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The Running Thread - 2020

ATTQOTD:
When I hear "Club runDisney" it sounds to me more like an online thing, not a "service" (or whatever it's supposed to be).
But I'm imagining something like maybe a dedicated social media platform, with like games where you can pick a character to run around the parks as. Maybe it could serve as a place to consolidate your runDisney race stats, and you could keep your page as a collage of your favourite on-course pictures or something too.
So free, it would be free.

Although now that I'm thinking about this further, maybe you could "win" a free registration to a race by completing certain games?
 
QOTD: Todays question is a suggestion from a fellow poster. Recently runDisney announced "Club runDisney" with different levels. If you were to create this for Disney, what would you change and what price would you put to it? What are you thoughts on the current setup as is?

I haven't thought enough about what I'd want in it. What they're currently offering isn't it, certainly.
 


ATTQOTD:
1) Post-marathon recovery for me is usually two days completely off, with just easy walking, then I typically get in the pool for some easy swims and that helps my legs feel a TON better. Also some easy spins on the bike. I get back to running when I can go up and down the stairs without pain!

2) I really like @rteetz 's suggestions regarding club rD! What I would love for them to do is some kind of loyalty program, where you get points or something for every race you've done (and a marathon would give you more points than a 5K). Then your # of points would translate into some kind of tiered benefit thing, that can include things like early expo access, a special magnet, tier 1 pricing access anytime, etc. Basically the rD equivalent of DCL's Castaway Cay club. Maybe some nominal fee to join?
 
Time to call in the expert opinions here, @DopeyBadger and anyone that uses low heart rate training.
I’ll try to keep it as short as possible, should I run slower? Based on past advice I have slowed my long run considerably and in the 2-1/2 years I have been seriously running I have noticed huge gains in speed and endurance. What doesn’t seem to be improving is my easy run heart rate. I have always been higher than expected, at 48 my true max heart rate is 195. I have verified my watch readings twice with a chest strap in a workout at 170 bpm and with both a strap and physically counting at 150 so I have to trust my data for the most part. It should be noted that at 165 I can converse easily and really feel like it’s efortless. I don’t really feel out of breath until around 180. Going with that max rate and my research my long runs shouldn’t be more than 70% which is 136-137 bpm. Interestingly enough I came across Maffetone low hr training that states simply subtract your age from 180 and that is your easy workout which would be 132. To get that low I’m looking at 14 min miles maybe even 15. That seems crazy slow when my favorite run is 10 miles at 10 min/mile, I can run a 10k at 8:20/mile and run/walk a half at 8:21.
Do I need to slow down to see improvement?
And what would that do for my immediate future plans, running princess easy then focusing on speed between long runs in hopes of a 1:45 half at Star Wars?
I afraid that if I don’t start getting the hr down I’m going to plateau and not be able to improve overall speed, but maybe I should just keep at what I’m doing (usually around 11 min easy run/160 bpm and 12 min really easy run/150 bpm) and be more patient, maybe I’m looking for too much improvement in a short time?
Thanks for any input
 
Last edited:
Hi there.
Does anyone have any suggestions on arm sleeves? I need a solid red pair for a running costume. I checked amazon and there are a billion options, but I’d like to get some input if anyone has any experience. I don’t want them to irritate my skin or spend too much. Also does anyone like running in them generally? Specifically in the heat?

I think I have an Oiselle pair, but I really don't wear them much. One thing I've found that you have to watch for is chafing at the top of your arm. If the sleeve makes some "arm bulge" up toward the shoulder end, that bulge may end up rubbing against your underarm region and chafing more than you normally would in that area. Conversely, a seam or ridge at the end of the arm sleeve can then rub on your underarm region and chafe there, too. With all of this, the conditions for me to want to wear them don't happen very often. :)
 


Hi there.
Does anyone have any suggestions on arm sleeves? I need a solid red pair for a running costume. I checked amazon and there are a billion options, but I’d like to get some input if anyone has any experience. I don’t want them to irritate my skin or spend too much. Also does anyone like running in them generally? Specifically in the heat?

I live in FL and wear arm sleeves with a tank top or short sleeve shirt when it’s cool out instead of a long sleeve shirt. I am a hot and sweaty runner so I like the ability to roll them down a bit if I start to get too warm. I usually don’t spend a lot on them so if I really feel the need to toss them during a race I’m not out a lot of money.
 
