Flocks of Lawyers Circling WDW ???

[Dznefreek]

A.D.A. laws requires reasonable accommodations not total accommodation or access.

 

[hakepb]

A.D.A. laws requires reasonable accommodations not total accommodation or access.

True.
But the argument for an Avatar-based land is that the rides have the same accommodations as the movie showed to a paraplegic character.

Since the movie's character manually transferred to his Avatar, and FOP requires a manual transfer, it may be meeting the movie's standard.

 

[rteetz]

True.
But the argument for an Avatar-based land is that the rides have the same accommodations as the movie showed to a paraplegic character.

Since the movie's character manually transferred to his Avatar, and FOP requires a manual transfer, it may be meeting the movie's standard.

I don't know if that's fair. That character was very strong in his upper body and could do a lot with his arms and was in the military. He also had to link to a Avatar while not being in a wheelchair so he had to transfer himself.

 

[danikoski]

True.
But the argument for an Avatar-based land is that the rides have the same accommodations as the movie showed to a paraplegic character.

Since the movie's character manually transferred to his Avatar, and FOP requires a manual transfer, it may be meeting the movie's standard.

I'm pretty sure the character in the movie could transfer to FoP pretty easily. Based on his upper body strength, he may even be able to ride NRJ with some assistance.

 

[Kaytie]

That may be the case however if they planned for some longer boats to accommodate the disabled, perhaps the right turns could have been adjusted. Even adding a roll on area for one wheelchair every few boats, perhaps removing one of the rows on those to minimize the length, should have been considered. I think that making as many things disability accessible as possible is something everyone should support because while we may not be disabled today, there is no guarantee things won't change in the future.

It doesn't make sense to design the vehicles first, then create the "road."

Anyway, anybody who cares to visit the Pandora thread on the disABILITIES forum will find a discussion about what kind of transfer methods are expected (i.e. already configured and installed) for each attraction. Not "if", but "what."

 

[Tonyz]

NOTE: Hello, Rohde, are you listening, or did the weight of your earring slant your view of the REAL world?

Not every single attraction is going to be suitable for every single guest. And insulting Joe Rohde in such a dumb way screams that you're not serious about this discussion.

 

[hakepb]

I don't know if that's fair. That character was very strong in his upper body and could do a lot with his arms and was in the military. He also had to link to a Avatar while not being in a wheelchair so he had to transfer himself.

I agree. It would be best if a majority of wheelchair users could have some form of an Avatar experience vs the current apparent minority.

 

[Darklord77]

I read the news story on this website that was critical of Disney for not designing the river ride to allow for wheelchairs. How the ADA was actually applied to theme park rides interested me so I checked out the disABILITIES forum. The way I'm interpreting the ADA concerning theme park rides is that Disney just has to provide an option to transfer from a wheelchair onto the ride at minimum. Allowing an actual wheelchair on the ride is up to the ride designer. This is what I have gathered from the disABILITIES forum. So this would imply that Disney has met all the legal obligations concerning ADA correct? Can the flock of lawyers fly somewhere else now?

 

[rteetz]

I read the news story on this website that was critical of Disney for not designing the river ride to allow for wheelchairs. How the ADA was actually applied to theme park rides interested me so I checked out the disABILITIES forum. The way I'm interpreting the ADA concerning theme park rides is that Disney just has to provide an option to transfer from a wheelchair onto the ride at minimum. Allowing an actual wheelchair on the ride is up to the ride designer. This is what I have gathered from the disABILITIES forum. So this would imply that Disney has met all the legal obligations concerning ADA correct? Can the flock of lawyers fly somewhere else now?

Correct that is what Disney has to do.

 

[KYMickey]

Are we really so blinded by our armchair imagineer status that we're going to sit here and say "why didn't Disney consider this....why didn't Disney consider that"? Rest assured, every single design suggestion posted here was thoroughly vetted, debated, charted, focus-grouped and otherwise analyzed before things were set in stone.

I know what you're saying but I'm not sure that in reality options like those being discussed here were considered. Partly because I'm quite sure nobody under design team had handicaps like some of those of us who are posting here do. You haven't lived life in a wheelchair you can't even think of some of the obstacles that pop up in your life.

