No more Prince or Princesses

[bbeagle]

I’m all for gender neutral terms. But I’m not a fan of “friends”. I just get a sketchy man with a big white van vibe when I hear adults using that word to address children.

I've never thought that. My son's male kindergarten teacher called all the kids 'friends' in his class everyday. The kids loved it.

When I go down south and someone calls me 'Bubba' or 'Captain' or 'Bud', I'm MUCH more taken aback. I don't like those greetings at all, but I put up with them without complaint.

 

[SkipperDave]

I'm at WDW now, and I made a lot of new "friends" today. This is great! It's hard to make new friends when you're in your fifties. I can't wait to go out to dinner with these new friends.
But seriously, on our June trip, I felt like a waiter was intentionally calling my kid Ma'am. What twenty-two year old is a Ma'am?? The waiter was my age! I didn't call this waiter out when I contacted guest relations, but I do think there was some intentionality in their behavior. As a parent, this really made me sad.

Why did you contact guest relations?

 

[SkipperDave]

The only slightly weird story I have from personal experience is when I was ushering a line forward at Pirates and I told a young toddler girl, "right this way, buddy!"

And her dad said, "Buddy? She's a girl."

Uh, what's your point?

 

[travelpantfam]

I think I resemble that remark! When I was younger, I used to chuckle when folks called me "sir." Now that I've lived long enough to warrant the title, I hope the practice sticks around for a bit longer.

My son has been taking karate lessons for close to a decade and ever since day one they have encouraged every student to address all adults by either sir or ma'am. I can guarantee that this is only done to teach respect and not to insult anyone if they were ever to accidentally misgender someone. I always looked at it as a way to address someone you may not know the name of without saying something like "hey you". I agree with you, this is something that I hope stays around for a while as well.

 

[BrianL]

The only slightly weird story I have from personal experience is when I was ushering a line forward at Pirates and I told a young toddler girl, "right this way, buddy!"

And her dad said, "Buddy? She's a girl."

Uh, what's your point?

Buddy can be taken as a term reserved for males, but it does depend. Once again, another case of a word being taken differently by different people.

I've never thought that. My son's male kindergarten teacher called all the kids 'friends' in his class everyday. The kids loved it.

When I go down south and someone calls me 'Bubba' or 'Captain' or 'Bud', I'm MUCH more taken aback. I don't like those greetings at all, but I put up with them without complaint.

Man, you've been in the South all right! Bubba is actually a take-off on brother, so it is intended in a nice way. Captain is like saying, "You're the boss." I use bud a lot with kids.

 

[travelpantfam]

That's exactly what we did when my daughter was misgendered by cast members when she was growing back her hair after beating cancer at 6 years old. She was called a boy several times not only at Disney but in every day life. Even at 6 my daughter realized that "they just didn't know" and moved on. 4 years later we still talk about how great that trip was and until this comment I had forgotten all about that. Calling kids Prince and Princesses brings more joy than harm and honestly we all could use more joy.

Congratulations to your daughter on beating cancer

I completely agree! The last time we were in Disney World at Steakhouse 71 my 13 year old son, who is on the smaller side for his age, had shoulder length hair at the time was called a girl multiple times by our waiter. He laughed about it and it didn't bother him then or bother him now. I did ask him after the waiter made the mistake the first time if he wanted me to correct him if it happened again, and he said no and his exact words were "why would I care, I don't know him and people make mistakes. I wouldn't want to make him feel bad, he might spit in my food "

I do understand that not everyone would react the way that my son did and that this may be more of a sensitive subject for others, but I am very proud of him for not letting an innocent mistake by the waiter affect the rest of his trip.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

The only slightly weird story I have from personal experience is when I was ushering a line forward at Pirates and I told a young toddler girl, "right this way, buddy!"

And her dad said, "Buddy? She's a girl."

Uh, what's your point?

They apparently haven't heard the term best buddy. Buddy has been neutral for a long time. Growing up we just called each other buddies. It's not meant to be him or her rather an encompassing term long ago.

My dad actually used to call everyone buddy.

Now as a form of implied familiarity? Yeah buddy can be construed as that (except the way my dad did it was because he was awful with names lol) but in terms of male? Nah. That guy was decades behind the times on that one.

 

[Disneylover99]

I've never thought that. My son's male kindergarten teacher called all the kids 'friends' in his class everyday. The kids loved it.

Many teachers use the term friend or friends when interacting with their students.. They are in a position of trust. They know your child. I’m totally fine with this

So, I should clarify. I get a creepy vibe when adults, like a Cast Member, who do not know a child, refer to them as friend.

 

[lotsohugginbear]

@ Skipped Dave,
I wrote to WDW guest relations regarding the overuse of gender specific greetings. I didn't call any cast member out. I just brought to their attention that me and my child were constantly called by Ladies or Ma'am or even Girls. A simple: " Hi, Can I take your order? " is fine.

