My Slow Divorce from Walt Disney World

[DCLMP]

Why would you refuse a 15.5% discount from a Costco booking to get less service from Disney?

I don’t get a 15% discount booking through Costco.

 

[RedAngie]

Most of the Disney “divorces” I read about on the DIS sound more like trial separations with booty calls.

I can’t call my retreat from Disney a divorce or trial separation because our relationship was never more than a casual fling or a friends with benefits situation.

 

[shh]

Yeah, Key West is crazy now. I go there regularly for work, and it just seems more expensive and more crowded with every trip. It’s another place that used to have pretty distinct seasons/off-seasons but now feels just plain nuts all the time.

Yup...this is the first year we're skipping KW...just won't pay the ridiculous prices for off season summer heat and humidity.

 

[MillauFr]

I don’t get a 15% discount booking through Costco.

9% Costco Travel discount, 2% additional for Costco Executive members, 4.5% discount when using Chase Sapphire Reserve credit card.

 

[cvjw]

That must be a nice house. Post some pictures when you get back. I can't imagine my son not wanting to cruise. Have they aged out of the clubs?

My boys are 26 and 22!

 

[john7994]

I grew up an hour from the parks. Mid-80s through mid-90s, we had Three Season Salute passes that evolved into Four Season Salute (the precursor for Seasonal passes). Three Season Salute were valid January, May, and September. Four Season Salute added the weeks right after Thanksgiving until about a week before Christmas. AllEars.net's historical ticket price page informs me that Three Season Salute started at $40/adults and $30/children (Magic Kingdom Club prices) and eventually went up to $50 and $40. Four Season Salute was around $95.

Prior to those passes coming out, we went once a year on my birthday in July. It was hot and crowded. But when we started on Three Season Salute dates, the parks were dead. A 30-minute wait was LONG and unusual. By eating at slightly off hours (1pm for lunch, 7pm for dinner) we walked up to absolutely any table service restaurant we wanted. In the evening, we could literally walk down a path and realize we were the only ones on it.

An inflation calculator informs me that in today's dollars, a Three Season Salute pass would be roughly $100 and a Four Season Salute would be about $180. Once you've paid that little for three or four months of feeling like you had the parks to yourself, it's REALLY hard to justify today's prices.

I remember buying an annual pass in my early 20s for $200 on my first credit card! I have seen the AllEars.com data and I appreciate you going to the trouble of sourcing it. Although, I had no doubt ticket prices have gone up in the last 40 years as has the population of the US (100M and shifted to the west and southern regions of the country interestingly), cost of labor, housing, goods, services and other things (whether in proportion to each other, to value received, household income, or aligned with inflation is a different story). Regardless, the market has borne the cost of tickets (until now), otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Back to my original question, it seems much of the anecdotal responses on crowd levels draw all the way back to the 80-90s - and while I am sure there were days with little or no waits (just as I saw in January during a few weekdays before the onslaught of Marathon weekend btw). Maybe I should have qualified my question a little better - what's so different now than 10-20 years ago. Yes, I am aware of the recent takeaways, anecdotal "experience" and "magic" observations etc (which I haven't really seen personally but ok)... I am actually impressed that people will wait 2-3 hours to get on a ride in the first place lol.

It seems we aren't even considering the impacts of the last two years, park attendee behavioral changes, and the constant pounding the CMs are taking. Yet, for some reason, its all the current CEOs fault. I am not a fan of the changes, especially as a new DVC owner, But, it still seems a bit imbalanced to me, so that's why I am asking - I am clearly missing something.

 

[JLTraveling]

I remember buying an annual pass in my early 20s for $200 on my first credit card! I have seen the AllEars.com data and I appreciate you going to the trouble of sourcing it. Although, I had no doubt ticket prices have gone up in the last 40 years as has the population of the US (100M and shifted to the west and southern regions of the country interestingly), cost of labor, housing, goods, services and other things (whether in proportion to each other, to value received, household income, or aligned with inflation is a different story). Regardless, the market has borne the cost of tickets (until now), otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Back to my original question, it seems much of the anecdotal responses on crowd levels draw all the way back to the 80-90s - and while I am sure there were days with little or no waits (just as I saw in January during a few weekdays before the onslaught of Marathon weekend btw). Maybe I should have qualified my question a little better - what's so different now than 10-20 years ago. Yes, I am aware of the recent takeaways, anecdotal "experience" and "magic" observations etc (which I haven't really seen personally but ok)... I am actually impressed that people will wait 2-3 hours to get on a ride in the first place lol.

It seems we aren't even considering the impacts of the last two years, park attendee behavioral changes, and the constant pounding the CMs are taking. Yet, for some reason, its all the current CEOs fault. I am not a fan of the changes, especially as a new DVC owner, But, it still seems a bit imbalanced to me, so that's why I am asking - I am clearly missing something.