I'm not trying to be insensitive but every single move to make the attractions more accessible would likely have resulted in a lesser experience for all. When you start changing queue setups, changing ride vehicles, reducing motion, eliminating effects...the entire experience suffers. Ultimately designers have to choose the proper balance between high quality experience and guest accessibility.

Maybe you weren't trying to be insensitive but you certainly were. You demonstrated that you don't care that others can enjoy something as long as you get the maximal experience! Ride vehicles and queues can easily be adjusted during the design process with no effect on the overall experience. I agree that reducing motion or limiting effects could affect the experience for others but many of the people with disabilities can handle all of the motion and effects well, they just can't walk and require the use of a wheelchair.

You can't tell me that adding one location where a wheelchair could be loaded on banshee or having one boat where wheelchair could be loaded what affect your or anybody else's experience in the slightest.

 

[Westcoastwild]

I know what you're saying but I'm not sure that in reality options like those being discussed here were considered. Partly because I'm quite sure nobody under design team had handicaps like some of those of us who are posting here do. You haven't lived life in a wheelchair you can't even think of some of the obstacles that pop up in your life.



Maybe you weren't trying to be insensitive but you certainly were. You demonstrated that you don't care that others can enjoy something as long as you get the maximal experience! Ride vehicles and queues can easily be adjusted during the design process with no effect on the overall experience. I agree that reducing motion or limiting effects could affect the experience for others but many of the people with disabilities can handle all of the motion and effects well, they just can't walk and require the use of a wheelchair.

You can't tell me that adding one location where a wheelchair could be loaded on banshee or having one boat where wheelchair could be loaded what affect your or anybody else's experience in the slightest.

Okay...but the people who "just can't walk" CAN ride these rides. Transfers ARE possible. Creating/altering existing ride vehicles to accommodate the really expensive and heavy motorized vehicles that some quadriplegics might use is an entirely different matter. It is much more challenging, especially in a boat scenario.

the transfer option works for lots of people. But not everyone. Accommodations are supposed to be "reasonable and enforceable" not Universal.

 

[Nancyg56]

1) I fully admit to a personal bias.
2) I have been in a wheelchair since my February MAJOR car accident.
. . . driving on Oceola Parkway near Disney, at highway speed
. . . on-coming driver decided to turn left in front of me
. . . no notice or time to avoid the other car
. . . completely destroyed everything in front of my Yukon windshield
. . . by the Grace of God and GM Safety Engineers, me and my 16-year-old passenger survived
. . . we were coming from volunteering at Give-Kids-The-World
. . . I guess even helping terminally-ill children has its ill-fated rewards
. . . she with only seat-belt rashes, and me with two fractured discs and one fractured ankle
3) If all goes as planned, I should be out of the wheelchair in July-2017
4) But, due to being chair-bond, I can understand A LITTLE of the plight of others.
5) Why should they not be able to enjoy the ride, due to Joe Rohde poor-planning?
6) Disney should be enjoyed by all.

NOTE: Yes, I have been highly, and very openly, vocal critical of Rohde for a long time. He under-planned AK from the start. He did a poor job in the design of the Nighttime Safari, he goofed big-time on the Rivers of Light design and timing. Now, he limits who can enjoy the spectacle of Pandora. And, we have not even talked about the approximate 1-mile walk to exit Pandora, or using the wrong coolant on Avatar ride, so it can run for 1-hr and needs to cool down for 2-hrs. (As an engineer with 11-USA-patents, I have seen where things could have been different. He even has missed planed project milestone dates. SHAME on him. And, SHAME ON DISNEY for keeping him on-board.)

Hi Rusty. I did not know you were in an accident, and had wondered where you were of late. We do not always agree but in this case I am also wondering at the lack of foreplanning,. I understand that it is not always possible to retrofit existing attractions, but one that is brand new? This makes no sense to me.

I agree but at this point there isn't much we can do about it. The ride is built and staying as is.

THe point should be that planning these lands and attraction is shortsighted lately. The mine train is only one example of limited vision in my opinion. When we renovated our home we put our money and resources in the structure. We compromised in areas that were not permanent. DIsney seems to plan from the end backwards.

 

[rteetz]

Hi Rusty. I did not know you were in an accident, and had wondered where you were of late. We do not always agree but in this case I am also wondering at the lack of foreplanning,. I understand that it is not always possible to retrofit existing attractions, but one that is brand new? This makes no sense to me.



