Early Entry

[kenjean]

a parade that is a good or better than the MGM and Epcot offerings - quite a lot to keep many people busy for more than half a day, especially if you have kids.

I have an interesting reply to this. I have two daughters, ages 5 and 1.75. We live 2 hours away from WDW. On our last 3 trips, we have never left EPCOT. I have read posts in this thread that people now consider EPCOT a half day park. We do not agree, and neither do our kids.

I'll give a for example. The food rocks show in the land. One of those small, hidden away attractions. But it is done with wit and charm, and my daughters love it. We have to see it two times a trip. I like it too. The Peach Boys, Pita Gabriel, The Refrigerator Police, all singing about good nutrition. All the songs were re-recorded by the original artists (I think). Very well done with imagination.

This is what I think AK is missing. The little out-of-the way experiences that a lot of time, effort, and imagination was spent on. Stumbling onto a memorable experience while exploring the park. The first time I went to Tomorrowland I went to ride Space Mountain, but fell in love with Timekeeper and COP.

I don't see this as much in the studios, and it is practically non-existent in AK. I remember when AK first opened Joe Rhode (sp) was on some TV show saying how there was a "secret" passage somewhere in Africa. A poor attempt to capture the spirit of adventure in MK and EPCOT.

I agree with AV and others that say Disney has just gotten too cheap and lazy.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Ahhh, but kenjean you hit the nail on the head - and I was hoping someone would have your exact response to my post. Epcot is no more a half day park than AK. You make very good points about Epcot that I can't disagree with. Our 3 yo DD loved Food Rocks as well. I can make equally good points about AK. I believe it is wrong for anyone to say that any of the parks are half day parks. If you take the time to really enjoy what each has to offer they will take a lot of time to tour. In reality, putting taste, likes, dislikes, etc. aside and if you experience everything, I would say that AK and MGM are 1 and a half day parks, Epcot a 2 day park, and the MK 2 and a half, all minimums.

I have read posts in this thread that people now consider EPCOT a half day park. We do not agree, and neither do our kids.

There is an important distinction in my statement about Epcot being a half day park that you have to note. Just as AV would consider AK a half day FOR HIM, I might consider Epcot a half day FOR US, and as you point out in your post, "WE" do not agree. It is all personal and it is unfair and misleading for someone to let their personal tastes lead them to make a general statement about a park - as I think you are trying to point out.

As for points about the AK, well - sometime you should go and really spend the time to look around. I would submit that there is more attention to detail in the AK than in either MGM or Epcot. The problem is that not many people slow down to realize it. People read things like 'AK is a half day park', they get there, rush from ride to ride, hit a show, get hot and annoyed by a crowded walkway, and leave - never taking the time to enjoy all the little out of the way experiences that are right under their noses. Granted, AK might not be for everyone, especially if you don't have kids, but it has a ton to offer.

The little out-of-the way experiences that a lot of time, effort, and imagination was spent on. Stumbling onto a memorable experience while exploring the park.

I don't see this as much in the studios, and it is practically non-existent in AK.

Ever go down into the seating area behind the Flame Tree BBQ. Sit in the pavillion overlooking the lake, feel the breeze, hear the birds, sit by the pond watching the ducks, RELAX (who ever takes the time to do that at AK?). While you are down there, look at the architecture of the pavillions, the animal carvings and theming. Take the time to really notice the theming throughout the entire park. If you take the time to appreciate it, it is incredible. Next, consider the attention to detail in the plantings, millions of dollars of plantings indiginous to the lands. Who takes the time to even realize these, much less appreciate them. All of the buildings throughout the AK have great architectural details. How many people walk right past the monkey island in Asia as they run to Kali River Rapids. Don't get me going on the walking trails - how many people give these the time? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I have that at my zoo. Well, no you don't. Disney still just does things better. Drums in Africa, bells in Asia, plenty of other little things I don't have the time to go on about. The Tree of Life - how often do people really spend the time to walk around it up close and explore and search instead of just glancing as you walk by. All around the Tree of Life there are more interesting things to see. The awakening, how many people even know what this is? The walkways that everyone compains about being too crowded - ever consider that maybe they were designed that way on purpose. Do they have wide boulevards that don't get crowded in Africa and Asia? Have you realized yet that I haven't even mentioned a show, ride or land yet. Just appreciating the AK could take a half a day. I could go on, but I won't.

