Rented points problem

[Chuck S]

Signing the contract at purchase does not disolve Disney of any and all responsibility in these matters. Even with a contract designed to absolve an entity of any responsility in a given area, if due care is not exercised the responsibility can still reside at least partially with the entity. For example, I could have guests sign a liability waiver before they come on my property, but if they are injured due to my negligence I would still be responsible. That being said, in this case Disney's failure to protect the owners from fraud probably does not rise to the level necessary to shift responsibility back to them. I don't believe anyone is saying that it does. What is being said is that it would be nice (and yes, I believe ethical) if Disney took some minor common sense steps like charging the card more often or allowing owners to block room charging privelages.




Again noone is saying that the contract should not be honored. they are postulating as to what steps could be taken as to limiting the damage when these instances of fraud occur. Simply following a contract does not guarantee ethical behavior. It is sad that so many in the world believe that to be the case.

So, you would consider it ethical for Disney to lower the charge limit for the sole purpose of protecting an owner that chooses to rent? What if the contract needed to be renegotiated, involving attorneys fees that are paid for by dues, to do so, in essence charging all members to protect those that rent. Sorry, I absolutely would not consider that ethical.

Nor would I consider it ethical for Disney to treat all members differently, as far as charging limits, vs. other cash guests, solely to protect renting members. I know that a $500 limit would not be convenient for me, since the room charge shuts down when it reaches the limit. And I really don't see Disney treating people treating people that rent from a DVC Owner differently than an owner, or any other cash resort guest, as being ethical.

The owner has a choice as to whether to rent or not, and should accept the responsibilites that go along with that choice.

 

[Deb & Bill]

If you are unhappy with DVC requiring the member to be responsible for guests/renters staying on their reservation, contact Member Satisfaction and let them know how you feel. It won't be resolved on the DIS and you can go on and on without any resolution here.

Or should it happen to you, you could take DVC to court, but I'm gonna bet their lawyers are better than yours.

 

[hanse]

So - this may not be the appropriate forum for this, but in reading all the posts in regard to this problem, it does make me wonder if transferring points as opposed to renting them, might not be better?

I understand that Disney has indicated that it should not be done for money, but is it really any different than making a reservation for someone for a fee per point? And would not a transfer provide better protection than making a reservation for someone? (assuming the other person is a disney owner and has an account to transfer to)

 

[Chuck S]

When you transfer, the points in essence, become their points. They are responsible for the reservaton and any charges, not the original owner of the points. SO yes, in that respect it is a much safer transaction. The risk involved in making sure you are paid for the transaction, as transfers are final. If the receiving member does not pay you, the points are lost...you can not cancel the reservation as you can with a standard point rental.

But given the choice, I'd rather someone stiff me on the transfer than leave me with an unexpected bill.

 

[CarolMN]

Don't recall ever reading about any point transfer problems as far as fraud/money goes.

 

[zebsterama]

From wikiHow - "How To Check Into A Hotel"

From the tips section:
"Always have a credit card for emergencies, as most hotels require a credit card for a security deposit even if you pay cash."

Making sure you pay your bill before you leave isn't a priority at Disney, because it makes sense, and even if it doesn't make sense, it doesn't matter, because it's in the contract.

How dare you rent your vacation club points!

Cheers,
Zebsterama

 

[maburke]

Don't recall ever reading about any point transfer problems as far as fraud/money goes.

Um, Carol, are you repressing the memory of that most infamous thread from 2006 that pops up here at least twice a year? I hesitate to give details for fear of it returning again, but it basically involved someone wiring money for a transfer that never happened.

The fact is that a transfer, once completed, leaves everybody safe, but the process of transferring of points for money can still be risky, especially since DVC REALLY won't get involved in that one, as it's against the rules.

 

[crisi]

From wikiHow - "How To Check Into A Hotel"

From the tips section:
"Always have a credit card for emergencies, as most hotels require a credit card for a security deposit even if you pay cash."

Making sure you pay your bill before you leave isn't a priority at Disney, because it makes sense, and even if it doesn't make sense, it doesn't matter, because it's in the contract.

How dare you rent your vacation club points!

Cheers,
Zebsterama

You do know that DVC is a timeshare and not a hotel, right?

 

[DebbieB]

Years ago my Mom and I took charter bus trips to various locations. Since we paid as a group, we did not individually check-in, they just came on the bus and passed out the key envelopes. Many times we had to go to the front desk and present a credit card if we wanted the phone turned on, even to use it for 800# calls to a phone card. Does Disney do that? I would also think a credit card would have to be on file in order to order internet service if you are not a member and have to pay. I've always presented a credit card, so I wondered what would happen if you did not and wanted to use the phone or internet.

 

[starry_solo]

I am primarily a lurker but saw this topic and wanted to make a few suggestions to the OP.

1. Send a letter to the renter at her WORK address to advise her of the charges. Let her know that if she doesn't pay by a certain date (give her 15-30 days), you will have no choice but to send a letter to the president, chancellor, head of her department;

2. If she doesn't pay up, send a letter to the chancellor, president, head of the department where she works to advise them of the dispute (offer to provide copies of the contract, but provide a copy of the charges that Disney says she owes). Most colleges expect their teachers to be above reproach, etc. If they find out that she has scammed you, they may find out that she has scammed others within her community;

3. File a police report - in FL, your home state, and the state where she resides. I believe it is called innkeeper fraud/defrauding an innkeeper (that's what Randy Quaid and his wife were arrested for in CA). It is a crime and, at least, you will have a police report handy.

4. See if your homeowner's insurance policy will cover this. You may be surprised at what they cover.

Those are all my suggestions. I will be a first time renter in April 2011 and I do not plan to use room-charging privileges (hard to keep track of what you charge). When I go to WDW, I won't be doing that either; otherwise, that's just another receipt I have to keep and track!