OK, here's why I think the 80s and 90s are still relevant: I believe that we can't have a fully reasoned discussion on this topic without looking at the full historical context. The downward slide began, IMO, when Frank Wells died. That was way back in 1994, but it was a watershed moment in Disney's corporate evolution, because it marked the shift from Eisner's expansive Disney Decade (often recognized as one of the best periods in Disney history) to Eisner's utter collapse (as I've stated, best represented TO ME by filling in the 20K lagoon to build a cheap playground). And for me, things have only gotten worse since then. I'm not sure how we can frame this conversation without acknowledging Eisner and Wells.

Yes, 1994 was nearly 30 years ago. But the parks have been declining ever since. Remember, Eisner was effectively run out of the company on a rail thanks to Roy E. Disney's Save Disney campaign. Iger was supposed to be the one to save it, but instead he continued and even escalated the devolution of the guest experience while nickel and diming guests to death. Now Iger's out and we have Chapek, who picked up the baton and has turned the slow and steady decline into a 100mph race straight off the cliff.

So it's not that 10 or 20 years ago were "great." But they were okay. The pricing/guest experience equation was still teetering in the mostly all right category. Especially when you consider that the Year of a Million Dreams was in 2006, exactly in the middle of that time period. There were price hikes and cuts and ongoing problems, but they still understood that you can't go too far, and you need to do SOMETHING to counterbalance it. Can you imagine Chapek EVER greenlighting such a massive "give people free stuff" campaign? We're now at the point where, for many of us, the balance is no longer there. It didn't start with Chapek, but he's the first to ENTIRELY miss the point that the guest experience IS the product.

And please. Don't act like badly behaved guests and CMs taking a pounding is new. I worked for both Disney and Universal off and on all the way through college, and believe me, guests acting out is nothing new. As for the pandemic effects, Universal faced the exact same challenges. Yet nobody is over here complaining that Universal has fallen off a cliff....instead, lots of people are giving them a chance and finding out that in the modern era, Universal offers much of the same experience as the Disney of old.

 

[longboard55]

Like key west prices in Hawaii are also way up. Vegas room prices are not bad but everything else is way overpriced. Good luck getting a room in Yosemite. Travel is too popular know. People complain about Disney but the parks are sold out weeks in advance. Someone is going

 

[MillauFr]

Yes, 1994 was nearly 30 years ago. But the parks have been declining ever since.

If you restricted the parks to "Disneyworld" then yes I would agree. Disneyland definitely not. California Adventure was a massive surface parking lot in 1994. It is far superior today.

 

[lifesavacation]

We were just down there a few weeks ago and even though we managed to make MK work pretty well with Genie + it was not a fun experience. My son loved it because he didn't know any better and because of that I loved the trip as a whole but I admit that the new reservation, pay for Genie+/LL, and constant need to be on your phone has make the experience worse not better.

We still love Disney and have a good time but the overall experience has not gotten better.

I have to agree with you. We just went for the first time since Genie+. The constant need to be on the phone was a distraction. There were times I was walking and looking at my phone and would grab my husband’s arm and tell him not to let me walk into anything. Since it was our first time using the system, we’ll be better at using it next time I’m sure.

 

[JFDIS]

I used to see Disney through rose colored glasses but I no longer do. I remember learning that Disney did not sell newspapers on property on one of my first visits. The escapism it offered me was enchanting and I was willing to pay the price. No longer.
The stench of politics is too heavy. It’s offer of escaping the real world is gone. Too much planning and not enough value for the money.
I imagine my family of four are WDW’s target audience. We spend 8-12k a year visiting. We stay at the deluxe resorts, eat every meal on property and buy souvenirs. I would add that we are pass holders but it is clear that Disney sees no value in that.
We have one last family trip planned this month. We do have a January trip planned with in-laws but I think we will do Sea World instead. On our ‘Disney’ vacation budget we have planned a trip to Yellowstone/ Grand Teton, a Royal Caribbean cruise and a skiing trip. We will renew our Busch gardens and buy Sea World passes too.

 

[john7994]

OK, here's why I think the 80s and 90s are still relevant: I believe that we can't have a fully reasoned discussion on this topic without looking at the full historical context. The downward slide began, IMO, when Frank Wells died. That was way back in 1994, but it was a watershed moment in Disney's corporate evolution, because it marked the shift from Eisner's expansive Disney Decade (often recognized as one of the best periods in Disney history) to Eisner's utter collapse (as I've stated, best represented TO ME by filling in the 20K lagoon to build a cheap playground). And for me, things have only gotten worse since then. I'm not sure how we can frame this conversation without acknowledging Eisner and Wells.