Now, I'm not trying to win converts to the AK. On the contrary, stay away - it gives us a less crowded park. However, if you really give it a chance, AK can and will impress you.

 

[Bstanley]

It appears that the DIS community has discovered a new corollary to Heisenberg's uncertainty principle (the more you know about an electron's position the less you know about it's velocity and vvs).

In effect Heisenberg's principle says: It is the observer as much as the observed that reveals Reality.

AK to me (and my family) is a gem, a wonderful example of true Disney Magic. It has detail beyond description (far beyond EPCOT and The Studios as has already been observed), marvelous shows, great opportunites to get up close and personal with the animals, fantastic CMs you can actually interact with (instead of them just loading you into some nifty mechanical gizmo), and oh yeah a number of fine attractions

It is a wonderful complement to the other parks - and that's the key - Why would Disney need to build another MK? Or another EPCOT, etc? Would it be nice to add an Indy type ride? Yeah it would, and I imagine that there are plans to expand. But frankly - if Disney does try to turn AK into something else by adding some grotesque giant roller-coaster I might have to leave Car #1...

P.S. I'll predict 8,000,000 people will visit AK this year. That's a whole lotta people voting with their wallets.

 

[All Aboard]

One thing is for sure about the Rumors and News board. Don't open a thread expecting to read anything about the title post. That's sure to die very early.

AK-The-Half-Day park again, eh? What bothers me most about this topic when it pops up is that AK defenders (hasn't really happened in this thread --yet--) often tell the half-dayers "you just don't get AK, so I wouldn't expect you to stay there any longer than a half day."

In order to "get" AK and stay there for much over a half day, you must embrace AK as a zoo. Despite WDW's efforts to get you to believe it's naht. The elements that keep you there more than a half day (the one's listed specifically by raidermatt) are, in fact, the zoo elements. Very well pulled off zoo elements, but zoo elements nonetheless. Seems folks don't go to WDW to go to the zoo.

The most darning evidence in favor of the public's opinion that it was a half day park was the crowd flow in the first couple of years. When the park was regularly open from 8-6, by 3pm AK was nearly completely empty most times of the year. AP discounts on dining have been few in the past several years. Yet, the "after 4pm" discount at Flame Tree, Pizzafari & Tusker pressed on as an effort to keep folks in the park longer.

Unfortunately for us (actually, unfortunately for Disney), AK has taken on a been-there-done-that stigma. It has fallen off the three-day weekend lineup. In the past, it was our last-day park. Even then, we were finished with what we wanted to do before we really had planned to get in the car and head home. In the last year, our last-day has been stolen by the folks up the street at Universal.

 

[daannzzz]

"""Ever go down into the seating area behind the Flame Tree BBQ. Sit in the pavillion overlooking the lake, feel the breeze, hear the birds, sit by the pond watching the ducks, RELAX (who ever takes the time to do that at AK?). """
This is my favorite spot in any Disney Park. Don't forget the soothing music that is piped in here too,
This alone takes up an hour of my day at the AK as I am continously drawn back to this spot...with Coke in hand I must admit.
When i first went to WDW in 96 I had read the Unofficial Guid by Bob Sehlinger who said you could do Disney MGM Studios in 3/4 of a day. I found the Studios to be my least favorite park ( won;t go into that here) but if we had tried to see everything of substance it would have taken a day and a half. I alwasy do at least a day and 3/4 at Epcot and can spend a full day at the AK.

 

[All Aboard]

Ever go down into the seating area behind the Flame Tree BBQ. Sit in the pavillion overlooking the lake, feel the breeze, hear the birds, sit by the pond watching the ducks, RELAX (who ever takes the time to do that at AK?).