 

[dianeschlicht]

Years ago my Mom and I took charter bus trips to various locations. Since we paid as a group, we did not individually check-in, they just came on the bus and passed out the key envelopes. Many times we had to go to the front desk and present a credit card if we wanted the phone turned on, even to use it for 800# calls to a phone card. Does Disney do that? I would also think a credit card would have to be on file in order to order internet service if you are not a member and have to pay. I've always presented a credit card, so I wondered what would happen if you did not and wanted to use the phone or internet.

No, you do NOT have to present a credit card at check in. We never do. If there are charges, they will be listed in your bill on check out morning. Since we never have any charges, it's a moot point.

 

[DebbieB]

No, you do NOT have to present a credit card at check in. We never do. If there are charges, they will be listed in your bill on check out morning. Since we never have any charges, it's a moot point.

I know you don't have to present a credit card but if you don't, will they allow you to use the phone or internet (non-members) without some kind of pre-payment? They are taking a chance if they don't, you could run up a bill and then skip off.

 

[delmar411]

I know you don't have to present a credit card but if you don't, will they allow you to use the phone or internet (non-members) without some kind of pre-payment? They are taking a chance if they don't, you could run up a bill and then skip off.

yes you can use the phone. The internet requires a CC on file to use.

 

[CarolMN]

Um, Carol, are you repressing the memory of that most infamous thread from 2006 that pops up here at least twice a year? I hesitate to give details for fear of it returning again, but it basically involved someone wiring money for a transfer that never happened.

The fact is that a transfer, once completed, leaves everybody safe, but the process of transferring of points for money can still be risky, especially since DVC REALLY won't get involved in that one, as it's against the rules.

As I recall, the wire transfer was made in payment for a reservation that didn't get made. The person committing the fraud was not even a DVC member. It was not a transfer of points between members.

There is certainly some risk in point transfers, but IMO it is much less than for reservations.

 

[dbs1228]

yes you can use the phone. The internet requires a CC on file to use.

My daughter and 3 friends used my points this summer at BWV and when I called MS to ask about internet (or rather if public areas had wifi) I was told no but if the reservation was booked on points then they would not be charged internet access fees. (MS put me on hold and actually called BWV for me to find out what the options were) The res was made in my DD friends name since my DD was 17 at the time. None are DVC members. They used the internet daily and were never charged, no cc was left since none of them had a cc.

 

[JimMIA]

Don't recall ever reading about any point transfer problems as far as fraud/money goes.

REALLY? Does "Sad Story" ring a bell????

Dani's transaction was a transfer that didn't happen, and there was a prior victim of the same crook who got a partial transfer, but not all the points he paid for.

 

[JimMIA]

As I recall, the wire transfer was made in payment for a reservation that didn't get made. The person committing the fraud was not even a DVC member. It was not a transfer of points between members.

There is certainly some risk in point transfers, but IMO it is much less than for reservations.

Nope. Dani's case (the OP in that saga) was a points transfer that never happened.

Stacey's case (the second case to come to light publicly) was the one where no reservation was ever made.

And although the crook was not a DVC owner, she was an associate on her aunt's account and had full access to the account. In fact, she had done at least one successful rental previously. After the "Sad Story" fiasco, the aunt actually transferred the DVC account to the crook, making her a full-fledged DVC owner. Hopefully she got foreclosed.

 

[CarolMN]

Um, Carol, are you repressing the memory of that most infamous thread from 2006 that pops up here at least twice a year? I hesitate to give details for fear of it returning again, but it basically involved someone wiring money for a transfer that never happened.

The fact is that a transfer, once completed, leaves everybody safe, but the process of transferring of points for money can still be risky, especially since DVC REALLY won't get involved in that one, as it's against the rules.

REALLY? Does "Sad Story" ring a bell????

Dani's transaction was a transfer that didn't happen, and there was a prior victim of the same crook who got a partial transfer, but not all the points he paid for.

I stand corrected. thank you.

But I still think point transfers carry less risk & (less work)than reservations.

Nope. Dani's case (the OP in that saga) was a points transfer that never happened.

Stacey's case (the second case to come to light publicly) was the one where no reservation was ever made.

And although the crook was not a DVC owner, she was an associate on her aunt's account and had full access to the account. In fact, she had done at least one successful rental previously. After the "Sad Story" fiasco, the aunt actually transferred the DVC account to the crook, making her a full-fledged DVC owner. Hopefully she got foreclosed.

 

[zebsterama]

You do know that DVC is a timeshare and not a hotel, right?

I'm aware.

I have, in the past checked into Disney as both a timeshare rental user (AKL) and a hotel (WL) and it was a very similar experience.

When they swiped my credit card during both stays, I assumed it was for the same reason.

I would think that they should enforce the same security check, and should take on the same liability regardless if I am a hotel guest or a timeshare guest; otherwise they shouldn't have need, in my opinion, to ask to swipe my Credit Card in the first place.

In my opinion making the timeshare owner responsible is ridiculous, even though it’s written that way in the contract.

 

[vicki_c]

I would think that they should enforce the same security check, and should take on the same liability regardless if I am a hotel guest or a timeshare guest; otherwise they shouldn't have need, in my opinion, to ask to swipe my Credit Card in the first place.

Disney doesn't actually have a NEED to do that, it is the guests' choice - it's for convenience. If you said no, Disney would not make you put any charge card down.

As stated a bunch of times I think - the difference is - Disney resorts are not making a profit from your DVC room rental. On a regular reservation they are, and therefore there are amounts in the budget for write-offs when people skip out. It's just a risk they are willing to take and if they have to charge it off or pursue someone for payment, it comes out of the profit. With a DVC rental, that is not the case because there isn't any profit.