Yes, 1994 was nearly 30 years ago. But the parks have been declining ever since. Remember, Eisner was effectively run out of the company on a rail thanks to Roy E. Disney's Save Disney campaign. Iger was supposed to be the one to save it, but instead he continued and even escalated the devolution of the guest experience while nickel and diming guests to death. Now Iger's out and we have Chapek, who picked up the baton and has turned the slow and steady decline into a 100mph race straight off the cliff.

So it's not that 10 or 20 years ago were "great." But they were okay. The pricing/guest experience equation was still teetering in the mostly all right category. Especially when you consider that the Year of a Million Dreams was in 2006, exactly in the middle of that time period. There were price hikes and cuts and ongoing problems, but they still understood that you can't go too far, and you need to do SOMETHING to counterbalance it. Can you imagine Chapek EVER greenlighting such a massive "give people free stuff" campaign? We're now at the point where, for many of us, the balance is no longer there. It didn't start with Chapek, but he's the first to ENTIRELY miss the point that the guest experience IS the product.

And please. Don't act like badly behaved guests and CMs taking a pounding is new. I worked for both Disney and Universal off and on all the way through college, and believe me, guests acting out is nothing new. As for the pandemic effects, Universal faced the exact same challenges. Yet nobody is over here complaining that Universal has fallen off a cliff....instead, lots of people are giving them a chance and finding out that in the modern era, Universal offers much of the same experience as the Disney of old.

Yep,I GET IT, you don't like Chapek.
So in summary:
- Chapek inherited a progressive decline, but he did his best in the last two years to make it worse
- Pandemic was just a blip on the radar, but clearly Chapek should have seen it coming and done better anyway
- Universal and WDW are the same magnitude of Operations (and Chapek isn't at Universal)
- Universal is better than WDW (Because again, Chapek isn't there)
- Based on your college experiences, CMs are treated the same by park guests, but no thanks to Chapek

 

[JLTraveling]

Yep,I GET IT, you don't like Chapek.
So in summary:
- Chapek inherited a progressive decline, but he did his best in the last two years to make it worse
- Pandemic was just a blip on the radar, but clearly Chapek should have seen it coming and done better anyway
- Universal and WDW are the same magnitude of Operations (and Chapek isn't at Universal)
- Universal is better than WDW (Because again, Chapek isn't there)
- Based on your college experiences, CMs are treated the same by park guests, but no thanks to Chapek

Is there a reason you have such a chip on your shoulder? I've stated a factual account of the past 30 years of Disney history, and you've boiled it down to "I don't like Chapek." You think he's the greatest CEO ever and the guest experience is the best it's ever been? Cool. More power to you. Enjoy it. But when you ask a direct question and I answer it factually, there's no need to get snippy.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Certain groups have always been left out of extra magic hours. People staying offsite have never been included. Now, the group is even smaller since it is deluxe guests. No one is excluded from staying in a deluxe hotel - just depends on what someone’s priorities are. People save up for years to be able to stay deluxe. Or you can skip extra magic hours, save lots of money and stay offsite.

I'm so late to the game but I have to chuckle at the comment of basically it's just priorities...lol like really. I'd like to not spend up to several months of a mortgage for a few days at a hotel just to get 2 hours in the evening thank you very much

 

[john7994]

Is there a reason you have such a chip on your shoulder? I've stated a factual account of the past 30 years of Disney history, and you've boiled it down to "I don't like Chapek." You think he's the greatest CEO ever and the guest experience is the best it's ever been? Cool. More power to you. Enjoy it. But when you ask a direct question and I answer it factually, there's no need to get snippy.

Thats FUNNY "chip" / Chapek - I saw what you did there - clever!

Snippy not really - maybe guilty of going a little passive aggressive - but usually in response to be talked-down too - I'll own that one. I summarized the "FACTS" as you related them to me for my own understanding because obviously as you pointed out to me in your original response and follow-up, I clearly don't have all the insights you have. (also a little passive-aggressive - I know - I am working on it)

Honestly, I didn't even know who Chapek was until I heard Peter Werner laying into him on his podcasts 6 months ago. (Gasp) - I know right? Never met the guy, never sat around in the c-suite at Disney for the last three decades, don't have all the data that isn't public or speculative, and I dont know the other Bob or Eisner for that matter either.

So to be clear, I don't think Chapek is the greatest CEO in the world, but I am willing to be open in my assessment that he was dealt a nasty combination of ongoing decline at WDW, compounded by a pandemic, and he has been on the job as CEO for two years - most of which focused on trying to recover from these situations. So yeah, kind of sucks to be him right now.

So maybe at some point in the future, I will join your opinion or maybe Chapek will turn it around. For purely selfish reasons (as a DVC owner mostly), I hope he does. Otherwise, the market will speak, maybe Apple will buy them (unless we don't like that Tim Cook guy either) and life will move on.