THe point should be that planning these lands and attraction is shortsighted lately. The mine train is only one example of limited vision in my opinion. When we renovated our home we put our money and resources in the structure. We compromised in areas that were not permanent. DIsney seems to plan from the end backwards.

I find it hard to believe Disney did not know what they were doing.

 

[Nancyg56]

I find it hard to believe Disney did not know what they were doing.

I am sure they did. That's what bothers me.

 

[tjkraz]

I know what you're saying but I'm not sure that in reality options like those being discussed here were considered. Partly because I'm quite sure nobody under design team had handicaps like some of those of us who are posting here do. You haven't lived life in a wheelchair you can't even think of some of the obstacles that pop up in your life.

Walt Disney Imagineering has been making mobility accommodations in its theme parks, hotels, cruise ships and other venues for 50+ years. There is little reason to believe that they simply turned a blind eye to customers who deal with these challenges on a daily basis.

Maybe you weren't trying to be insensitive but you certainly were. You demonstrated that you don't care that others can enjoy something as long as you get the maximal experience!

Balance! The key is striking a balance. There is little doubt in my mind that EVERY Disney attraction has been modified in some way to increase accessibility. And I'm wholly in favor of that...I applaud it!

But at some point, designers have to find that balance of reasonable accessibility while maintaining the experience they intended. This is nothing new. The same can be said of every Disney theme park attraction, new and old.

Ride vehicles and queues can easily be adjusted during the design process with no effect on the overall experience.

"Easily"?

You can't tell me that adding one location where a wheelchair could be loaded on banshee or having one boat where wheelchair could be loaded what affect your or anybody else's experience in the slightest.

Nevertheless, your take seems to be that after 6+ years of design and construction, the end result is: "gee, we never thought to make the attraction accessible." Sorry, I cannot buy into that.

 

[jknezek]

You can't tell me that adding one location where a wheelchair could be loaded on banshee or having one boat where wheelchair could be loaded what affect your or anybody else's experience in the slightest.

OK. I'm going to take exception to this. Not because I think WDW or other parks shouldn't be handicapped accessible, they should and many really are pretty handicapped friendly, but... these accommodations absolutely affect mine and everybody's else's experience. There is nothing that lessens the magic more, of any ride, than being stopped at some point in the middle of the ride story and hearing "please stay seated, the ride will continue momentarily" over and over while they load on a handicapped individual. It absolutely affects the quality of the experience, and not just slightly.

Now, does that mean they shouldn't do it? Of course not. It's a price I'm certainly willing to pay so that people with handicaps and other special needs can enjoy the rides. But I think it is very, very specious to claim that there is no compromise in the ride quality to assist handicapped and special needs people. There most certainly is, and that give up is a reasonable accommodation in my opinion.

What galls me about Navi River Ride is that I have a strong belief that not building wheelchair accessible boats is stupid for both groups. For handicapped folks, transferring is an additional, annoying step. For non-handicapped, in my anecdotal experience, it takes longer to transfer than it does to simply roll someone on and strap them in. So both groups seems to lose in this scenario.

 

[Madonna3]

"please stay seated, the ride will continue momentarily"

Just wondering, besides Spaceship Earth, where else would you have encountered this during the ride or show?

 

[mikepizzo]

Just wondering, besides Spaceship Earth, where else would you have encountered this during the ride or show?

Any of the Omni-moves. Haunted Mansion has the spiel about "playful spooks".

 

[jknezek]

Just wondering, besides Spaceship Earth, where else would you have encountered this during the ride or show?

Pretty much any of the omnimovers. We were stuck in HM for over 5 minutes in December. I got sick of seeing the bride's sickle appear. Spaceship Earth and Little Mermaid come to mind as well. I did very well in one section of Midway Mania because we sat there for quite a while. Those are just the ones I remember from our last trip. I know we didn't stop on Pan on either time through because I remarked to my wife about it.

Splash Mountain also, though that is not an omnimover. But the boat rides generally have gates that prevent the boats from getting to close or in the same section. So you will sometimes be held at one point. Less likely to get an announcement though so it isn't as noticeable.

 

[tjkraz]

Any of the Omni-moves. Haunted Mansion has the spiel about "playful spooks".

Also Nemo and Buzz.