The Learning Curve

[Pea-n-Me]

Regarding the exposure compensation thing... basically, you use it when the camera is not able to choose the correct exposure on its own. This usually happens when the photo is mostly black or mostly white, and it tries to over- or under-expose to bring out detail in the black or white area, meanwhile losing detail in other areas of the photo.

EC is necessary sometimes but it's also kind of a "band aid solution" - sometimes you can fix the problem better by getting the camera to do a better job metering right off the bat rather than telling it that it's always wrong. You do this by changing the metering mode; most DSLRs let you choose between spot metering, center-weighted, and the entire frame. Spot metering is best when you're focusing on one bright object surrounded by darkness (like on a Disney dark ride, for example), center-weighted is a good overall choice, entire frame is kind of like the "auto" mode - it does all the thinking itself.

Awesome information. And may explain a few things for me. I'll have to wrap my head around this for a while, ie how the two work together.

Metering was another thing I understood the concept of, but didn't quite know how to use properly. I'm still working on it. But at least using the bar helps everything overall.

Do people use bracketing very often? I just recently came to understand what it was, though I haven't used it yet. It gives three or more shots of the same thing at different levels of exposure, say -3, 0, and +3, for instance, that way you can pick which one works best.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I have a request for very experienced users.

Would you take us through your thought and action process when you're setting up a shot?

For instance, what things are you thinking about? And then, how does that transfer to what you set up on the camera? What actual settings do you adjust - everything, each time?

I found this kind of difficult on my recent trip. Much of the time, one thing was "off" - like I left the ISO on high from the previous night, or I had the vertical IS on instead of the horizontal, etc. Little things like that, but it seemed to happen often enough that I wondered how experienced users do it.

Is there a sequence for what to check? What about an Acronym? (If not, we should come up with one. )

 

[Pea-n-Me]

First Year, First Trip With DSLR, An Essay

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

Thank you for reviving this thread and the thoughts on exposure compensation.

I knew what EC was and why people would use it, but I couldn't seem to bring the whole exposure/EC thing together on my own camera.

UNTIL I had a revelation after post 331 on this thread - I couldn't understand whay Bryan Peterson kept saying "indicating a correct exposure" in his book and people here explained it to me.

That made a HUGE difference in how my everyday pictures were coming out. It took a little while to work with the details of it on my own camera, but once I did there was no going back (to overly dark or overly light pictures much of the time).

The most frustrated I was prior to that was one night my kids' guitar teacher invited us to a local pub to watch him play. I even took a tripod that night but none of my shots were decent, and it was because I couldn't get a proper exposure. I was guessing at it, that's why. Once I learned of that "bar", it changed the way I took pictures. Had I known this that night, betting good shots still may have been challenging, but not impossible. That was the closest I came to chucking the whole setup in the trash to be done with it.

Once again, indebted to my PB buddies.

So now, it's easy. It also brought me in to using Manual mode because that was how I first learned to use it, until I figured out how to use it on all the other modes. Heck, once I learned how, I simply explained it once to my 11yo and he got it right away.

I hope this helps someone else.

I think I'm having the same issues you were having. I thought what Peterson meant by "indicating a correct exposure" was that it would show up in the viewfinder as a correct exposure if the bars were all aligned right. But where I was getting confused is when I would attempt to use EC and the bars would go further the opposite way of how I wanted it to go. Does that make sense? Was that the same issue you were having? In the viewfinder it would look (based on the meter thing aka bars) that the photo would be more underexposed if I boosted EC, and it would show that it would be over exposed if I lowered it. So that was totally confusing the heck out of me. Gotta go find a band to practice shooting under spotlights. That would probably help me to practice what everyone has mentioned thus far...Anyway, were you having the same problems as me or am I the only one? What I was doing was raising the EC when I was in a dark situation and lowering it if I was in a bright situation. But I think, if I am not totally off base, that maybe I should have attempted to lower EC in a situation like F! while metering off Mickey's face for example. Is that correct? I usually shoot manual mode just because I'm trying to learn and figure out what gives me the best results. I recently started to shoot more in Aperture Priority and some Program mode just to see if I could get comparable results, or if it came out better than my M mode photos. It was when shooting in P mode with subjects back lit that I noticed a problem. Then when I switched to A and M the photos still were not up to par. (Too dark) Now I think I could have corrected that by using EC to brighten it up more...Is that right?

