Electric Cars

[kdonnel]

An aged battery from an BEV/HEV have been labeled and used as secondary storage in shipping containers for the grid. The requirements for cycling and energy throughput are miniscule compared to the vehicles.

EOL for most BEV's I've seen is about 75% capacity which means there is still a lot of "fuel" left in the tank.

BEV batteries are designed to meet the warranty period. Each OEM determines what they feel is adequate in terms of the design (cell/pack/thermal resistance/cooling/Ah throughput/VCO's/rated capacity/etc.).

I have never seen an EV battery designed to last for decades.

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

Automakers suggest a 20 year lifespan but we really don't know. The data from recurrent seems to back up the 20 year or longer useful lifespan for use in an EV.

I would not consider 75% EOL. 75% for my car would be a range of 234 miles. Still well within the normal daily driving characterics of an average US driver.

 

[hertamaniac]

EV batteries would need to be standardized for that to be practical and the design of the vehicle would have to take into the account the easy swap-out of the entire battery. None today is designed for that. I believe every company has their own unique designs based on where the battery cells fit. I would also wonder how you prevent battery theft if they are so easy to remove since clearly they are the most expensive component on an EV. I have no idea how long a battery sitting idle on a shelf holds their full charge. Gas stations would also need to have a good bit of battery turnover in order to put out the $10,000-$20,000 each battery costs and make it economically viable.

You are correct in that there is this thing called self-discharge (it's directly related to the internal resistance of the cells/pack). The packs that sit idle are losing capacity each day. Sure, you can use a taper charge, but then the swap out stations needs to be able to accommodate that.

Further, if they standardized the packs, you thwart battery development for that market. Now your battery companies are designing to a standard and not able to push the R&D limits in the lab. It's the same with the connectors at the stations. It limits the amount of voltage and amperage at the point of use. A battery lab can far exceed those limits, but then who would purchase/integrate them since it exceeds the standard.

 

[hertamaniac]

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

Automakers suggest a 20 year lifespan but we really don't know. The data from recurrent seems to back up the 20 year or longer useful lifespan for use in an EV.

I would not consider 75% EOL. 75% for my car would be a range of 234 miles. Still well within the normal daily driving characterics of an average US driver.

The automakers make that suggestion, so the purchaser(s) feel more confident. Lab data armed with EOL capacity limits drives the actual timetable.

But you bring up an interesting point in available capacity as the battery pack ages. A BMS can be designed to reduce Ah throughput thereby letting the battery pack last longer, but at the sacrifice of "real" capacity. We designed a few batteries that were overrated in terms of capacity while the application took only a fraction of energy out for each cycle. We projected it would last for many years at least in the lab environment.

 

[hertamaniac]

https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/how-long-do-ev-batteries-last

I would not consider 75% EOL. 75% for my car would be a range of 234 miles. Still well within the normal daily driving characterics of an average US driver.

From your link:

Sample manufacturer warranties​

• Tesla battery warranties vary a bit between the Model 3 Standard Range, Long Range and the Model S/X. The Model 3 Standard Range battery is guaranteed to stay at 70% original capacity for 100,000 miles or 8 years, whichever happens first. Other trim levels of the Model 3, and Tesla’s Model Y have a 70% guarantee to 120,000 miles or 8 years. The Model S and X have the same 8 years but 150,000 miles.
• Chevy (GM) has a standard 8 year, 100,000 mile warranty for “electric propulsion components” of the Bolt, Volt, and Malibu. It acknowledges degradation of 10-40% is possible over the warranty period.
• Hyundai boasted “America’s Best Warranty” between 2012 and 2019 with a lifetime, albeit non transferable, battery guarantee. The warranty is against failure, which is largely unspecified in documentation. From 2020 onwards, the battery is guaranteed to maintain 70% of capacity for 10 years or 100,000 miles.
• BMW guaranteed 70% original capacity for 8 years or 100,000 miles, transferable to new owners.
• VW guaranteed 70% original capacity for 8 years or 100,000 miles.

 

[kdonnel]

From your link:

Sample manufacturer warranties​

• Tesla battery warranties vary a bit between the Model 3 Standard Range, Long Range and the Model S/X. The Model 3 Standard Range battery is guaranteed to stay at 70% original capacity for 100,000 miles or 8 years, whichever happens first. Other trim levels of the Model 3, and Tesla’s Model Y have a 70% guarantee to 120,000 miles or 8 years. The Model S and X have the same 8 years but 150,000 miles.
• Chevy (GM) has a standard 8 year, 100,000 mile warranty for “electric propulsion components” of the Bolt, Volt, and Malibu. It acknowledges degradation of 10-40% is possible over the warranty period.
• Hyundai boasted “America’s Best Warranty” between 2012 and 2019 with a lifetime, albeit non transferable, battery guarantee. The warranty is against failure, which is largely unspecified in documentation. From 2020 onwards, the battery is guaranteed to maintain 70% of capacity for 10 years or 100,000 miles.
• BMW guaranteed 70% original capacity for 8 years or 100,000 miles, transferable to new owners.
• VW guaranteed 70% original capacity for 8 years or 100,000 miles.

