him to send me come August if he loses the fight with CC companies. And I have read posts, here and elsewhere that people are filing those claims,

Wow, Sandi, that would definitely be something of concern for any Owner looking at a future reservation. Such a precarious position to be placed. Hoping for the best for Owners and Renters.

 

[Sandisw]

Yes, and Sandi, with your previous work experience, you know that this is easier said than done.

Yup. It is why I was curious as to others thoughts on thst clause. I went in to this thinking it’s an automatic null and void situation.

Now, i have more information that may not be the case, So, I’m planning right now that I won’t get that money. I will consider it a loss, and as you said, it would be too hard to worry,

What I won’t do is cancel the reservation for the renter if they want to keep it or reschedule if I can.

 

[aoconnor]

I rented 63 of my points through David's for a reservation that now will be canceled. I used 40 current UY points and borrowed 23. I can bank the 40 current UY points no problem.. the 23 borrowed now present an issue since I won't be able to use them and probably won't be able to rent them.

I've received $640 from David's so far.. is it wrong to only return $306 to the renter? ($640 I have received, less $333 of lost points (23 pts x $14.50). I feel terrible for the renter to lose money but the whole situation is out of either of our control...

 

[marx]

David's is withholding the 30% because he needs to have a cash reserve for the mountain of charge backs that are going to land on him from renters whose reservations went poof with the closure, didn't purchase insurance, and are either not interested in re-booking or can't get the dates they want for a re-booking.

I think this is certainly part of it. Added to this he is likely not getting new reservations bringing in the money to pay his costs.

 

[Yinn]

I rented 63 of my points through David's for a reservation that now will be canceled. I used 40 current UY points and borrowed 23. I can bank the 40 current UY points no problem.. the 23 borrowed now present an issue since I won't be able to use them and probably won't be able to rent them.

I've received $640 from David's so far.. is it wrong to only return $306 to the renter? ($640 I have received, less $333 of lost points (23 pts x $14.50). I feel terrible for the renter to lose money but the whole situation is out of either of our control...

If your reservation was cancelled due to resort closure, then your borrowed points can be returned to the original UY. You shouldn't be out anything in that case.

 

[Cyberc1978]

I rented 63 of my points through David's for a reservation that now will be canceled. I used 40 current UY points and borrowed 23. I can bank the 40 current UY points no problem.. the 23 borrowed now present an issue since I won't be able to use them and probably won't be able to rent them.

I've received $640 from David's so far.. is it wrong to only return $306 to the renter? ($640 I have received, less $333 of lost points (23 pts x $14.50). I feel terrible for the renter to lose money but the whole situation is out of either of our control...

IMO that’s between the renter and David’s. You could offer to reschedule depending on when the points expire. If the renter can’t go before the points expire then it’s very unfortunate but IMO it’s not your fault or the renter for that matter.

I would not refund.

IMO this is force majeure and no one is to blame. The renter should have gotten travelers insurance CFAR.