 

[HopperFan]

This does bring up a really trivial point that I worry overshadows the important element of this discussion. But I'll go there and hope for the best. When I last went to Monsters Inc Laugh Floor, I was "That guy" (which I hated - not in a bad "I'll never come back" way but in the "I really, really don't like attention" way - and endured my time in the hot seat just fine). As I identify as a guy/male, etc, it's fine with me (I'm equally pretty fine with fluidity in gender roles and I'd never be upset with someone referring to me as they/them, just as I found it interesting that a couple of friends were 100% positive I was a trans man when we first met). I imagine that my oldest, in particular, would really struggle with the label "that guy" as they don't identify as a guy (but were assigned male at birth).

"That person" or "that human" doesn't quite convey the thing in the English language that "that guy" (or even the phrase, which I don't think I hear ever, "that gal"). My academic background is in Race and Gender Studies (formally, though it also included things like disability and class) - it makes me wonder if there are DEI Readers amongst the Imagineering staff looking at old attractions (I trust it's happening for new ones) ... and if not, I volunteer!

Am from up north, everyone was "you guys" and I still use it. It is totally non-gendered in most context. But yes in Monster Laugh Floor it is tied to a specific joke. It wouldn't bother me at all if they referred to me as "that guy" other than like you I hate the attention. Difference is I avoid that show because of it.

I haven't agreed with you on a lot things in this thread, but I do agree with you here. This is why I say that it needs to be a conversation and not just hard rules. There is more than one way to seek diversity and inclusion, more than one way to be an ally. Too often today there is only one thing that is determined to be "right" and if you disagree then you are immediately the enemy. That is counter-productive. I have shared my ideas and tactics, but I'm also not saying that everyone has to do it that way. It's just a point to consider is all (and it did help me when I was bullied as a kid, so it's what I figured out works for me).

But isn't the situation here is that Disney has decided how they want all CMs to greet/announce etc their guests. They have 60,000+ employees just in Orlando, their guidelines tend to be clear without variation for interpretation. They have chosen to go generic, end of the story.

Now if the change in policy is a deal breaker for a guest, that is their decision to make and I support someone not going because of it.

I'm at WDW now, and I made a lot of new "friends" today. This is great! It's hard to make new friends when you're in your fifties. I can't wait to go out to dinner with these new friends.
But seriously, on our June trip, I felt like a waiter was intentionally calling my kid Ma'am. What twenty-two year old is a Ma'am?? The waiter was my age! I didn't call this waiter out when I contacted guest relations, but I do think there was some intentionality in their behavior. As a parent, this really made me sad.

@ Skipped Dave,
I wrote to WDW guest relations regarding the overuse of gender specific greetings. I didn't call any cast member out. I just brought to their attention that me and my child were constantly called by Ladies or Ma'am or even Girls. A simple: " Hi, Can I take your order? " is fine.

I'm from up north so when I moved south it took quite some time to get used to be called Ma'am, even at 11 years old. It's just how they speak and their Mamma would be all over them if they didn't. Likely this CM was raised to said sir and ma'am. I understand it wasn't something you were not comfortable with but I assure you it was likely ingrained in them from a very young age to use each and every time, and was used in respect.

Perhaps it was your comment to GR and others like it that got us "friends".

The only slightly weird story I have from personal experience is when I was ushering a line forward at Pirates and I told a young toddler girl, "right this way, buddy!"

And her dad said, "Buddy? She's a girl."

Uh, what's your point?

A buddy is a friend. The End. Just because some people name their dogs or kids buddy doesn't change the concept. I think it works well in that context, and is nongendered.

 

[BrianL]

But isn't the situation here is that Disney has decided how they want all CMs to greet/announce etc their guests. They have 60,000+ employees just in Orlando, their guidelines tend to be clear without variation for interpretation. They have chosen to go generic, end of the story.

Yeah, but my point is that I don't feel that the rule is necessary and may also be counter-productive - not just with Disney but in general. It may be that there is a rule and you're right, it is up to an individual to decide if that rule matters enough to them to not go. For me it doesn't as it is not a big issue for me even if I do think it's unnecessary.

 

[HopperFan]

Yeah, but my point is that I don't feel that the rule is necessary and may also be counter-productive - not just with Disney but in general. It may be that there is a rule and you're right, it is up to an individual to decide if that rule matters enough to them to not go. For me it doesn't as it is not a big issue for me even if I do think it's unnecessary.

But Disney has to have a rule of expectation for their CMs in areas like this. Just like they point with two fingers. Not necessary but they still ALL do it. Some avoid pointing probably because of it, and I expect some will now not address you which some might find off putting.

It doesn't matter if something is necessary, unnecessary, indifferent, happy about it, mad about it to all ... it is what they are doing and everyone there has to follow the same standard. You can't have a place that big letting CMs make their own judgement call per guest .. that is when things will really explode. Say CM calls one girl in Belle tshirt Princess but the next girl is more of a tomboy so CM doesn't call her Princess ... Mom is stomping to GR to complain. Lose Lose for Disney so they are making what they think is best call for them.

 

[Brian Noble]

It's official.

During our last trip (March '22), I was struck by the consistent use of "friends" by CMs in very different organizations, park ops, parking, resorts, etc. We had one of the AK tours booked, and while we were on tour I asked the CM who was leading it about it: was this an instruction from above? It seemed like it had to be, because it was so consistent.