Truly wonderul, agreed. BUT, that's not what the vast majority of WDW travellers want to do with their trips. That's not what they want to do with their $250 park hoppers. And certainly not what they want to drop $50 for a one day pass to do.

8 million would be the first uptick for AK since inception. I just don't think Disney invested that much capital to draw 8 million guests. AV likely has a better scoop, but I seem to recall WDW hoping to grow from 10 million at the start.

 

[Kuzco]

While I have never spent a full day of my WDW vacation at DAK, I do believe that you could spend open to close at the park and be able to get an entire day's worth of fun out of your admission.

But once again, it all depends on what each person likes and dislikes as far as theme parks go. Not everything at DAK is for me, so I do not spend a full day there. If I only had one day to spend at WDW, I definitely would not chose DAK.

So my input is that DAK can be a full day park, but for a lot of people it isn't. Not too helpful, but I thought I'd throw in my two cents as well

 

[DisDuck]

Ok first to BobO.. this is getting to be a bit redundent. If AK is 5-6 hour park to you that that makes it a half-day park then IOA which is a 5-6 hour park for me makes that a half-day park. See the theme here.. subjectivity.

My family finds AK to be the kind of quiet, beautifully done (& look at) counterpoint to the hustle & bustle of the other 3 parks. We don't rush thru the trails. We don't rush from one area to another (unless running late for a show).

gcurling.. yes the elements mentioned are more zoo like than theme park like but having now been to San Diego Zoo & Wild Animal Kingdom, San Diego.. AK beats those 'zoo's hands-down. No contest. As I walked from one animal/land area to another in San Diego there was no themeing, no characters, no CM's interacting with the guests. No parades, no landscaping. It was Just a Very Nice Zoo where the majority of the animals are in the open instead of behind bars. AK is more than a 'zoo'. It is an immersive experience if one cares to become involved.

Back to thread.. My losing that 1 hour at AK (& I have been there when opened at 8am) will not kill my enjoyment. Nor will it make me rush around. It is known as pacing. This trip I plan to go back to Conservation Station and yet still do everything because of pacing and planning.

 

[daannzzz]

"""Maybe that is it's biggest problem. People want to DO more than OBSERVE""

I think that the people on this board are a bit different in our Love of Disne as opposed to everyday patrons. A huge majority of the people that go to Disney parks go for the "rides" and enjoy the small touches (sometimes) that they come upon without knowing that they are enjoying it.
I will admit that for people who want to do Disney rides, and then move on to do more rides, the AK is a disappointment. Disney needs to be able to fit themselves inbetween these two groups and has done really well in the past. I think they are starting to loose that focus though.

 

[klwally]

If you do any park in 1/2 day or even 3/4 a day and never return, you really have missed out on a lot. There are tons of hidden treasures in each park. Because I have young kids, we never spend a full day anywhere, we will do 1/2 somewhere, do a short hotel rest, and then spend 1/2 at another park. But we usually are there for at least 8 days. Since 1997 we've gone 1-2 a year and I STILL find things to do in the parks I've NEVER done before, or never seen. It's so fun to find these new things to do and to see

My big complaint about AK - is that it seems that no matter the temperature outside, it feels 95 degrees there all the time. I swear they pump heat in! And the walkways are so narrow and there is no way for the airflow to get around, that it often feels over crowded when it's not.

 

[DisneyKidds]

Greg - I would bet you dollars to donuts that some of the folks who claim AK to be a half day park have their favorite place to just sit in the MK and take in all the wonderful sights and sounds, and the general Magical assault on all of their senses.

The people who go to WDW once every five years may not be looking for this. However, I bet all the folks who go once a year or more actually seek it out and are more than happy to plunk their $50 down for it - and it really isn't $50 because many have AP's anyway.