ATTQOTD:

I see the “Club” as a money grab. I thought a few of you made some interesting suggestions on what would make it worth while. But it just seems like Disney continues to become more and more expensive and at times offers things that are just not worth the cost (IMO). I would likely never spend the money for any of the tiers. Race weekend is expensive enough as it is! Costs keeping going up as they have and I will have to get a second job to fund my runDisney habits!
 
Time to call in the expert opinions here, @DopeyBadger and anyone that uses low heart rate training.
I’ll try to keep it as short as possible, should I run slower? Based on past advice I have slowed my long run considerably and in the 2-1/2 years I have been seriously running I have noticed huge gains in speed and endurance. What doesn’t seem to be improving is my easy run heart rate. I have always been higher than expected, at 48 my true max heart rate is 195. I have verified my watch readings twice with a chest strap in a workout at 170 bpm and with both a strap and physically counting at 150 so I have to trust my data for the most part. It should be noted that at 165 I can converse easily and really feel like it’s efortless. I don’t really feel out of breath until around 180. Going with that max rate and my research my long runs shouldn’t be more than 70% which is 136-137 bpm. Interestingly enough I came across Maffetone low hr training that states simply subtract your age from 180 and that is your easy workout which would be 132. To get that low I’m looking at 14 min miles maybe even 15. That seems crazy slow when my favorite run is 10 miles at 10 min/mile, I can run a 10k at 8:20/mile and run/walk a half at 8:21.
Do I need to slow down to see improvement?
And what would that do for my immediate future plans, running princess easy then focusing on speed between long runs in hopes of a 1:45 half at Star Wars?
I afraid that if I don’t start getting the hr down I’m going to plateau and not be able to improve overall speed, but maybe I should just keep at what I’m doing (usually around 11 min easy run/160 bpm and 12 min really easy run/150 bpm) and be more patient, maybe I’m looking for too much improvement in a short time?
Thanks for any input

I have no advice, but I am very similar to you. Younger, at 34, but my heart rate always trends high. And I have wondered if I need to seriously slow down my training runs, but then they would take so much longer and not be as enjoyable to me.
 
Time to call in the expert opinions here, @DopeyBadger and anyone that uses low heart rate training.
I’ll try to keep it as short as possible, should I run slower? Based on past advice I have slowed my long run considerably and in the 2-1/2 years I have been seriously running I have noticed huge gains in speed and endurance. What doesn’t seem to be improving is my easy run heart rate. I have always been higher than expected, at 48 my true max heart rate is 195. I have verified my watch readings twice with a chest strap in a workout at 170 bpm and with both a strap and physically counting at 150 so I have to trust my data for the most part. It should be noted that at 165 I can converse easily and really feel like it’s efortless. I don’t really feel out of breath until around 180. Going with that max rate and my research my long runs shouldn’t be more than 70% which is 136-137 bpm. Interestingly enough I came across Maffetone low hr training that states simply subtract your age from 180 and that is your easy workout which would be 132. To get that low I’m looking at 14 min miles maybe even 15. That seems crazy slow when my favorite run is 10 miles at 10 min/mile, I can run a 10k at 8:20/mile and run/walk a half at 8:21.
Do I need to slow down to see improvement?
And what would that do for my immediate future plans, running princess easy then focusing on speed between long runs in hopes of a 1:45 half at Star Wars?
I afraid that if I don’t start getting the hr down I’m going to plateau and not be able to improve overall speed, but maybe I should just keep at what I’m doing (usually around 11 min easy run/160 bpm and 12 min really easy run/150 bpm) and be more patient, maybe I’m looking for too much improvement in a short time?
Thanks for any input

The root question seems to be, "How do I improve my easy run HR?" And I'm not positive of the answer, but I'd say your easy run HR is when you're running and it feels nearly effortless. Like you're literally barely trying. That's how I would personally describe EA pace (see below). So I'm not sure I ever improved the HR at which it feels effortless, but rather the pace at which it occurred has gotten faster.

My preferred method is Heart Rate Reserve which takes into account both the maxHR and restingHR.