On my last DL trip I was so hyper focused on switching from A to M to P that several times I completely forgot to check my ISO! Coming out of a dark ride w/ 3200 ISO and trying to shoot Nemo in broad daylight -- not a good thing. So much to remember...That is the first time I've ever done that! Usually if I do forget, I'm shooting in M mode and the photo doesn't look right, so I catch it right off the bat. Not this time, and definitely not in P mode because the camera just adjusted to whatever the ISO setting was... I guess that's a whole other learning curve, huh?
I love this board. So far no one here has ever belittled me or made me feel like I was asking a really dumb question even though to the old pros, I'm sure this is a really dumb question and stupid mistakes!

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

I have a request for very experienced users.

Would you take us through your thought and action process when you're setting up a shot?

For instance, what things are you thinking about? And then, how does that transfer to what you set up on the camera? What actual settings do you adjust - everything, each time?

I found this kind of difficult on my recent trip. Much of the time, one thing was "off" - like I left the ISO on high from the previous night, or I had the vertical IS on instead of the horizontal, etc. Little things like that, but it seemed to happen often enough that I wondered how experienced users do it.
Is there a sequence for what to check? What about an Acronym? (If not, we should come up with one. )

I must've been composing my post when you posted yours! This is exactly the same issue I had on my last trip. If I'm not shooting M mode, then I don't seem to catch it if I left the camera with 3200 ISo from POTC!

 

[AndrewWG]

Have any of you used the New York Institute of Phtography? I've been thinking of trying them out. Would love to hear some feedback....

I am currently enrolled in NYIP. Is it good? Yes. Do I have time to complete the course with life being what it is nowadays? Probably not. The info WAS quite out dated when I received my package, but recently they have been updating it all to include much more digital information. It was mainly film based up until last year sometime. Totally outdated. If you do decide to try it, sign up for their information now. Get them to send you the info, then wait.... and wait.... and wait..... the price goes down considerably the more you hold off.

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

I am currently enrolled in NYIP. Is it good? Yes. Do I have time to complete the course with life being what it is nowadays? Probably not. The info WAS quite out dated when I received my package, but recently they have been updating it all to include much more digital information. It was mainly film based up until last year sometime. Totally outdated. If you do decide to try it, sign up for their information now. Get them to send you the info, then wait.... and wait.... and wait..... the price goes down considerably the more you hold off.

Thanks AndrewWG! I'll do that.

 

[AndrewWG]

Thanks AndrewWG! I'll do that.

No problem! If you have any more questions, send me a PM and I will be sure to answer them. There are other NYIPers on here too so maybe they will chime in with their thoughts.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I think I'm having the same issues you were having. I thought what Peterson meant by "indicating a correct exposure" was that it would show up in the viewfinder as a correct exposure if the bars were all aligned right. But where I was getting confused is when I would attempt to use EC and the bars would go further the opposite way of how I wanted it to go. Does that make sense?

Yes! On my camera, with certain settings you have to hold down the EC button while you turn the knob (semi auto modes A, S) to get it to go in whichever direction you want it to, and others you can turn it without holding it down (M). It took a little while to figure that out in using them. In theory, a zero reading should be properly exposed. This works most of the time, with the exception of bright sunlight. (Maybe, for me, this is where proper metering would be essential.) I find it works well in darker conditions.

Gotta go find a band to practice shooting under spotlights. That would probably help me to practice what everyone has mentioned thus far.

I think that's doubly challenging because of both the low light and movement combined. Beginning with a static low light subject might work better to start.

What I was doing was raising the EC when I was in a dark situation and lowering it if I was in a bright situation. But I think, if I am not totally off base, that maybe I should have attempted to lower EC in a situation like F! while metering off Mickey's face for example. Is that correct?

Personally, I haven't gotten as far as metering off a face yet. But I'll be working on it after this conversation. I have got to take a closer look at what each metering mode means, though I've got spot and evaluative down pretty well up to now.