Which group do you think WDW really wants to market to and attract the most? They want WDW to become part of people's families. A place to create and relive memories, to be a tradition passed down from one generation to another. That is a hugh part of the Magic they are still successful with, IMHO.

 

[Bstanley]

Just FYI to all - Amusement Business Magazine believes AK had over 8 million visitors in 1999 and 2000.

And frankly if Disney isn't able to make a profit on a park that has 8 million folks a year wandering through the gates then they might as well get into a whole other line of work...

 

[Another Voice]

Aye, there’s the rub – if you provide mass entertainment you kind of have to provide entertainment for the masses.

For my perspective, the problem with Animal Kingdom isn’t that there isn’t enough to do or that the guests are too frantic to stop and smell the flowers – it’s a problem with unmet expectations.

Most people go to WDW expecting to see theme parks. You know, rides, attractions, snack foods, screaming children in long lines. These people are not expecting to spend their days sitting on the back porch of a restaurant looking at the water (without boats) or studying the fiberglass animal shapes stapled to the souvenirs shop’s roof. These people expect entertainment, thrills and activities they can’t do at home. Animal Kingdom does not deliver enough of these kinds of activities for the majority of this group.

On the other hand, there are the people going to expect to see animals. I count myself in this group – I enjoy the San Diego Zoo because I go for the animals, not for themeing, not for cast member interaction, and certainly not to watch some sweaty kid run around dressed up like a cartoon panda. I want to see the animals; I want to learn about the animals, I want to be among the animals.

And I expected to see animals at Animal Kingdom. But my actual experience was “there’s an anteater in a cage beside the walkway – this must be the safari ride – there’s a hippopotamus – ‘Do You See BIG RED in the Aeroplane!!!????’ – stop the bus and let’s look at the animals – ‘The Poachers Have Found BIG RED!!!!!!!!!!’ – stop talking about a fake elephant, there’s a real one right there. Tell me about her – ‘We’re leaving the game preserve to SAVE BIG RED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!’ – Wait, what happened to the animals, why are we driving so fast? – ‘We’ve saved LITTLE RED!!!!! Remember that poaching is BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!’ - That’s it?

Yes, there are some nice bits in places like the old Gorilla Falls trail, but there is nothing really different from what most modern zoos have. But the most damning part is that there is absolutely nothing in all of Animal Kingdom that even comes close to what the Monterey Bay Aquarium has achieved. No ride will ever match the complete awe that MBA achieved with the Mid Ocean exhibit; no prancing character musical show will ever come close to the utter alien beauty of the column of floating, irradiance jelly fish.

Why could not Disney have at least equaled that? It would have been so easy for them, and so much more rewarding for everyone from the guests to the accountants. For me, my expectation of seeing the wonder of the natural world is not fulfilled – and this place holds less than a half-day’s interest for me.

No matter how many relaxing moments the place might offer.

 

[All Aboard]

It is an immersive experience if one cares to become involved.

But isn't that putting a requirement on the guest? A requirement to enjoy it a certain way?

Just FYI to all - Amusement Business Magazine believes AK had over 8 million visitors in 1999 and 2000.

Yes, and 1999 was a bigger year than 2000. And, last year it dipped to 7.7 million. My point was that that number needed to be on a steady INcline. Plus, I'm pretty sure the 99 and 00 numbers were WAY below Disney's initial projections.

I'd bet many of the repeat visitors (like Betsy and I) return for the "overlooked attractions" as much as re-riding the same rides.

Perhaps, but don't you just get one chance to make a first impression? I could be way off, but I'd bet that doesn't synch up with the opinion of the majority of folks that experience AK for the first time. "Next time let's enjoy the hidden stuff more" is probably only uttered by a select few. Other than me, we are a fairly sophisticated bunch here (no, I'm really NOT laughing as I type).

I think if I lived in Central Florida I'd spend much more time at AK (not just total time, but as a proportion of all time spent at WDW - or theme parks in general.) I think part of the problem for me is that my trips are relatively short (2-3 days) AK just gets lost in the shuffle. We've got Metrozoo, Parrot Jungle and Fairchild Tropical Gardens in Miami - and annual passes to all three. Even on our 9 day stays each January, AK gets a half a day from us - that's it.