Warranty and useful life are two very different things. Possible and actual often don't align either.

We don't consider a Chevy Tahoe EOL after 3 years or 36,000 miles because the warranty expired.

Battery management by manufacturer also varies.

My Chevy Bolt has a very small buffer so I have to be more careful about not charging to 100% or letting it drop to 0%. Two things that have never happened. The car gets charged to a listed 80%, actual 78%, daily. It never drops below a listed 70% based on my wife's daily driving pattern.

My Mach e gets charged to a listed 85%, actual 80%, daily. That more than covers my normal driving or even abnormal days where I drive 150 or so miles with a 100 mile cushion. For road trips we initially charge to a listed 100% but from that point forward go as low as 10-20% and DCFC to 80%.

Both cars are experiencing gentle battery handling.

What will be interesting are the Hertz EV being sold and the observed battery condition. Those cars will not have been treated gently in any way. Batteries charged to and left at 100%, batteries charged extensively on DCFC, people repeatedly experiencing EV acceleration, etc.

 

[sheilafri]

That's inaccurate at best.

Yep. Someone has been listening to misinformation. While it is true you lose range in extreme cold a figure of 30-40% loss of range is considered high. In Iowa I lose about 20%. I got an extended range battery for just that reason. Even in the cold I have adequate range. It does not become unusable, though. Also, even putting in the reduced range in winter, I’m paying about 1/3 the fuel cost as in my ICE car.

Yes. This is one person’s experience. But is it less trustworthy than information possibly put out by petroleum interests? Look at the motivations behind your sources of information before you repeat it.

 

[hertamaniac]

Warranty and useful life are two very different things. Possible and actual often don't align either.

We don't consider a Chevy Tahoe EOL after 3 years or 36,000 miles because the warranty expired.

Battery management by manufacturer also varies.

My Chevy Bolt has a very small buffer so I have to be more careful about not charging to 100% or letting it drop to 0%. Two things that have never happened. The car gets charged to a listed 80%, actual 78%, daily. It never drops below a listed 70% based on my wife's daily driving pattern.

My Mach e gets charged to a listed 85%, actual 80%, daily. That more than covers my normal driving or even abnormal days where I drive 150 or so miles with a 100 mile cushion. For road trips we initially charge to a listed 100% but from that point forward go as low as 10-20% and DCFC to 80%.

Both cars are experiencing gentle battery handling.

What will be interesting are the Hertz EV being sold and the observed battery condition. Those cars will not have been treated gently in any way. Batteries charged to and left at 100%, batteries charged extensively on DCFC, people repeatedly experiencing EV acceleration, etc.

What you see on your dashboard is not the actual SOC%. It's the BMS reporting it to the end user(s) to build in safety. The last thing any OEM wants is an overcharge or overdischarge condition which can lead to cell reversal.

Generally, the 20-80% SOC window is considered optimal. But it's the rate at which the battery pack is charged is where a significant portion of damage occurs. This is why DCFC and the higher rate chargers cause concerns. The active materials are more prone to internal stresses (like the separator/electrolyte) at those higher amperage rates.

ICE vehicles have many decades of historical data to lean on in terms of EOL/warranty. The BEV market is newer and the battery manufactures will prioritize safety above all else. So the 70% EOL from initial rated capacity is probably used with the safety buffer seeing the lab data where internal stresses/shorts start to occur.

 

[Starport Seven-Five]

ICE vehicles have a plethora of fueling stations to choose from. Those suppliers compete against each other to earn the consumer's dollar(s). In every home that I've owned, there is a single residential electrical provider; I didn't have a choice to choose among competing providers.

That is an illusion of choice. There is a reason all of your local gas stations are within $0.10 of each other and prices go up and down in unison.

And you have the option to pay an admittedly high cost to take your house off the grid and free yourself from that electrical provider. You do not have that option with gasoline.

Actually, you can use an ICE to feed energy storage (a generator). All it would take is an inverter and the batteries.

The point was you cannot fuel your ICE car at home, not the opposite direction.

 

[tvguy]

A family of 5 would fit nicely in a Tesla Model Y or an X.

The issue is the size of the car seats. They rented a Tesla, not sure which model, on a trip and just too tight they say.

EDIT: Just looked at some photos of the Model Y and X. Yeah, the third row is a joke for adults and kids in bulky car seats. And no room for strollers, etc. Automakers put that third row in but not really usable. I have a Ford Flex which is bigger than the Tesla Y and X and the third row is very tight in that too. I HAVE sat back there, but in reality, it is a 5 passenger car, not a 7 passenger.

 

[hertamaniac]

That is an illusion of choice. There is a reason all of your local gas stations are within $0.10 of each other and prices go up and down in unison.

My point is that gas prices oscillate. I have never seen a reduction in $/kWh rates from an electrical provider.

 

[OKW Lover]

My point is that gas prices oscillate. I have never seen a reduction in $/kWh rates from an electrical provider.

It happens all the time. I'm familiar with electric rates in MA, where I lived before moving to FL ~10 years ago. Their rates per kWh change every 6 months for residential customers that have the utility provide their power. Other electric providers up there change rates at varying intervals. The rate changes go both up and down depending on various things.