I usually shoot manual mode just because I'm trying to learn and figure out what gives me the best results. I recently started to shoot more in Aperture Priority and some Program mode just to see if I could get comparable results, or if it came out better than my M mode photos. It was when shooting in P mode with subjects back lit that I noticed a problem. Then when I switched to A and M the photos still were not up to par. (Too dark) Now I think I could have corrected that by using EC to brighten it up more...Is that right?

I believe so. I don't have good luck with Program mode, though I used it a lot on my S3. It may be a matter of asking someone who has your same camera exactly how it works on yours.

Do you use this Histogram at all? This can help in giving you an idea of exposure (though I just recently figured out how to get it on 100% of the time on my own camera, LOL - before that it was a crapshoot. ) The other thing that I have as an option is my camera will "light up" just the underexposed areas of the pictures for you to see - but again, I'm not always sure how to get that to work and when I do, I don't know what to do with it.

(I still have some work to do with my owner's manual but I don't enjoy reading it at all. It's not presented in a style I like or find easy to use - I'm often still befuddled after reading something. I've had better luck watching the Lantern something video, though even most of that was way over my head for a while. But each time I watch it I pick up something new and one other thing clicks. So I just keep watching it every now and then. Funny, too, because I'm not always a visual learner, I'm more of a reading learner, so this has been another thing frustrating to me.)

I love this board. So far no one here has ever belittled me or made me feel like I was asking a really dumb question even though to the old pros, I'm sure this is a really dumb question and stupid mistakes!

Same here. I've learned so much just from reading here. It's easy to think that you're the "only one" who's not getting things, but once you start talking about it, others chime in who are feeling the same way. My hope in starting this thread was that it would be a "safe place" to come to ask even the dumbest of questions.

 

[wenrob]

I think I'm having the same issues you were having. I thought what Peterson meant by "indicating a correct exposure" was that it would show up in the viewfinder as a correct exposure if the bars were all aligned right. But where I was getting confused is when I would attempt to use EC and the bars would go further the opposite way of how I wanted it to go. Does that make sense? Was that the same issue you were having? In the viewfinder it would look (based on the meter thing aka bars) that the photo would be more underexposed if I boosted EC, and it would show that it would be over exposed if I lowered it. So that was totally confusing the heck out of me. Gotta go find a band to practice shooting under spotlights. That would probably help me to practice what everyone has mentioned thus far...Anyway, were you having the same problems as me or am I the only one?What I was doing was raising the EC when I was in a dark situation and lowering it if I was in a bright situation. But I think, if I am not totally off base, that maybe I should have attempted to lower EC in a situation like F! while metering off Mickey's face for example. Is that correct? I usually shoot manual mode just because I'm trying to learn and figure out what gives me the best results. I recently started to shoot more in Aperture Priority and some Program mode just to see if I could get comparable results, or if it came out better than my M mode photos. It was when shooting in P mode with subjects back lit that I noticed a problem. Then when I switched to A and M the photos still were not up to par. (Too dark) Now I think I could have corrected that by using EC to brighten it up more...Is that right?

Okay, now I'm confused, lol. Because I don't get a lot of light in my house I use EC quite a bit because if I tried to use just my settings I wouldn't be able to get my shutter speed up enough even w/flash. Before I figured out EC, I had perpetually under exposed pics. 90% of the time my indoor pics have +.03 or +.07. I do this to up my exposure in low light situations and would do -.03 etc. in over bright situations. (though I'd try to gt it right w/camera setting in over bright since I have more options) In the part I've bolded in your post you seem to think you need to do the opposite which leads me to believe you may be reading your meter backwards. Nikons are opposite of the histogram +on the left and - on the right. Though the D90 you can reverse it so it reads like a histogram would -on the left + on the right. Or am I totally misunderstanding what you mean?
And slightly OT but someone said awhile back that you couldn't use EC in M but I can and do quite often on the D90.

edited to add: I haven't had conditions in which I need to use spot metering so maybe that's where I'm misunderstanding?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

To be quite honest, I get confused sometimes, too, about which direction is lighter and which direction is darker (same with the shutter speed direction, but I guess that's a whole other subject. ).

For me, though, what works for the most part, is just aiming for zero and adjusting from there one way or the other each time. I figure it will eventually set in (in fact, I think it already is somewhat).