AV, I wish that there were certain safari vehicles that would do the loop without the audio, and more slowly.

 

[Bob O]

The people who go to Ak say with their feet it is a half day park!!! iF it wasnt a half day park it wouldnt be as empty as it is in the late afternoon. If their was enough to do their to warrant a full day then people would be their a full day. When i go in early dec and their is no lines and you get their when the park opens you can do most attractions easily in 3 hours!!! And a ride like Dinosaur several times included.
Adding thrill coasters doesnt have to mean alot of noise. They can be placed indoors or like at SW they can fill the tubing with sand to reduce the noise which is done on Kraken.
DisDuck when i have been to IOA it wasnt any where near as empty as Ak has been in the late afternoon/early evening, people were in the park going to attractions which werent all walk ons which has been the case at AK. And obviuosly even disney was/is aware its not a full day park as they feel the need to add addtractions(even if they are cheap carny knock off's).
Now i havent been to San Diego Zoo but will this dec. hopefully, but from zoo's i have been too like Colombus Zoo as a example or Brookfield Zoo there zoo's were far superior in terms of variety of animals and explaining animal lifetsyles/habits etc. Disney should have made Ak a full zoo or a theme park but how it is now it fails in both. Since when are serious zoo's suppossed to have people in costumes walking around??? Isnt the purpose of a zoo to see the animals and have a GREAT variety of them??

 

[Bob O]

Now even though my posts surely dont indicate it i like Ak alot and they have one of my favorite attractions KS. But from what i heard about AK prior to its opening was that BK was a main part of the park, the animals that are and never were( i know i goofed that up ). And thats what has me upset with the park, and the fact it was opened intentionally not completed to make money without customer concern.
They should have opened the park fully from day one and not scam their guests with the promise of more later, and then when later comes do we get BK NO!!! We get cheap carny games and rides!!
The only comments about the zoo aspect was becasue some posted that AK is better than zoo's(San Diege ZOO). And from being one who always goes to a zoo when i visit a city Ak doesnt have anywhere near the variety of animals to compete with major city zoo's IMHO.
In 3 hourse we easily at least did KS, rode Dinsoaur, did ITTBAB, Lion King Show,Panagani Trail. We have gone twice in Dec and have never had to wait for any rides/shows at all.

 

[DVC-Landbaron]

The problem seems to be that AK doesn't fit nicely into ANY category. Yes, part zoo but yes again part shows but yes again part ride.

You’re half way there Mr. Scoop! But you don’t go far enough. Just for argument’s sake strip away the ‘shows and rides. (Please bear with me for second) Now, what do you think of the zoo? Hmmm. Not much of a zoo, is it? Ok put in the rides and strip away the zoo. What have you got? Again, not much in the ride category, is there? And finally, put in the shows and strip away the rides. I think you see where I’m going. And I’ll even go one better. I’ll throw the rides and shows in together as a package deal. We’ll call it ‘theme park aspects’. OK? Without the ‘zoo’ element, there still isn’t much to it. Especially if you’re like me and don’t particularly like the live shows!

No zoo in the world offers a show like Lion King or adventure rides (even if you hate the rides no zoo has them like this). No zoo has such a detailed interactive theater.

Right!! I agree!! But haven’t we already said it isn’t much of zoo in the first place?

No zoo has alot of what AK has except for the animals.

A commodity that AK seems to be in short supply. I mean if you consider it a zoo, that is.

You see, that’s my point in the first place. They took a zoo concept, pared it down to below the bare minimum and added some rides and shows and called it not-a-zoo (I forgot the cute spelling). And they are right. It is certainly not a zoo!!!

Really, I again offer that the only similar analogy to AK would be SeaWorld.