 

[JLTraveling]

Thats FUNNY "chip" / Chapek - I saw what you did there - clever!

Snippy not really - maybe guilty of going a little passive aggressive - but usually in response to be talked-down too - I'll own that one. I summarized the "FACTS" as you related them to me for my own understanding because obviously as you pointed out to me in your original response and follow-up, I clearly don't have all the insights you have. (also a little passive-aggressive - I know - I am working on it)

Honestly, I didn't even know who Chapek was until I heard Peter Werner laying into him on his podcasts 6 months ago. (Gasp) - I know right? Never met the guy, never sat around in the c-suite at Disney for the last three decades, don't have all the data that isn't public or speculative, and I dont know the other Bob or Eisner for that matter either.

So to be clear, I don't think Chapek is the greatest CEO in the world, but I am willing to be open in my assessment that he was dealt a nasty combination of ongoing decline at WDW, compounded by a pandemic, and he has been on the job as CEO for two years - most of which focused on trying to recover from these situations. So yeah, kind of sucks to be him right now.

So maybe at some point in the future, I will join your opinion or maybe Chapek will turn it around. For purely selfish reasons (as a DVC owner mostly), I hope he does. Otherwise, the market will speak, maybe Apple will buy them (unless we don't like that Tim Cook guy either) and life will move on.

I wasn't trying to talk down to you. I was simply trying to answer your question. And I'm glad that at least for now, you're getting your money's worth as a DVC owner. Truly. I wish I didn't feel like I do about the current Disney experience, and from reading others' contributions here, it seems like they don't like feeling this way either. But several of us do, you asked why, I tried to answer. Again, I'm really happy for you that you're not currently at that point.

 

[john7994]

I wasn't trying to talk down to you. I was simply trying to answer your question. And I'm glad that at least for now, you're getting your money's worth as a DVC owner. Truly. I wish I didn't feel like I do about the current Disney experience, and from reading others' contributions here, it seems like they don't like feeling this way either. But several of us do, you asked why, I tried to answer. Again, I'm really happy for you that you're not currently at that point.

Appreciate that, and I hope you get that magic and experience again at some later date - I sincerely meant it, Disney is clearly losing when loyal long-time fans walk away. I think we all want it to be better than it has and currently is now. Best wishes for the future!

 

[kymom99]

Maybe this was brought up. Hard to remember. But as we look at trends, my first visit was a couple years post 9/11. Lots of things came to a halt after that date and affected Disney. So I felt that they were trying to earn my business at that point. The next couple visits was around the recession/ housing crisis so again Disney was having to work for our money. Now they just don’t have to. I sincerely hope things level off again as trends seem to be cyclical. Then maybe I will feel like my business is important to them.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Do I like the Deluxe resort people getting more perks? Honestly, I don't care. I go Value and expect that this means what it implies.

I'm staying at the cheapest resort on Universal property and I get in an hour early to the parks. Right now it's IOA but sometimes it's Studios, sometimes both. Volcano Bay is 30mins early right now.

And their bus service is amazing. We've never waited more than 5 mins for a bus to show up...even when hoards of people were at close last night. Gasp they brought out an extra bus the Volcano Bay bus.

Being at Value doesn't need to imply something less than for everything.

 

[coast2coastmickey]

I used to be the cynical guy, and over the years changed to exclusively staying in deluxe Disney resorts, multiple times a year, cruising, all that. We've spent dozens of thousands of dollars at Disney at this point (both US parks, cruise line, premium merch like Dooney bags). We always seemed to have another trip booked within a week or two of finishing a trip. My kids love everything Disney. My post history is evidence of all this.

Sadly, our most recent trip in February was less than ideal. Genie stinks and was expensive for little benefit. Food was harder to come by and was of a lesser quality than prior trips. No housekeeping at all even though it was supposed to be every other day or third day or something. The room at Beach Club was beat up. Not dirty, just not what you'd expect for $600 a night. And then add in recent political injections and everything Disney seems "different." My wife, who is the Disney nut, and always has been, doesn't want to plan any Disney trips for a while after everything we've been through and observed. We took multiple trips during the heat of the pandemic and each one just took a little out of us for various reasons.

So yeah. Disney won't get nearly as much money from me as they used to. It's down to a Disney+ subscription and that's it. An average of $15-20k per year spent, down to less than $100 a year. The sad part is that I'm willing to pay even more money! I just want the experience to match. Don't charge me Ritz Carlton prices for Holiday Inn quality. I live 30 minutes away from one of the top hotels in the world. And their guest experience is just as polished as ever. If they can do it, then Disney can do it.

So yeah, we're voting with our dollars and choosing to spend them elsewhere for the time being. If Disney thrives after all this, good for them I guess. I just hope that things change for the better and I can feel good about bringing Disney parks and cruises back into the fold of my family's life.