NYC getting looted live on a youtube feed Monday 9 pm sad

[JimMIA]

Thanks for adding that to the conversation for some background. Consistency can still be questioned though, both for decisions made and use of force.

Oh absolutely! The law is the law, but judgement is required in making those calls, and it's not always going to be perfect.

Just because some supervisor reads an unlawful assembly declaration to shut something down doesn't mean his/her decision is correct. Both the public and the departments can, and SHOULD, review all of those decisions.

What it does mean, though, is that people need to comply. They certainly have every right to criticize the decision later, but right now they either comply or they go to jail.

Not you personally, but I'm seeing alot of shutting down the whole issue on 'look at the destruction, look at the officers hurt.' While those are horrible, they're being use to invalidate the protest. It's the shortcut used to deny we still have a severe and dysfunctional problem.

Destruction, injuries, public safety concerns like traffic, sanitation, etc. are all legitimate reasons for permitting that sets reasonable limitations and restrictions on the demonstrations to make them safer for everyone.

They are NOT legitimate reasons to say "NO demonstrations."

 

[andyman8]

The reality is that most cities require permits to assemble and protest.

Locally, the tear gas is being fired once we get past the time of curfew. Basically, go home before curfew or experience tear gas.

At the end of the day, I expect nothing to change.

This is actually incorrect. As a resident of downtown DC (which has looser demonstration laws than many other municipalities you’re referencing), I and other friends and coworkers have seen (on a number of occasions) “tear-inducing chemicals” fired in daylight and before curfew hours. That is to say, as someone who studied Constitutional Law, I think the issue of restrictions and limitations to Constitutional rights is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. It varies greatly by state and local municipality.

I must also ask genuinely: do you expect nothing to change or do you want nothing to change? Call me naive or an optimist but most Constitutional scholars generally agree (which is a rarity) that the exercising of Constitutional rights (especially the First Amendment) are the primary mechanism for bringing about change in the U.S. If you want change, there’s a lot you can do.

 

[julietsstars]

There are videos circulating on twitter of cops around the country unloading and stacking bricks by locations where protests were scheduled. The most recent one I saw was in Boston. No, I'm not posting the video due to language.

Thank you for mentioning this. At first, it was just snapshots of these crates of bricks and no one knew where they came from. Now, there was video footage of police escorts in dropping off the bricks. Lastly, I know bricks were used as a deterrent in Hong Kong - wondering if that was the actual intent.

 

[JimMIA]

Thank you for mentioning this. At first, it was just snapshots of these crates of bricks and no one knew where they came from. Now, there was video footage of police escorts in dropping off the bricks. Lastly, I know bricks were used as a deterrent in Hong Kong - wondering if that was the actual intent.

Those stories are false, and were debunked by several national news organizations several days ago. There are links about the debunking if you read further into the thread.

 

[julietsstars]

Those stories are false, and were debunked by several national news organizations several days ago. There are links about the debunking if you read further into the thread.

Yes, thank you!! Im just making my way meandering through the threads Glad to know it was fake, but I sure wish that the crews that placed them for construction would remove them ahead of protests!

 

[RamblingMad]

This is actually incorrect. As a resident of downtown DC (which has looser demonstration laws than many other municipalities you’re referencing), I and other friends and coworkers have seen (on a number of occasions) “tear-inducing chemicals” fired in daylight and before curfew hours. That is to say, as someone who studied Constitutional Law, I think the issue of restrictions and limitations to Constitutional rights is not nearly as simple as you make it out to be. It varies greatly by state and local municipality.

I must also ask genuinely: do you expect nothing to change or do you want nothing to change? Call me naive or an optimist but most Constitutional scholars generally agree (which is a rarity) that the exercising of Constitutional rights (especially the First Amendment) are the primary mechanism for bringing about change in the U.S. If you want change, there’s a lot you can do.

I think, we see change as older generations die off. This, I think, is mostly due to older voters being the majority of voters. Maybe in another twenty years you’ll see some change, and it won’t be the same across the county.

As for the first amendment, we have learned over the last decade that social media can be weaponized. I’m fairly certain the founding fathers weren’t anticipating twitter or Facebook.

 

[Mackenzie Click-Mickelson]

Yes, thank you!! Im just making my way meandering through the threads Glad to know it was fake, but I sure wish that the crews that placed them for construction would remove them ahead of protests!