The response: no, it was just something that the Cast have been picking up from one another organically. No directive, no formal change, just an evolution of the way the Cast used language.

If that's accurate, then this is less a change than it is just catching up with what the Cast are doing anyway.

(For the record, I think this is a positive change, but that's neither here nor there; I never left college, so I'm surrounded by an age cohort that's adopting these changes for themselves more quickly than most.)

Edited to add: I spent some time in Pittsburgh, where I quickly adopted yinz as the second person plural. I have since switched to y'all, despite never living south of the Mason-Dixon line.

 

[BrianL]

But Disney has to have a rule of expectation for their CMs in areas like this. Just like they point with two fingers. Not necessary but they still ALL do it. Some avoid pointing probably because of it, and I expect some will now not address you which some might find off putting.

It doesn't matter if something is necessary, unnecessary, indifferent, happy about it, mad about it to all ... it is what they are doing and everyone there has to follow the same standard. You can't have a place that big letting CMs make their own judgement call per guest .. that is when things will really explode. Say CM calls one girl in Belle tshirt Princess but the next girl is more of a tomboy so CM doesn't call her Princess ... Mom is stomping to GR to complain. Lose Lose for Disney so they are making what they think is best call for them.

The thing is, as this thread has proven, literally EVERYTHING can be off-putting to someone. There is no way to get it right for everyone. Of course there would have to be guidelines, there always have been so you don't have CM's saying, "Hey, jerkwad...." - seriously though, would that happen? Unlikely, which is why I think it's a bit unnecessary to restrict all greetings to a few specific words (if that is even actually happening, which is a different issue). And sure, Disney can do what they want and we can't do anytihng about it, but we can discuss it - it's academic.

 

[Brian Noble]

literally EVERYTHING can be off-putting to someone

True. But, to me it appears to be asymmetric. Using a gender-neutral term that sounds a little harsh on the ear might bother someone a little bit. Mis-gendering someone feels harsher than that.

So, even though there exist people who can take exception to any particular direction, there still might be reasons to pick one direction over another if you are a business who makes money by selling happiness.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

If that's accurate, then this is less a change than it is just catching up with what the Cast are doing anyway.

I don't think it was a "retrain everyone all at once in a giant conference room meeting" kind of thing... more "catch the new hires as they go through Traditions and let it filter out into the org."

 

[Brian Noble]

Could be. That would feel organic to the more established Cast (and the CM I asked had been there for a good while.)

 

[afan]

True. But, to me it appears to be asymmetric. Using a gender-neutral term that sounds a little harsh on the ear might bother someone a little bit. Mis-gendering someone feels harsher than that.

So, even though there exist people who can take exception to any particular direction, there still might be reasons to pick one direction over another if you are a business who makes money by selling happiness.

I also think it's potentially more harmful to the person (whatever age) is misgendered than it is to the person that doesn't want to be called friend.

Whether people think it should be brushed off or not, people (of any age) are still bullied and mistreated for various reasons and if Disney wants to help make their parks the happiest and most magical by calling people friends to avoid making things worse it's fantastic.

If being called friend is really that offensive to you then try taking that offense and imagining what the misgendered person would feel like being called prince/princess and then probably magnify it a bit since it happens more often than you being called friend does.

 

[HopperFan]

The thing is, as this thread has proven, literally EVERYTHING can be off-putting to someone. There is no way to get it right for everyone. Of course there would have to be guidelines, there always have been so you don't have CM's saying, "Hey, jerkwad...." - seriously though, would that happen? Unlikely, which is why I think it's a bit unnecessary to restrict all greetings to a few specific words (if that is even actually happening, which is a different issue). And sure, Disney can do what they want and we can't do anytihng about it, but we can discuss it - it's academic.

I think it's good discussion for life overall and the social world - there is so much becoming more common that some don't understand, and that is lots for some people to absorb.

I don't think it's a necessary discussion for Disney or any other corporation that is doing something quite benign to be more nonspecific to avoid "humans" being offended. Their company, their choice .. why waste energy on it?

Right here we see that at Disney people are upset to be called ... ma'am, sir, princess, prince, mr, mrs, miss, ms, ladies, gentlemen, friend, buddy, that guy, you guys ... it's impossible for Disney. Someone will always be mad for whatever personal reason so "friend" seems the most generic non-offensive.

Do I get the angst? No. For over 10 years on THIS forum posters referred to me - as him. I'm not. I didn't care because in the context is simply isn't important. I've been called worse, I don't care.

But if my child or friend or family member was struggling and working hard at their identity and a CM misgendered them, I can empathize with that. It's a hard road most of us can never understand so I would hope other guests can have a bit of humanity and just accept being called friend. And if it kills you - don't go. The end.

 

[lowlight]

The response: no, it was just something that the Cast have been picking up from one another organically. No directive, no formal change, just an evolution of the way the Cast used language.

I'm going to have to disagree that any of the word substitution going on these days is organic. Slang is organic, this is newspeak.