 

[wenrob]

To be quite honest, I get confused sometimes, too, about which direction is lighter and which direction is darker (same with the shutter speed direction, but I guess that's a whole other subject. ).

For me, though, what works for the most part, is just aiming for zero and adjusting from there one way or the other each time. I figure it will eventually set in (in fact, I think it already is somewhat).

I aim for zero when I'm outside but inside I just can't without having to put my camera on the lowest aperture (3.5) and jacking my ISO way up. Not a good option for me since I have moving targets, lol. Right now my "recipe" for inside my house is F5.6-8, ISO 200, shutter speed 100-125, +.03 to +.07 and flash w/diffuser and bounced. Sounds confusing but I'm happy with what I'm getting these days and nailing it 8 out of 10 times. Now my sister's house where there's plenty of light going for zero and/or just slightly over yields pretty decent results without half the effort. I tend to "chimp" the histogram as well trying to just touch the right (+side) and keep the balance of my info slightly off center w/a little more to the left (-side). I find for me I'd rather have a portrait type pic slightly under exposed then over, it's easier to bring up then bring down IMO. Usually this is less then half a stop and like I said lately I'm not having to do it at all. I'm by no means experienced but I'm much happier with my pics these days.

 

[handicap18]

I rarely use EC in camera. Since I shoot in RAW if I need to change EC I'll do it in post processing.

Wen, I don't belive that you can use EC in Manual. At least not the button. Since your already in Manual you would just adjust the shutter or aperture to get what you want. EC is basically purposely under or over exposing in P, S or A since you don't control everything. In manual, since your already controling everything, you would just make the adjustment to over or underexpose by adjusting shutter, aperture or ISO.


I check my D50 and D300. The D50 wont do EC in manual mode but the D300 will.... ? go figure.

 

[Pea-n-Me]

I rarely use EC in camera. Since I shoot in RAW if I need to change EC I'll do it in post processing.

I guess this begs the question:

Is there a difference between setting exposure (ie "indicating a correct exposure") vs deliberately under or overexposing for a desired effect? (Or is this just semantics? )

I shoot in RAW, too, but it's such a joy when I don't have to fix anything in pp, KWIM? I guess at some point you have to choose - do you set your exposure in camera or do you fix an improper exposure in post processing?

Thoughts?

 

[wenrob]

I rarely use EC in camera. Since I shoot in RAW if I need to change EC I'll do it in post processing.

Wen, I don't belive that you can use EC in Manual. At least not the button. Since your already in Manual you would just adjust the shutter or aperture to get what you want. EC is basically purposely under or over exposing in P, S or A since you don't control everything. In manual, since your already controling everything, you would just make the adjustment to over or underexpose by adjusting shutter, aperture or ISO.


I check my D50 and D300. The D50 wont do EC in manual mode but the D300 will.... ? go figure.

Yep, I can do it on the D90 with the button, I do it all the time. I can get it right using manual but then I end up w/a really shallow depth of field and/or high ISO. The DOF wouldn't be a biggie except my kids do not pose, lol, so they're moving and I'm moving making t hard to get them in focus. I've been shooting in RAW since right before Christmas.

I guess this begs the question:

Is there a difference between setting exposure (ie "indicating a correct exposure") vs deliberately under or overexposing for a desired effect? (Or is this just semantics? )

I shoot in RAW, too, but it's such a joy when I don't have to fix anything in pp, KWIM? I guess at some point you have to choose - do you set your exposure in camera or do you fix an improper exposure in post processing?

Thoughts?

I prefer to do it with EC when I can. Like you said, it's so nice to open it up in LR and not have to really mess with that aspect. Even so, I tend to under expose just a tad when they're pictures of my kids so I don't get that "chalk face" look. When I would get things right in the middle according to the histogram and/or meter I wasn't happy with the results, there was no contour in their faces.

Do either of you know if I misunderstood Disneysuitefreak's post?

 

[Pea-n-Me]

Do either of you know if I misunderstood Disneysuitefreak's post?

I took it to mean she was talking about which direction was which (but I could be wrong, LOL). IIR, in the original discussion we had (a few pages back), there was some mention that i it might be different depending on which camera you have.