I don't think many of them even had the chance TBH. One was an HOA project I believe too.

The protests here in my area have been going on since 5 days now and the place where the main protests are happening has been closed to the public (it's an outdoor shopping/high vehicle traffic area) since 5pm Saturday. No one would have even known to remove such things, nor had the chance to.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2020/06/02/northeastern-police-bricks-truck-video

 

[RamblingMad]

https://www.boston.com/news/local-news/2020/06/02/northeastern-police-bricks-truck-video

I can’t believe this nonsense went viral.

 

[Imzadi]

Three more officers are charged in George Floyd’s death, and officials upgrade charges against Derek Chauvin

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/us/live-george-floyd-protests-today.html

Minnesota officials charged three more former police officers on Wednesday in the death of George Floyd, and added a higher charge to those already lodged against the former officer who held his knee to Mr. Floyd’s neck for nearly nine minutes.​

​

Keith Ellison, the attorney general of Minnesota, announced the charges at a news conference Wednesday afternoon.​

​

The three, Thomas Lane, 37, J. Alexander Kueng, 26, and Tou Thao, 34, were charged with aiding and abetting murder, court records show. Mr. Kueng was in custody on Wednesday, county jail records showed; warrants were issued for Mr. Lane and Mr. Thao.​

​

The fourth, Derek Chauvin, 44, who was arrested last week, faces an increased charge of second-degree murder.​

​

 

[Lumpy1106]

Here's what happened in my home town;
Long Beach Protests and the start of the trouble
As for the final statement,

Until then, we’ll keep protesting. And anarchists will continue to try and subjugate the message. Hopefully people and police can see the difference now.

I disagree with the call to continued action, but I think the protests will naturally run their course sometime this week. That said, another protest is scheduled on the other side of town this afternoon. Here's hoping the businesses there, so far largely unscathed, come through tonight OK.

 

[andyman8]

I think, we see change as older generations die off. This, I think, is mostly due to older voters being the majority of voters. Maybe in another twenty years you’ll see some change, and it won’t be the same across the county.

As for the first amendment, we have learned over the last decade that social media can be weaponized. I’m fairly certain the founding fathers weren’t anticipating twitter or Facebook.

We’ll just have to agree to disagree on that. I think change comes from multiple sources and is multidimensional. The generational changes you speak of certainly are one source, but open communication, protests, local and regional elections, and many more things are also dimensions and factors to consider when asking “what causes change?”. Ultimately, change is not unilateral; it’s varying shades of progress working toward a goal.

I’m not sure what social media has to do with that. If you’re suggesting that my account of what happened in the District was based on social media, it was not. I saw it. Anyways, the First Amendment has changed and adapted over the years with new mediums introduced. It adapted to radio, television, and many other advances in communication. I think you underestimate our Founding Fathers. While I doubt they foresaw social media specifically or many elements of current American society, they did foresee unforeseen changes, meaning they designed the Constitution as a living document that could be changed and have certain elements adapted differently based on differing situations in differing places. That’s why we have amendments, state constitutions, etc...

 

[Heather07438]

Email from school today. Does this come from indifference at home? You know, "Not our problem."
Maybe it is if it's how our children are influenced.

There is hope. I've seen it get better generation to generation. More people aren't letting it slide.
Challenge it. A simple 'I don't agree' can suffice.

Imagine this middle class student from Vernon. Think this was the first time he's been reminded that his color will be the first thing he is judged or the weapon used against him?

 

[JimMIA]

I think change comes from multiple sources and is multidimensional. The generational changes you speak of certainly are one source, but open communication, protests, local and regional elections, and many more things are also dimensions and factors to consider when asking “what causes change?”. Ultimately, change is not unilateral; it’s varying shades of progress working toward a goal.

Change is also clockwise, counter-clockwise, and omni-clockwise. And it ebbs and flows, like the tides. smh.

The thing that a lot of people don't realize about THIS kind of change is that what is needed is very specific, and can only be accomplished one police department at a time.

This is NOT something where you're going to pass one law at either the state, county, or national level and mandate anything effective. The culture of thousands of individual police departments have to be changed.

Those changes can be influenced from outside, but to be lasting and effective, they must come from within. And to make it even more difficult, every department has a completely different legal framework, labor union environment, history, culture, and leadership.