 

[hertamaniac]

It happens all the time. I'm familiar with electric rates in MA, where I lived before moving to FL ~10 years ago. Their rates per kWh change every 6 months for residential customers that have the utility provide their power. Other electric providers up there change rates at varying intervals. The rate changes go both up and down depending on various things.

If I look at the increases in an annual basis, it has gone up ~27% from 2012-2022. This data states it as .02/kWh increase each year.

https://www.energysage.com/electricity/residential-electricity-prices-going-up-or-down/

Interestingly, they singled out MA for a trend analysis of increasing rates.

 

[tvguy]

My point is that gas prices oscillate. I have never seen a reduction in $/kWh rates from an electrical provider.

At least here, if you have an electric car you pay a special, lower rate if you meet the restrictions.
https://www.smud.org/en/Rate-Information/Residential-rates/Electric-vehicle-rates

 

[Cogswel_Cogs]

It's a total scam that in it's current vision. It's gonna be worse than the washing machine to poor people. And we are letting the people who produce the cars decide whats being made.
My only hope is that the battery that Toyata is working on will change things drastically and keep China from making a world domination killing from lithium.

 

[kdonnel]

If I look at the increases in an annual basis, it has gone up ~27% from 2012-2022. This data states it as .02/kWh increase each year.

https://www.energysage.com/electricity/residential-electricity-prices-going-up-or-down/

Interestingly, they singled out MA for a trend analysis of increasing rates.

View attachment 837014

Looks a lot like the chart of retail gas prices.

The cost of energy is going to go up over time.

 

[kdonnel]

At least here, if you have an electric car you pay a special, lower rate if you meet the restrictions.
https://www.smud.org/en/Rate-Information/Residential-rates/Electric-vehicle-rates

TOU and EV rates can be a great deal or a horrible deal depending on the fine print.

Switching to the TOU EV plan my provider offers would cost me a considerable amount of money because of my AC usage during the summer months.

WIth my provider the year round peak rate is 34.35 cents per kwh on the TOU or EV plan which is almost 3 times the highest rate on the traditional residential rate plan. The 6.34 cents super off peak rate on the TOU or EV plan in no way makes up for the massive peak rate.

I wish electric providers let you say what would my bill have been last month if I was on rate plan A vs B vs C. They have the data and could perform the calculation.

They won't though because they want the customer to choose poorly and pay more.

 

[tvguy]

TOU and EV rates can be a great deal or a horrible deal depending on the fine print.

Switching to the TOU EV plan my provider offers would cost me a considerable amount of money because of my AC usage during the summer months.

WIth my provider the year round peak rate is 34.35 cents per kwh on the TOU or EV plan which is almost 3 times the highest rate on the traditional residential rate plan. The 6.34 cents super off peak rate on the TOU or EV plan in no way makes up for the massive peak rate.

I wish electric providers let you way what would my bill have been last month if I was on rate plan A vs B vs C. They have the data and could perform the calculation.

They won't though because they want the customer to choose poorly and pay more.

Unfortunately here you don't have an option, everyone pays TOU. However, in my case, the majority of our electric use is in the Peak (5 to 8 pm) and Mid-peak (Noon to 5pm) when normally we are using zero energy from the electric provider because our solar panels are producing more power than we are using. Generally our electric bill from our utility is the minimum connection fee of $23.50. Our highest electric bill was last month's, for January, $163 because we had very little sun the entire month. So an EV for me would need to be charged during the afternoon during Spring, Summer and Fall to use my solar generation, and from about November to April I would need to charge after midnight to get the lowest rate.

 

[OKW Lover]

If I look at the increases in an annual basis, it has gone up ~27% from 2012-2022. This data states it as .02/kWh increase each year.

Yes, on average they have gone up. I was pointing out though that at times they have declined.

Electric companies today are facing another complicating factor. They bill based on quantity (kWh) but as conservation efforts and behind the meeter solar/wind grow, average usage will be reduced. Thus, the companies need to collect the same amount of facility support costs over lower volumes.

 

[Pillialle]

I like electric cars. Planning to buy my first one soon. I also need to find a reliable car insurance provider that offers coverage tailored to electric vehicles. How good is rac customer service? Since electric cars have unique features and maintenance requirements, it's important to ensure I have the right coverage in case anything happens. If anyone has any recommendations or tips for finding the best electric car insurance, I'm all ears.

 

[tvguy]

Yes, on average they have gone up. I was pointing out though that at times they have declined.

Electric companies today are facing another complicating factor. They bill based on quantity (kWh) but as conservation efforts and behind the meeter solar/wind grow, average usage will be reduced. Thus, the companies need to collect the same amount of facility support costs over lower volumes.

Depends on the utility. The $23.50 minimum fee with my electric company goes to cover the facility support costs even if I use no power from them during the month. They bill usage at cost. But it is a non-profit, municipally owned utility.
But our municipally owned water district did have to sharply increase the minimum monthly connection fee when drought water restrictions went into place because people sharply lowered water usage and put in drought resistant, water friendly landscaping to the point they could not keep up the infrastructure.