 

[Groucho]

Note: I apologize ahead of time, my reply has a fair number of "my camera does this" notes - kind of necessary to explain how/why I used it on the last couple trips. These are also reasons why more advanced DSLRs make fiddling with the more advanced settings so much quicker and easier.

Thanks for the info regarding EC. So say for example if I was shooting a picture of Mickey during F! then spot metering and underexposing would help to better bring out his facial features? I can't wait to try it.

I would definitely go with spot metering for Fantasmic. Even with it, it's easy to get overexposure. In fact... looking back at my Fantasmic shots from the last trip, I started at center-weighted (oops - wasn't thinking), went to -2/3rds EC for a single shot, then went to spot metering with the same EC. That was the first shot that was worth keeping, the rest were too overexposed. I eventually went to -1 EC - but switching to spot metering was the big change, I think; I had virtually no overexposure problems after that. (Plenty of other problems, though!)

Do people use bracketing very often? I just recently came to understand what it was, though I haven't used it yet. It gives three or more shots of the same thing at different levels of exposure, say -3, 0, and +3, for instance, that way you can pick which one works best.

I did a few times last trip. I should do it more - my camera has a dedicated bracketing button. Hold it down and spin the dials - one selected number of shots to bracket (off, 3, or 5) and the other selects how much exposure to vary on each shot. I usually go for 1 stop in either direction and do three shots. It's very quick and easy, and you can configure which shot is taken first. Mine is at the default - the normal shot is taken first, then a lower, then a higher. You can also configure if you want it to take all the shots with a single button press, which I have off. What this means is that you can leave the camera in bracketing mode and any time you want to bracket, just hold down the shutter and let it fire off three shots. That's something I should definitely do more of in challenging lighting conditions.

For instance, what things are you thinking about? And then, how does that transfer to what you set up on the camera? What actual settings do you adjust - everything, each time?

I found this kind of difficult on my recent trip. Much of the time, one thing was "off" - like I left the ISO on high from the previous night, or I had the vertical IS on instead of the horizontal, etc. Little things like that, but it seemed to happen often enough that I wondered how experienced users do it.

Is there a sequence for what to check? What about an Acronym? (If not, we should come up with one. )

I'll hold off trying to describe getting a shot too much as it's often spur-of-the-moment - just keeping the eyes open for an interesting shot or angle. There are a few things that you might be thinking specifically of, like what would look good with shallow DoF, or from a fisheye, or as a reflection, or whatever. A lot of that is stuff that is talking about in the book The Photographer's Eye - I tried to remember as much as I could while walking around.

I got pretty good at resetting settings and usually didn't leave them on. My biggest issue is that I sometimes forget to use Hyperprogram mode - in the Program mode on my camera, spinning one dial immediately throws you into Av and spinning the other throws you into Tv. There's a green button you press to return to normal Program mode. The green button was definitely my friend - when picking up the camera after not using it for a few minutes, I'd usually hit the green button to quickly "reset" the settings. This would include resetting the ISO in "true" Av and Tv modes; to reset it in P mode, I'd just hold down the "OK" button to show ISO then hit the green button, which would move it back to Auto.

I rarely locked the ISO at a specific level, but I would change the Auto range - again, pretty quick and easy. Hit Fn, right-arrow to select ISO, then spin the dials to adjust the top and bottom ranges. Most of the time I'd have it max at 1600, in low light I'd go to 3200, and for really nasty stuff like HM or PotC I'd set it to 6400.

I rarely use EC in camera. Since I shoot in RAW if I need to change EC I'll do it in post processing.

Wen, I don't belive that you can use EC in Manual. At least not the button. Since your already in Manual you would just adjust the shutter or aperture to get what you want. EC is basically purposely under or over exposing in P, S or A since you don't control everything. In manual, since your already controling everything, you would just make the adjustment to over or underexpose by adjusting shutter, aperture or ISO.


I check my D50 and D300. The D50 wont do EC in manual mode but the D300 will.... ? go figure.

RAW is no match for proper exposure... once a highlight is blown (easy to do if you do silly things like take some Fantasmic shots with center-weighted like I did!), there's nothing you can do to get it back.

As for EC in Manual... It can be useful for me because all my DSLRs have had a button you hit in Manual mode that will set the shutter speed and aperture to "recommended" settings for proper exposure. Dialing in some EC will mean that it will take those into account when selecting those settings. I assume the D300 (and most other DSLRs) also have this feature.