From personal experience, I can tell you that there are several key components to effecting change.

It's not about the "vision" and other psycho-babble.

It's about how the system works in practice, not in theory. The keys are:

• How complaints are received. What is the mechanism for a citizen to complain about an officer or the service they received from the department? Is it open and honest? Are anonymous complaints accepted? (Yes, anonymous complaints are problematic and difficult to impossible to prove, but why would you not at least look at them?) Is there easy access to make a complaint, or does the citizen have to jump through hoops?
• How are complaints investigated? Complaints have to be investigated in a completely straight-up manner. A legitimate, thorough, detailed investigation is not a threat to officers. In fact, it is their best friend...unless they are wrong. Whatever the outcome, the investigation must be fair, complete, and open-minded. All investigations must also go beyond the original scope of the complaint and follow wherever the evidence leads, no matter who or what is involved.
• How are decisions of culpability reached? Do the investigators decide guilt or innocence? If so, nobody's going to have much confidence in the decisions, and there will be no checks and balances on their work. Ideally, these decisions should be made by officials outside the officer's immediate chain of command to help ensure an unbiased look at the facts.
• Do the decision-makers mete out punishment? If so, that is also a conflict. Ideally, any punishment would be subject to review to ensure the officer's legal and contractural rights were observed, and also to ensure that the punishment was consistent with other similar cases.
• Is discipline consistent, fair, and appropriate to the offense? Or does the officer get a written reprimand for a major violation or criminal act?
• Are both the decisions and disciplinary actions transparent to the general public?

If you have a system where complaints really are legitimately investigated, appropriate culpability determinations really are made, and legitimate, systematic, consistent, and fair discipline is reliably applied -- the organizational culture WILL change.

"Standing up" and "calling out" only goes so far. It may feel good, and make us all proud of ourselves, but it rarely accomplishes much of lasting importance. Cool Instagram memories, but little real substance.

Real change must be very meticulously developed and implemented. Anything else is just kidding ourselves and will be counterproductive.

 

[RamblingMad]

This is the feed that I watch.

 

[RamblingMad]

And here is Atlanta. Check out the difference between Atlanta and LA.

 

[Imzadi]

A college football player from Tulsa, OK, has tested positive for COVID-19 after attending a protest. He says he was asymptomatic (which is still infectious.)

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-new...yer-says-he-tested-positive-covid-19-n1224166

 

[Heather07438]

Change is also clockwise, counter-clockwise, and omni-clockwise. And it ebbs and flows, like the tides. smh.

The thing that a lot of people don't realize about THIS kind of change is that what is needed is very specific, and can only be accomplished one police department at a time.

This is NOT something where you're going to pass one law at either the state, county, or national level and mandate anything effective. The culture of thousands of individual police departments have to be changed.

Those changes can be influenced from outside, but to be lasting and effective, they must come from within. And to make it even more difficult, every department has a completely different legal framework, labor union environment, history, culture, and leadership.

From personal experience, I can tell you that there are several key components to effecting change.

It's not about the "vision" and other psycho-babble.

It's about how the system works in practice, not in theory. The keys are:

• How complaints are received. What is the mechanism for a citizen to complain about an officer or the service they received from the department? Is it open and honest? Are anonymous complaints accepted? (Yes, anonymous complaints are problematic and difficult to impossible to prove, but why would you not at least look at them?) Is there easy access to make a complaint, or does the citizen have to jump through hoops?
• How are complaints investigated? Complaints have to be investigated in a completely straight-up manner. A legitimate, thorough, detailed investigation is not a threat to officers. In fact, it is their best friend...unless they are wrong. Whatever the outcome, the investigation must be fair, complete, and open-minded. All investigations must also go beyond the original scope of the complaint and follow wherever the evidence leads, no matter who or what is involved.
• How are decisions of culpability reached? Do the investigators decide guilt or innocence? If so, nobody's going to have much confidence in the decisions, and there will be no checks and balances on their work. Ideally, these decisions should be made by officials outside the officer's immediate chain of command to help ensure an unbiased look at the facts.
• Do the decision-makers mete out punishment? If so, that is also a conflict. Ideally, any punishment would be subject to review to ensure the officer's legal and contractural rights were observed, and also to ensure that the punishment was consistent with other similar cases.
• Is discipline consistent, fair, and appropriate to the offense? Or does the officer get a written reprimand for a major violation or criminal act?
• Are both the decisions and disciplinary actions transparent to the general public?