NO!!! Only recently did Seaworld offer any thrill rides, or rides of any sort for that matter. It IS an aquatic zoo first! They took care of their first priority and then started to mix it up a bit. We could easily spend the entire day there and not ride a ride. Now they are hoping to do more. I hope they succeed. Then they can say “not-a(n aquatic)-zoo” and mean, “there is more”!! When Disney says it, it means that it is certainly not a zoo. Yep! They’re right. Not much of a zoo at all!

Well, we seem obsessed with putting AK into a pre-set "category" when one does not exist.

Not we, Mr. Scoop! The general public is obsessed! Just look at the declining numbers!

So what's the point scoop? That was the beauty of AK--it created something which did not exist except maybe SeaWorld (catching a theme here, folks? Maybe Disney wanted to compete with the Beer guys, eh?)

Yeah, I’m catching a theme!! Too bad they didn’t do it right or they might have beaten them!

Sure, it's easy to take AK to task for not meeting the expectations of a pre-set "category" of theme park.

It’s not that it’s easy (although it is!). It’s that it’s reality!! The public is speaking! Why can’t you hear them?

As for the Safari ride, I wholehearted agree with AV and Greg. I want to see animals!!!! Not follow some phony poacher! They made the same mistake with the great movie ride. I wonder if I would want to ride Pirates over and over again if they had some lame, phony skit in the middle of it, EVERY TIME!!!?? I don’t think so.

 

[Another Voice]

“Kinda zoo, kinda thrill park”

Isn’t that the problem Mr. Scoop – AK does neither very well.

Cobbling together two genres doesn’t automatically create “a new category”. It creates a hybrid that lacks the coherence and cohesiveness that a well planned and well thought out place has. And yes, the guests’ expectations play a huge role in this. People do have preconceived ideas about things and one has to design around that fact.

Another bit of movie wisdom: a really good movie has the ending that people are expecting, but done in a way that isn’t. For the theme parks, Walt knew that people were expecting an amusement park, so he gave them rides and thrills BUT in ways they did not expect. Everyone had seen a roller coaster before, but no one had expected the Matterhorn; everyone had seen boat rides, but no one was expecting ‘Pirates of the Caribbean’.

At Animal Kingdom people either expect a theme park or a zoo. The place simply doesn’t deliver on either category. The zoo elements are very (I should say completely) ordinary and timeworn, the theme park elements are sparse and derivative as well. Simply throwing them together does not make the whole better than the parts.

And yes, the same problem exists at the other parks. ‘Atlantis’ and ‘Kraken’ at Sea World really do feel stapled onto the place. But at least the zoo portion of the park is so strong that the thrill rides come off as additions to the place. AK lacks a strong enough base to pull it off.

There was plenty of “out of the box” thinking going on Animal Kingdom. But I won’t go into the budget and talent spiel again. AK could be a tremendous park, all it truly lacks is a strong vision.

 

[Bstanley]

Yes, and 1999 was a bigger year than 2000. And, last year it dipped to 7.7 million. My point was that that number needed to be on a steady INcline. Plus, I'm pretty sure the 99 and 00 numbers were WAY below Disney's initial projections.

You don't actually expect me to accept that the attendance declined in 2001 because of problems at the park do you? Bzzt, sorry, wrong answer...

And considering that the park's capacity (the "shut the gates Donald we're full" kinda capacity) is 28,000 I don't see how the 8.5 million people who showed up in 2000 can be considered "WAY below" acceptable since 28K * 365 = 10.2 Million. Which translates to AK running (during a 'normal' year - one where 757s aren't used as missles) at a better than 83% load factor which is modestly higher than EPCOT's at 76% and absolutely blows by the MK's 62%!

I say again, AK attendance is not a problem.

 

[Bstanley]

OK Scoop here ya go:

Animal Kingdom has about 1000 animals from 200 species and covers about 500 acres.

Miami MetroZoo has about 700 animals from 230 species and covers about 300 acres.

San Diego Zoo (the best zoo IMHO) has about 4000 animals from 800 species and covers about 100 acres.