 

[tyedye]

Does it depend what I'm taking a picture of to know what aperture I would need to set it at so everything is in focus (DOF) or is there a 'magic' number to use. I know the smaller the number f/1.4, 2.8 will have only the subject or focus point in focus and the higher the number f8, 11 etc will have more in focus in front of and behind the actual focus point, but how high of a number do you need to use for a group photo of people or say a landscape?

It seems like when I take a picture in A priority of my kids who I want to be in focus and they are not at the exact same length away from me (but they are standing one right in front of the other) that they both aren't in focus. I think I also had the camera on center focus point only, but if I change that to all focus points then it will choose the closest object, so what am I missing on how to do this right?

I'm using a Canon XS w/kit lens.

 

[DisneySuiteFreak]

Okay, now I'm confused, lol. Because I don't get a lot of light in my house I use EC quite a bit because if I tried to use just my settings I wouldn't be able to get my shutter speed up enough even w/flash. Before I figured out EC, I had perpetually under exposed pics. 90% of the time my indoor pics have +.03 or +.07. I do this to up my exposure in low light situations and would do -.03 etc. in over bright situations. (though I'd try to gt it right w/camera setting in over bright since I have more options) In the part I've bolded in your post you seem to think you need to do the opposite which leads me to believe you may be reading your meter backwards. Nikons are opposite of the histogram +on the left and - on the right. Though the D90 you can reverse it so it reads like a histogram would -on the left + on the right. Or am I totally misunderstanding what you mean?
And slightly OT but someone said awhile back that you couldn't use EC in M but I can and do quite often on the D90.

edited to add: I haven't had conditions in which I need to use spot metering so maybe that's where I'm misunderstanding?

Do either of you know if I misunderstood Disneysuitefreak's post?

Hi Wenrob. Sorry I didn't know there were responses to my previous post. YOu didn't misunderstand my post. I was confused. For some reason I know there were times I tried to ++ the EC and the lines would max out in the opposite direction. I took some good photos in POTC uusing EC at +5 in 2008 but that's it. What Grouchos said makes sense when taking photos in overall lowlight but with a bright spotlight on a person or characters face. I wouldn't have thought to lower the EC. Anyway, obviously this is something I need to continue to work through. I can adjust EC in M mode in my D90 too..

 

[Groucho]

Does it depend what I'm taking a picture of to know what aperture I would need to set it at so everything is in focus (DOF) or is there a 'magic' number to use. I know the smaller the number f/1.4, 2.8 will have only the subject or focus point in focus and the higher the number f8, 11 etc will have more in focus in front of and behind the actual focus point, but how high of a number do you need to use for a group photo of people or say a landscape?

The number varies depending on the focal length and how far away you are.

Almost no new lenses have them any more, but back in the day, lenses would have a depth of field scale printed on them. Here is an example.

The green lines tell you what will be in focus as any given aperture. The distance markings (in yellow) are on the focus ring, and aperture in white is the actual ring. In the middle, the red line shows you exactly where focus is pointing at, and you can see how much is in focus by looking at the green aperture markings going in either direction.

Currently, that lens is set for its "hyperfocal" distance at F8 - in other words, if you look at the F8 markings, you'll see that the farther amount in focus is infinity, while the closest is somewhere around .65 meters. That means that at F8, everything between .65 meters and infinity will be in focus. (This is more than most lenses, as this particular lens is a fisheye so has a larger depth of field.)

As I said, this varies with focal length, so zoom lenses will often have markings that fan out a bit. Here's a photo I happen to have online of a lens that I've been trying to sell. It's a 70-210mm zoom and the 70mm markings are at the top, 210mm at the bottom. As you can see, the depth of field diminished quite a bit as you zoom in further.

In reality, you're not likely to spend your time staring at the markings (even if you had them!) and puzzling it out, especially with an autofocus lens. It's more likely going to be trial and error, and later getting an idea ahead of time of what settings you'll need based on experience in the past. If you're having problems getting both in focus, take a quick look at the aperture of the inadequate shot, then go to Aperture Priority mode and select a smaller (higher number) aperture and take the shot over and see if that gives you what you want.