Screen Shot 2020-01-28 at 7.39.02 PM.png

Screen Shot 2020-01-28 at 7.38.49 PM.png

I used a lower restingHR and higher restingHR to give a sort of range of values to see. Essentially, it would appear your "easy" zone would be around 150 or less. So that's higher than either of the two values you had.

Personally though, I prefer to use HR as a secondary measure of training. It's something I look at post-run to monitor the changes in the HRvPace relationship. It's important to remember that HR does not exist in a vacuum when it comes to pace. The HRvPace relationship can change based on the weather, the elevation profile of the run, stress, etc. With that being said, looking at in a zoomed-out perspective can allow you to see the bigger changes.

Screen Shot 2020-01-28 at 7.45.17 PM.png

Screen Shot 2020-01-28 at 7.45.29 PM.png

Two graphs showing the pace at which I can run at a certain HR changing on a bi-weekly basis or from year to year. These improvements come in line with an ability to run faster races. Both of these graphs were made with data where I did my best to control for variables other than HR and Pace.

I prefer to use effort and current fitness pacing as my gold standards for training around. So of the 4 PRs in your signature, the HM is the best from an equivalency standpoint. So I'd choose pacing based on that. Admittedly though, it's unusual to see a HM PR that betters a 5k/10k PR unless there's been a significant amount of time since the 5k/10k races.

Screen Shot 2020-01-28 at 7.47.50 PM.png

The HM PR would suggest a training methodology that tends to average around a 9:45 min/mile and about 80% of training at 9:29 min/mile or slower. So then the follow-up question would be, should/could I train slower than Easy #1 (10:26)? According to Tom Schwartz's data (which he has not made publicly available), he claims that you can train as slow as +5 min from 5k pace and still reap the benefits from easy/recovery running. So that would be something like a 12:40 min/mile is still within reason for a nice and slow easy run. At the end of the day, I usually say "Don't go faster than EA (or EB), but you're absolutely welcome to go slower." And there are plenty of conditions, like super hot days or running up a hill, where I'd recommend to go far slower than even the paces above.

I think a training plan that balances both the slow easy/recovery end with the faster end usually leads to a good cycle over cycle return. A dichotomous training plan that becomes specific once the race gets closer. So the further out from the HM the more you should be working on 1 mile, 3k, 5k and super easy pacing. Then as the HM gets closer, you focus on LT, HM, and LR pacing.

Lastly, your goal is a 1:45 HM. That's a 4% improvement from where you are now. That's not an unreasonable gain to see in a single cycle, or maybe two cycles. It depends on how long you've been training for and how different what you've done will be from what you do next. Additionally, not all races are created equal. It would be somewhat unreasonable to expect a massive improvement if say the HM PR of 1:49 was set on a downhill course that had nice cool temps and a tail wind VS when an "A" race comes up that's super hilly and like a billion degrees. The conditions of race day will certainly impact the ability to "see gains". That's where we circle back and look at the HRvPace data and possibly can interpret that information to show that gains were made even though maybe that single race day didn't have the outcome desired.

If you want to know if you've maxed out your speed, then I've got a simple run test. Run a mile faster than 6:47. If you can, or have, then your PRs will drop further when you have the endurance to match. A different workout that tends to be a good indicator for me to watch for is something with 200m or 400m intervals at not all out sprint, but a very hard consistent effort. How does that then compare to a 6:47 min/mile pace? When I see someone generally outperform their 1 mile runs or their 3k runs, that's when I have a good idea as to how much further they can go just by improving their endurance.

As for rate of gains, this is my graph for HM and M performance over the last nearly 8 years, 11,000 running miles, and 7,000 indoor cycling miles. I'd say for me personally, the game changing moments were Hansons marathon training in Fall 2015 and Daniels 10k training in Spring 2017. Those are when I saw the highest rate of return/biggest gains from the prior training cycle.

Screen Shot 2020-01-28 at 8.20.53 PM.png
 
2) I really like @rteetz 's suggestions regarding club rD! What I would love for them to do is some kind of loyalty program, where you get points or something for every race you've done (and a marathon would give you more points than a 5K). Then your # of points would translate into some kind of tiered benefit thing, that can include things like early expo access, a special magnet, tier 1 pricing access anytime, etc. Basically the rD equivalent of DCL's Castaway Cay club. Maybe some nominal fee to join?