If you have a system where complaints really are legitimately investigated, appropriate culpability determinations really are made, and legitimate, systematic, consistent, and fair discipline is reliably applied -- the organizational culture WILL change.

"Standing up" and "calling out" only goes so far. It may feel good, and make us all proud of ourselves, but it rarely accomplishes much of lasting importance. Cool Instagram memories, but little real substance.

Real change must be very meticulously developed and implemented. Anything else is just kidding ourselves and will be counterproductive.

Looks like a solid approach to address police brutality at the departmental level. Differences in dept's are something to recognize, like why do many dept's in Minnesota seem to struggle so frequently. We shouldn't overlook those doing a stellar job. But where does the organizational culture come from? It's not just inside.

The protests are centered around police brutality where egregious examples of excessive and disproportionate force is used. Cases are a mix of how violent, evident, or abusive bias gets. The protests are not only that. The whole world is reacting to bias feeding inequality into organizational culture, brutality, excessive force, and many other life altering distortions.

It's time to fix these dept'l issues and also realize how bias plays into it. Things we can fix here like the normalization, severity, and effects of bigotry. Police brutality isn't the whole story. It's the head of a pimple. Adjusting policy to fix this at the source helps but we also need to question the destructive bias in our every day lives. They are connected.

 

[kerry1379]

Let me start by saying that, while I don't know what so many of those protesting have encountered in their lives and can understand that they are hurting and that things need to change, I am also deeply concerned about the riots. I can understand, to an extent, the recent social media posts that have called the riots the "language of the unheard." But on the other hand, I think respect for the difficult job that many, many good police officers do needs to be equally expressed. I was just reading a news article about the difficulty the NYPD is facing and that the Governor doesn't think they are doing enough despite extended shifts, no time off, as well as death threats and violence constantly being thrown at them. And this may make me a coward, but I couldn't help but think, "I couldn't do it." I could not do their job. I think communities need to be very careful about legitimizing the riots because what happens if all of the police just say, I give up. I can't do this anymore. Then what? Does anarchy rein? Does the military get called in? In either case, all talk and progress that has been made comes to a halt and our society spirals further down. We NEED law enforcement and are depending on them to take the next step in changing policy. Without that, there hasn't been progress and change-just chaos in the last week. I am hopeful from the many news articles that I have seen showing good interactions between protesters and law enforcement that many recognize this too. And I know that some of the rioters don't care one bit about progress or the cause the protesters are fighting for. But I hope more and more people do realize that we need to work together. Maybe that can effectively stop those only interested in sewing ******* and hate.

 

[shelemm]

Let me start by saying that, while I don't know what so many of those protesting have encountered in their lives and can understand that they are hurting and that things need to change, I am also deeply concerned about the riots. I can understand, to an extent, the recent social media posts that have called the riots the "language of the unheard." But on the other hand, I think respect for the difficult job that many, many good police officers do needs to be equally expressed. I was just reading a news article about the difficulty the NYPD is facing and that the Governor doesn't think they are doing enough despite extended shifts, no time off, as well as death threats and violence constantly being thrown at them. And this may make me a coward, but I couldn't help but think, "I couldn't do it." I could not do their job. I think communities need to be very careful about legitimizing the riots because what happens if all of the police just say, I give up. I can't do this anymore. Then what? Does anarchy rein? Does the military get called in? In either case, all talk and progress that has been made comes to a halt and our society spirals further down. We NEED law enforcement and are depending on them to take the next step in changing policy. Without that, there hasn't been progress and change-just chaos in the last week. I am hopeful from the many news articles that I have seen showing good interactions between protesters and law enforcement that many recognize this too. And I know that some of the rioters don't care one bit about progress or the cause the protesters are fighting for. But I hope more and more people do realize that we need to work together. Maybe that can effectively stop those only interested in sewing ******* and hate.

I like your post, but also want to mention that in some cases Accelerationists have taken this opportunity to create their own unique brand of havoc. So far, I haven't seen any reports about what happened to that guy in DC who the protesters turned over to the police after he was seen destroying the sidewalk with a hammer.