One thing that Brazen does here is their "streaker" awards, given out for running (or volunteering at) every race they put on in a calendar year. (...no, not what you were thinking. This isn't the group that manages Bay to Breakers.) They keep a numbered list of streakers and you get a custom shirt with your number on it, among other things.

Some sort of special medal for "Ran at least a 5k at all four race weekends", "Ran all four challenges", or something like that would be nice, especially now that Coast-to-Coast isn't available.
 
ATTQOTD:
I'm still playing with the amounts, but here's my thought for the new and improved Club runDisney:
Basic Tier - $25
- Early Registration (2 days before AP/DVC)
- Earn loyalty points (1 point per km raced), which can be redeemed for exclusive merchandise
- Access to expo lounge with snacks + non-alcoholic beverages (alcoholic beverages available for purchase)

Bronze Tier - $100
- Basic Tier benefits
- 5% discount on all race registrations
- 1 hr early admission to expo, race registration required (club members without race registration will not be allowed into the expo until it opens to the public - your membership card will be scanned to confirm that you have an active registration for the race weekend)

Silver Tier - $250
- Previous Tier benefits
- 10% discount on race registrations
- 2x loyalty points
- 2 hour early expo admission (race registration required)
- Member-exclusive pin

Gold Tier - $500
- Previous Tier benefits
- 20% discount on challenge registrations, 15% on individual races
- Option to have bib and pre-order merchandise delivered to your hotel room
- Members-only jacket
- 3x loyalty points on challenge registrations, 2x loyalty points on all other registrations
- 1 free alcoholic beverage in the expo lounge per race weekend
Loyalty points can be redeemed for exclusive club merchandise, including specialty ears, tumblers, pins, and clothing.
Early expo admission is limited to club members with active race registrations for the current weekend. All other club members can enter the expo when it opens to the public.


If this was the real club runDisney ... I'd go for basic. I don't really need the expo early admission, and the discount only evens out if you're gonna register for all the races. But this feels Disney but also not too super ridiculous.
 
ATQOTD: I absolutely see it as a money grab. I was just saying last week how the race itself seems to not even be worth the money anymore and now this? I hate the moving up of the corral part of it.

I liked Ryan’s idea of the bib being sent to the hotel but I will take it a step further and say send it home. This way someone flying in Friday night they can still do the challenge on most weekends and not worry about issues with the bibs.

You could also do a “fast pass” type system where club members can cut lines along the course for character stops. Have two lines for character stops and members go to the right and non members stay in the regular line and as long as there are people in the member line they get pics first.

I don’t know how much I would charge but those would be two of my suggestions.
 
Thinking out loud...

I came back from MW 2020 with mixed feelings: I had completed Dopey in good health, everything Disney had offered was fine but the focus of the weekend, me and DD running Disney, was lost by some in our party pushing me out of my happy, carefree Disney bubble. In short, I am spoiled and need a makeover.

I looked at different options:
  • Princess race weekend: Not fan of the Half course and too early, I would miss all the planning and prepping fun.
  • Sometimes in March: Hard to justify to anyone including myself.
  • Star Wars race weekend: Maybe.
  • May: Already at Ottawa Marathon Weekend.
  • June-July-August: Vacation with the family already planned.
  • DLP race weekend: Right when DD starts high school and we have a wedding to attend.
  • September: Already at Montreal RnR Marathon.
  • October: Already running Petit train du nord Marathon on the first weekend then the month is open! Maybe NYC Marathon.
  • November: Maybe WnD race weekend.
  • December: Other engagements.
  • January: That seems so far! I would only do the Marathon.
I am now trying to weight two of the options.
WnD solo trip: Fly direct, stay 3 nights onsite Value, get 1 park/1day ticket, run the Half and go to the included Epcot party. Estimated cost 1300USD.
vs
NYC Marathon solo trip: Bus, get an international package with 3 nights hotel, guaranteed entry or win the lottery (saves about 350USD).
Estimated cost 2600USD.
But what do I do solo in NYC (I have been a few times)? So adding another option...
NYC Marathon family trip: Car and parking, 3 nights hotel stay (missed school!), guaranteed entry or win the lottery (-350USD).
Estimated cost 3500USD.
Quick question, what would Halloween be like for tourist teenagers in the middle of Manhattan?

With the recent talk on racecation does anyone have any ideas one way or another?
 
The root question seems to be, "How do I improve my easy run HR?" And I'm not positive of the answer, but I'd say your easy run HR is when you're running and it feels nearly effortless. Like you're literally barely trying. That's how I would personally describe EA pace (see below). So I'm not sure I ever improved the HR at which it feels effortless, but rather the pace at which it occurred has gotten faster.

My preferred method is Heart Rate Reserve which takes into account both the maxHR and restingHR.

View attachment 469410

View attachment 469411

I used a lower restingHR and higher restingHR to give a sort of range of values to see. Essentially, it would appear your "easy" zone would be around 150 or less. So that's higher than either of the two values you had.

Personally though, I prefer to use HR as a secondary measure of training. It's something I look at post-run to monitor the changes in the HRvPace relationship. It's important to remember that HR does not exist in a vacuum when it comes to pace. The HRvPace relationship can change based on the weather, the elevation profile of the run, stress, etc. With that being said, looking at in a zoomed-out perspective can allow you to see the bigger changes.

View attachment 469415

View attachment 469414

Two graphs showing the pace at which I can run at a certain HR changing on a bi-weekly basis or from year to year. These improvements come in line with an ability to run faster races. Both of these graphs were made with data where I did my best to control for variables other than HR and Pace.

I prefer to use effort and current fitness pacing as my gold standards for training around. So of the 4 PRs in your signature, the HM is the best from an equivalency standpoint. So I'd choose pacing based on that. Admittedly though, it's unusual to see a HM PR that betters a 5k/10k PR unless there's been a significant amount of time since the 5k/10k races.

View attachment 469417

The HM PR would suggest a training methodology that tends to average around a 9:45 min/mile and about 80% of training at 9:29 min/mile or slower. So then the follow-up question would be, should/could I train slower than Easy #1 (10:26)? According to Tom Schwartz's data (which he has not made publicly available), he claims that you can train as slow as +5 min from 5k pace and still reap the benefits from easy/recovery running. So that would be something like a 12:40 min/mile is still within reason for a nice and slow easy run. At the end of the day, I usually say "Don't go faster than EA (or EB), but you're absolutely welcome to go slower." And there are plenty of conditions, like super hot days or running up a hill, where I'd recommend to go far slower than even the paces above.

I think a training plan that balances both the slow easy/recovery end with the faster end usually leads to a good cycle over cycle return. A dichotomous training plan that becomes specific once the race gets closer. So the further out from the HM the more you should be working on 1 mile, 3k, 5k and super easy pacing. Then as the HM gets closer, you focus on LT, HM, and LR pacing.

Lastly, your goal is a 1:45 HM. That's a 4% improvement from where you are now. That's not an unreasonable gain to see in a single cycle, or maybe two cycles. It depends on how long you've been training for and how different what you've done will be from what you do next. Additionally, not all races are created equal. It would be somewhat unreasonable to expect a massive improvement if say the HM PR of 1:49 was set on a downhill course that had nice cool temps and a tail wind VS when an "A" race comes up that's super hilly and like a billion degrees. The conditions of race day will certainly impact the ability to "see gains". That's where we circle back and look at the HRvPace data and possibly can interpret that information to show that gains were made even though maybe that single race day didn't have the outcome desired.

If you want to know if you've maxed out your speed, then I've got a simple run test. Run a mile faster than 6:47. If you can, or have, then your PRs will drop further when you have the endurance to match. A different workout that tends to be a good indicator for me to watch for is something with 200m or 400m intervals at not all out sprint, but a very hard consistent effort. How does that then compare to a 6:47 min/mile pace? When I see someone generally outperform their 1 mile runs or their 3k runs, that's when I have a good idea as to how much further they can go just by improving their endurance.

As for rate of gains, this is my graph for HM and M performance over the last nearly 8 years, 11,000 running miles, and 7,000 indoor cycling miles. I'd say for me personally, the game changing moments were Hansons marathon training in Fall 2015 and Daniels 10k training in Spring 2017. Those are when I saw the highest rate of return/biggest gains from the prior training cycle.

View attachment 469463

That is a ton of helpful info, thank you.
My resting heart rate has averaged 60 for the last 5 months so my HRR is about in the middle of your two examples, I will try to stay under 150 on the long runs. It seems like you say, the bpm aren’t going down but my pace that gets it there is increasing.
The PRs are current but the HM is a run/walk as compared to continuous runs for the 5 and 10. I can definitely get better times using intervals, I just enjoy running the whole time more so I only run walk when looking for a long race PR. In April I will most likely line up with the Galloway pacers (4:00/:30sec)
 
CTTQOTD (Corollary to :) ): The responses to changes and alternatives to the runDisney Club have been interesting. I don't have anything to offer but I was thinking "clubs" based on Disney mileage. I've added my Disney miles to my sig. So if there is the de facto 100, 250, 500, 1000 delineation to "Clubs", I'd be in the 250 Club.
 
Thinking out loud...

I came back from MW 2020 with mixed feelings: I had completed Dopey in good health, everything Disney had offered was fine but the focus of the weekend, me and DD running Disney, was lost by some in our party pushing me out of my happy, carefree Disney bubble. In short, I am spoiled and need a makeover.

I looked at different options:
  • Princess race weekend: Not fan of the Half course and too early, I would miss all the planning and prepping fun.
  • Sometimes in March: Hard to justify to anyone including myself.
  • Star Wars race weekend: Maybe.
  • May: Already at Ottawa Marathon Weekend.
  • June-July-August: Vacation with the family already planned.
  • DLP race weekend: Right when DD starts high school and we have a wedding to attend.
  • September: Already at Montreal RnR Marathon.
  • October: Already running Petit train du nord Marathon on the first weekend then the month is open! Maybe NYC Marathon.
  • November: Maybe WnD race weekend.
  • December: Other engagements.
  • January: That seems so far! I would only do the Marathon.
I am now trying to weight two of the options.
WnD solo trip: Fly direct, stay 3 nights onsite Value, get 1 park/1day ticket, run the Half and go to the included Epcot party. Estimated cost 1300USD.
vs
NYC Marathon solo trip: Bus, get an international package with 3 nights hotel, guaranteed entry or win the lottery (saves about 350USD).
Estimated cost 2600USD.
But what do I do solo in NYC (I have been a few times)? So adding another option...
NYC Marathon family trip: Car and parking, 3 nights hotel stay (missed school!), guaranteed entry or win the lottery (-350USD).
Estimated cost 3500USD.
Quick question, what would Halloween be like for tourist teenagers in the middle of Manhattan?

With the recent talk on racecation does anyone have any ideas one way or another?

I’m a little biased here because I just about always choose Disney. I really enjoy W and D weekend and will be back for the fourth year in a row this November. A couple reasons are we can make a long weekend with only limited school days missed for my daughter because our local schools are closed on Election Day. This year we can go Thurs night to Wed night with Veterans Day and she only misses a Fri/Mon. Of course that doesn’t matter with a solo trip. What is nice though is the weather, up north winter is coming and early November is a great way to get a last minute trip of warm sunshine. I would add a fourth night and just take a day to do nothing but relax. You will have earned it.
 
With the recent talk on racecation does anyone have any ideas one way or another?
I did the NYC marathon in 2016 and it was an epic experience, so if you have an opportunity to do it and can afford it, I say go for it! As to whether or not to bring family along - if the teens are interested in all that NYC has to offer then absolutely bring them along. But I know that teens can sometimes be a bit, ahem, apathetic, so if they aren't excited about seeing NYC then just go solo and have fun. There are so many things to do there - I have been 3 times over the last few years and there is still stuff I haven't done!
 
ATTQOTD: I don't think Disney had any intention of making the Club runDisney anything more than just a club people can say they are in. While most people want something in return for their $$, others will pay the $$ just to say they are in an exclusive club. (Think D23 "club" which is pretty much the same thing). While all your ideas are awesome, they all cost a lot of money for a company like Disney to implement and manage so add about 5-10X to all your suggested prices and then ask yourself if you would do it. We like to call these things "money grabs" but that is exactly what Disney is there to do - make money for its stockholders. They are basically selling a jacket and a few meaningless perks to people who want to say they are in an exclusive club. I don't see anything wrong with that. Will I pay the $$? No. But it has been proven time and time again that others will.
 

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